Thoughts on a 6.5 grendel long range precision rifle for my daughter?

[BoilerUP]

Can one really get good performance at extended range from a 6x45 with AR mag length restrictions? Seems like 105-class and even 95s would be awfully deep in the case even at 2.28-2.30" COAL.

I'm sure they'd shoot, but with enough velocity to beat a 223 shooting 77s?

 

[fmsniper]

1000 yard group 6.5 grendel 19.5 inch barrel 123 grain factory AA ammo

 

[AKONA]

Can one really get good performance at extended range from a 6x45 with AR mag length restrictions? Seems like 105-class and even 95s would be awfully deep in the case even at 2.28-2.30" COAL.

I'm sure they'd shoot, but with enough velocity to beat a 223 shooting 77s?

Yes.

A 6x45-long with a tad extra free-bore and from a VLD magazine (Single stack loading) @ 2.46 COAL one can get to 2690-2720fps form AR15 and 50fps more from a bolt action using 105's. G1 are around .510-.530.
The nice thing about the AR one can go from 75gr (2950fps) thorugh 90gr (2750fps) in regular magazines to the 95gr and 105gr in VLD setup all in the same package using many times discarded brass form the recycle bin. Nato LC plant, WCC is great for that. Amax and nosler have great values in bulk buys vs. lapua or berger. The berger 95gr is a very good one though.

The downside is one has to reload but it is a very forgiving round inherently accurate and ideal even for beginners to get right. Corbon and Blackhills sell 6x45 ammo but it is expensive an designed for hunting/defense anyway. The only modification for the lower is the bolt catch that needs to be slightly rebated for the VLD magazines. A 5 minutes deal piece of cake.

 

[BoilerUP]

Who makes these VLD magazines?

Google sez DPMS made some but no longer...probably others too?

 

[AKONA]

Who makes these VLD magazines?

Google sez DPMS made some but no longer...probably others too?

Yes DPMS made them but then they stopped so they are very hard to get.
I make my own now. I also use the same in the Rem.700.
This allows me to replicate M118LR type of trajectory and even better but on a fraction
of the budget.

Also find the max COAL of your chamber with the bullets you want to use.
That you can start right away. Ideally what you want is the max coal you
can chamber to match the max COAL from the VLD magazine. That
way you can maximize the use of your equipment.

I am at work now. More later.

 

[BoilerUP]

I appreciate the insight.

If I could (safely/reasonably) achieve 2600fps from a 20" 6x45 AR with 105/107s, it would be HIGHLY relevant to my interests.

 

[jbjh]

To the OP; just remember what you are trying to accomplish here. The goal is to get your nine-year-old daughter comfortable with shooting centerfire, and in that vein there are several things going on that you need to keep in mind.

As the father of two little girls, I'm going to guess that your daughter doesn't even tip past 100 pounds yet. Combine that with her lack of experience behind the trigger and the AR's light weight, going up a caliber might mean you are starting to get at cross purposes to yourself.

If i were me, I'd build her a nice heavy barreled upper with a JP recoil eliminator on it and she can bang away out to 600 with no problems. Conversely, you can build her a nice heavy barrel Savage bolt gun and she can grow into it, both in size and caliber. By changing the bolt head, and the barrel, you can shoot everything from 223-class cartridges on up.

Just as you got her riding a bike starting with training wheels and not pushing her down a hill on a mountain bike, 1000 yards is a long way for novice. Start slow, make it fun and comfortable and she'll start to dig whooping her old man's ass in X-count

 

[AKONA]

I appreciate the insight.

If I could (safely/reasonably) achieve 2600fps from a 20" 6x45 AR with 105/107s, it would be HIGHLY relevant to my interests.

105gr VLD bullet @ 2700fps would be at max pressure that is 62-63K PSI on the AR15. Those would be the hottest probably some hunting loads.
Accuracy loads I am running milder loads at 2650fps from a 20" AR15 barrel. Lothar walther and krieger 1:8 twist. This and a nice bolt/group is key.
#45, 450 or federal hard/match primers with a clean ball powder will do the trick. I am liking CFE lately but there others as good that will produce clean full burns.
Need to work just a tad on the throat/freebore to accommodate the best bullets in the 6mm department.
PTG unithroater reamer is a good one.

PErformance wise is not to beat a world record or throw a party or anything but it does very well and can better popular calibers in trajectory and transonic reach while being
very economical and super accurate to shoot. It is inherently accurate. After many years I am starting to believe one can piss inside a 6x45 case and still produce submoa results.
I have oceans of data so if you need anything let me know. Among other calibers we have a nice following here locally between some retired old pegs.

I just want to make clear with the OP and everyone that this is a nice alternative to the LBC/Grendel that I love too but the VLD mags will only work with the 223r parent
and not the russian or 6.8 bolt heads. Shooting is always a trade off of some sort.

My son just started to put another R700 for this caliber and AR15 magazine so if you want and in order to avoid hijacking this thread we can move into a new one to document the
evolution and merits of the nifty 6x45.

I love to shoot other calibers but this one is something to consider and a very easy and sensible choice for many folks.

Here a small pic with a line up of some AR15 alternatives...

From left to right: 6x45 85 and 90gr loads at std COAL., 6.5mmBR and 6mmBR cases and then two 6x45-Long VLD loads one a 100gr sp hunting and the 105amax that is a good performer and great value like other amaxes in many calibers. Both alternatives have a transonic range of 1100 yards with the right bullets. They shoot flatter and further than the LBC/grendel. The strong parent cases do make a huge difference.

 

[LRRPF52]

I'm still supersonic out to 1318yds with my 16" Grendel, but at 4400ft ASL and 80 F, with the Hornady box ammo 123gr A-MAX. Couldn't believe it myself, but I was hitting POA/POI at 1200yds this summer as fast as I could break the trigger. It was a rare moment in the day where there was no wind.

I don't know of any factory ammunition that fits in the AR15 that can beat that type of performance.

 

[AKONA]

I'm still supersonic out to 1318yds with my 16" Grendel, but at 4400ft ASL and 80 F, with the Hornady box ammo 123gr A-MAX. Couldn't believe it myself, but I was hitting POA/POI at 1200yds this summer as fast as I could break the trigger. It was a rare moment in the day where there was no wind.

I don't know of any factory ammunition that fits in the AR15 that can beat that type of performance.

What commercial ammunition and speed at the muzzle?

I have been shooting the grendel and LBC since it came out in both 18" and 24" poles and nothing makes it that far.
I think you need to review your logs and math but lets see what type of commercial ammo you are using.

 

[AKONA]

I don't know of any factory ammunition that fits in the AR15 that can beat that type of performance.

One simple example of factory ammo to shoot flatter and further....

6mm Norma BR DL - Norma

 

[dragbag]

What commercial ammunition and speed at the muzzle?

I have been shooting the grendel and LBC since it came out in both 18" and 24" poles and nothing makes it that far.
I think you need to review your logs and math but lets see what type of commercial ammo you are using.

Pretty clear in LRRPF52's post what factory ammo. "with HORNADY BOX AMMO 123gr A-MAX". Just a little heads up he knows a little about the 6.5 Grendel. Even better is he is always more then willing to give help and GOOD information. I don't know him other then thru some PM's on here, but I do know he knows his chit and is a good guy.

 

[AKONA]

Pretty clear in LRRPF52's post what factory ammo. "with HORNADY BOX AMMO 123gr A-MAX". Just a little heads up he knows a little about the 6.5 Grendel. Even better is he is always more then willing to give help and GOOD information. I don't know him other then thru some PM's on here, but I do know he knows his chit and is a good guy.

I have my own data in most commercial loads. AA, hornady, Black Hills and even Wolf(Priv) loads.
The the 123gr Grendel hornady from a 18" LBC 5r barrel for example (super accurate and 2" inch longer than the advertised).
Shot 2 10 rd strings average. 500ft ASL. temp.28C. 2483fps. break speed happens at 1100yd.
So might be a tad longer with wind in the back but still.

The same round in same conditions from a 24" AA upper 2591fps.

In contrast the 6.5mmBR feeding from the same magazine with same bullet and a 20" krieger 5R barrel shoots 2750-2800fps.
Break speed in same conditions is 1300yds and 8.7mill hold at 1000yds with zero at 200yrd.

All measured with RCBS ammo master and/or magnetospeed.

6BR even flatter.

So, don't get me wrong. I like the LBC/grendel but I just wanted something that could shoot flatter and further yet still from the same AR15 mags.
I just don't see how a 16" 6.5G. upper with hornady or any other commercial load can get out there before transonic and accurately.
Math just doesn't add up. But what do I know anyway? LOL

 

[mwroseberry]

I have been talking to a couple buddies that shoot precision rifles and I expressed that I couldn't wait for my oldest daughter to shoot matches with me. I don't get hyper competitive in regards to some on here and a day at a match for daddy/daughter time would be awesome. I will probably never have the ability to place in the top 50% at say the GAP grind but I like it so I keep plugging away trying to get better and feel that this could be great building for my daughter who absolutely loves shooting .22 lr to show her to put in the work and you always get better. I was really set on getting another rifle in 6.5 creedmoor so my 9 year old daughter could shoot with me and I could be her wind dummy but she is recoil sensitive and doesn't want to shoot it anymore (after maybe 3 shots). I have read a lot about recoil sensitivity for kids and the first stated FACT is don't push them into a rifle they are not ready for or you may ruin them from shooting all together. Fast forward a couple weeks and I have a buddy that has a AR platform chambered in 6.8 spc that he let her shoot to see if she could deer hunt this year and she had no problems with the 6.8. She is comfortable first off with a AR due to the fact I started her on AR "type" with the Mossberg 715 .22lr and I think this helped a great deal and then the AR's seem to not have as much recoil. So I looked at the 6.5 Grendel and there are guys swearing they are doing 1000 yds shots on 12" steel with Grendel. Its hard with these newish calibers to figure out myth, propaganda, and the truth. If I invest in a Grendel for her, do you all think that she may be able to shoot out to say 200-1000 yds in team matches with me or just wait until she isn't recoil sensitive on my 6.5 creedmoor?

My rig kicks like a puppy dog which you can see from the attached video. I do have a 4 port brake on it but the kick is equal or less than a 223 version of the same rifle with a flash hidder. I would highly recommend the grendel and I will be running it much more next year in matches.

Rayners 2013 Sniper Match - Woods Run - Merritt - YouTube

Good luck,
Merritt

 

[dragbag]

He states it was at 4400 feet and 80 degrees, Attention to details.

 

[AKONA]

He states it was at 4400 feet and 80 degrees, Attention to details.

I know. I didn't miss anything. Even at that altitude and atmospherics the math doesn't work. break speed at 1200yds.
If one cannot make it with a longer upper other with 16" upper can not get there before break speed.
I am not posting to be argumentative, but collaborative ...yet curious.

 

[LRRPF52]

What commercial ammunition and speed at the muzzle?

I have been shooting the grendel and LBC since it came out in both 18" and 24" poles and nothing makes it that far.
I think you need to review your logs and math but lets see what type of commercial ammo you are using.

If you would have told me the same thing, I would have thought BS as well. The Hornady 123gr A-MAX box ammo clocked an average 2470fps for me that day, 15ft from the muzzle using a Chrony Beta Master. I plugged the data into Strelok, and it gave me 14.4 Mils.

The biggest variable for me compared to you is that I'm much higher above sea level, the temp was 80F, and the air is often very dry up here. Hornady advertises 2350fps for a 16" Grendel, which doesn't make any sense, since every 16" Grendel owner is in the low to high 2400's. 2350fps is more like a slow 14.5", or fast 12.5" Grendel with the 123gr A-MAX. My best guess is that Hornady used their 14.5" AA Grendel Carbine (with perm-attach muzzle device for 16") from their 8th Edition, as their site lists 2350 for a 16", and 2580 for a 24". That 123gr A-MAX is a stout load in my experience, considering that I'm getting 20-30fps short of an 18".

I've been doing a lot of load development with CFE223, and have been able to easily get into the mid-2500's with the 123gr A-MAX. I need to post that data here in a separate thread if I haven't already. It makes me look at the 16" Grendel in a new light.

But yes, you're not going to be staying away from the supersonic barrier in New Yorkistan like we can in the Rockies. If I was at sea level, I think I would be limited to about 900yds with the 16"/123gr factory load.

 

[AKONA]

If you would have told me the same thing, I would have thought BS as well. The Hornady 123gr A-MAX box ammo clocked an average 2470fps for me that day, 15ft from the muzzle using a Chrony Beta Master. I plugged the data into Strelok, and it gave me 14.4 Mils.

The biggest variable for me compared to you is that I'm much higher above sea level, the temp was 80F, and the air is often very dry up here. Hornady advertises 2350fps for a 16" Grendel, which doesn't make any sense, since every 16" Grendel owner is in the low to high 2400's. 2350fps is more like a slow 14.5", or fast 12.5" Grendel with the 123gr A-MAX. My best guess is that Hornady used their 14.5" AA Grendel Carbine (with perm-attach muzzle device for 16") from their 8th Edition, as their site lists 2350 for a 16", and 2580 for a 24". That 123gr A-MAX is a stout load in my experience, considering that I'm getting 20-30fps short of an 18".

I've been doing a lot of load development with CFE223, and have been able to easily get into the mid-2500's with the 123gr A-MAX. I need to post that data here in a separate thread if I haven't already. It makes me look at the 16" Grendel in a new light.

But yes, you're not going to be staying away from the supersonic barrier in New Yorkistan like we can in the Rockies. If I was at sea level, I think I would be limited to about 900yds with the 16"/123gr factory load.

Oh! Nobody has been able to get to those speeds from the hornady's and 16 inchers. At least the folks I shoot with and data from the forums I go.
Did you look at the cases? flat primers or anything? Or maybe hornady changed something at some point?
Again not to be argumentative. Just curious. I am too old for online pissing contests. lol

 

[LRRPF52]

I've been active on the 6.5 Grendel Forum dating back to the old forum in 2009 before it was destroyed, as well as the new forum. Mid-2400's is pretty typical with 16" Grendel's with a 123gr, but there is variation from barrel to barrel of course. Another sanity check was with Precision Firearms factory-loaded 123gr Scenars from the same carbine going 2450fps with a 7fps ES, giving me a .79" 4rd group at 100yds from an economy button barrel.

I just checked my Hornady primers again, and they all have nice little dimples in them. No brass flow extrusion into the ejector channel.

I'm pretty anal about looking at cases, but I watch the chronograph for pressure signs more importantly than analyzing brass. If I see erratic speeds outside of a certain ES, then I know the load is unpredictable. There are proof loads that won't even show pressure signs, so unless you have cratering or blown primers, especially in a gas gun, looking at brass can be a bunch of noise. I still do it, and caliper the case web as well, but the chronograph is much better and my first line of pressure sign detection.

It's also why I do a pressure ladder with a new load in small increments. Using starting loads and working up so I can track a trend line with charge weight increment increase to velocity. The moment I see a departure from the trend, I confirm it with another duplicate pressure ladder string, then call the charge weight below it the cut-off point for the temperature conditions, and work within the safe parameters to find my accuracy nodes.

One area of brass analysis that means a lot to me is if the primer pockets are loose after the 1st loading. That's a pretty telling sign that you're in a bad place, so I keep track of the brass after the shooting session and brass prep process. I haven't had any Grendel brass that I can recall with loose pockets. I'll find out here in a bit with the load development I did last time with CFE223.

Here's a post back in 2006 about 16" and 14.5" Grendel velocities:

90 TNT, 30 gr. Benchmark
16" 2730 fps
14.5" 2660 fps

100 Scenar, 27.5 gr. Accurate 2460
16" 2597 fps
14.5" 2540 fps

123 Scenar Factory
16" 2472 fps
14.5" 2426 fps

129 SST, 29.0 gr. BL(C)-2
16" 2302 fps
14.5" 2267 fps

These are all pressure safe loadings published by AA.

I just found these randomly, confirming what I have seen all along, as well as the recent data from guys who bought 14.5" Saber barrels and chrono'd the Hornady 123gr factory ammo.

 

[Jon Lester]

Copper creek makes excellent 6 Creedmore ammo and I can produce tons of video of my 7 year old daughter rocking 600 and 700 yard IPSC plates with a Gap - 10 in this caliber. The recoil (braked) is hardly more noticeable than a suppressed ar with 77 grainers, which she can tag both plates with but with no where near the consistency .

 

[gunn317]

Just a quick update, I grabbed everything we needed minus barrel and foreend and we built the lower last night. It was hard to watch them beat up the receiver sometimes with the punch rods but they had a blast. Trying to make this a bargain basement rifle that still shoots. Upper, lower, and both build kits are blemishes and I think I am on par with a match barrel to keep this little project under 700 dollars. I am fighting the urge to get a giesselle or timney trigger but that would push the price up and does a 9 and 6 yo really need a match trigger right off the rip. I spent 8 years shooting USMC M16A2's that had shitty triggers and made due with quals and division matches. I got a ton of pics and will probably start a thread from beginning until first range trip with range report if there is interest. I am still up in the air on what caliber, .223 is so much easier to get than Grendel, .223 is cheaper ammo, and once she is ready maybe just build another upper with a Grendel barrel in a year or so.

 

[LRRPF52]

Just polish the trigger nose and hammer notch engagement, use JP reduced power trigger and disconnector springs, and get a JP speed hammer if you want to use the reduced power hammer spring. It will be fine to learn on a tuned rack-grade trigger.

A .223 will be fine to learn on out to 400-600yds with 69gr & 77gr SMK's, Nosler CC's, or Barnes MB's, especially from a 20" barrel.

 

[sandwarrior]

I have my own data in most commercial loads. AA, hornady, Black Hills and even Wolf(Priv) loads.
The the 123gr Grendel hornady from a 18" LBC 5r barrel for example (super accurate and 2" inch longer than the advertised).
Shot 2 10 rd strings average. 500ft ASL. temp.28C. 2483fps. break speed happens at 1100yd.
So might be a tad longer with wind in the back but still.

The same round in same conditions from a 24" AA upper 2591fps.

In contrast the 6.5mmBR feeding from the same magazine with same bullet and a 20" krieger 5R barrel shoots 2750-2800fps.
Break speed in same conditions is 1300yds and 8.7mill hold at 1000yds with zero at 200yrd.

All measured with RCBS ammo master and/or magnetospeed.

6BR even flatter.

So, don't get me wrong. I like the LBC/grendel but I just wanted something that could shoot flatter and further yet still from the same AR15 mags.
I just don't see how a 16" 6.5G. upper with hornady or any other commercial load can get out there before transonic and accurately.
Math just doesn't add up. But what do I know anyway? LOL

I think what's going on here is the confusion of which rounds beat the Grendel LBC. I'll say flat out, yes, the 6.5mm BR and the 6mm BR will beat the 6.5 G/.264 LBC. The confusion, I believe, is that you show the 6x45 (necked up .223/5.56) with good BC bullets. They will not beat a Grendel.

I like the idea of the 6.5/6mm BR in an AR. What I've found though is you have to get a bolt/barrel extension that is strong enough to handle the increase in total pressure those two components take. Thus my post on AR15 Performance. Unfortunately, he does not build them anymore. You can still beat the Grendel with them, but for what you have to give up vs. what you gain, it's not worth it. In a bolt gun, it would be totally worth it.

Edit: Added

Oh! Nobody has been able to get to those speeds from the hornady's and 16 inchers. At least the folks I shoot with and data from the forums I go.
Did you look at the cases? flat primers or anything? Or maybe hornady changed something at some point?
Again not to be argumentative. Just curious. I am too old for online pissing contests. lol

Hornady did change some things. They are now loading the 6.5G and some of the other 'high performance' rounds with Leverevolution and Superformance type powders. These powders allow the smaller cases to be loaded to maximum pressure with faster powders and not have issues with some barrels overpressuring and some not. So yeah, the big change is better powder loading.

 

[waveslayer]

Hands down the Grendel! It's a freaking tack driver with no recoil. Plus she can hunt with it if you want to take her hunting. Check out their Forum, it's awesome. I love mine and now I'm building another one.

I see comments about it not being so good out to 600... I beg differ! It is designed for that and is extremely effective at those ranges.

 

[Graham]

There's no advantage to the Grendel unless you are trying to get something to work on a small AR platform.

 

[AKONA]

I think what's going on here is the confusion of which rounds beat the Grendel LBC. I'll say flat out, yes, the 6.5mm BR and the 6mm BR will beat the 6.5 G/.264 LBC. The confusion, I believe, is that you show the 6x45 (necked up .223/5.56) with good BC bullets. They will not beat a Grendel.

I like the idea of the 6.5/6mm BR in an AR. What I've found though is you have to get a bolt/barrel extension that is strong enough to handle the increase in total pressure those two components take. Thus my post on AR15 Performance. Unfortunately, he does not build them anymore. You can still beat the Grendel with them, but for what you have to give up vs. what you gain, it's not worth it. In a bolt gun, it would be totally worth it.

Edit: Added

Hornady did change some things. They are now loading the 6.5G and some of the other 'high performance' rounds with Leverevolution and Superformance type powders. These powders allow the smaller cases to be loaded to maximum pressure with faster powders and not have issues with some barrels overpressuring and some not. So yeah, the big change is better powder loading.

I actually shoot these calibers from several upper lengths so there is no confusion of any kind.
The 6x45Long (from VLD mags) @ 2.54 COAL from 20" lothar walther barreled upper. 105gr berger VLD @ 2690fps G1:.547 G7:.278... based on the atmospherics above proposed by LRRPF52 that delivers 8.2mils at 1000 yards & ~1543fps and break speed well past 1400 yards. I cannot replicate with any 120-123gr from any LBC/grendel upper. The downside is single stack but I am ok with 5 to 10 shots strings anyway. I also use the same mags in the Rem700 to simulate M118LR type of trajectory at slower speeds thus saving fuel and barrel life. Equipment is expensive and I shoot a lot.

The 6.5BR has not been given any issues. It feeds quite nicely form the 6.8PRI mags and produces 2750-2790 with 123gr Amax and scenar. The krieger barrels shoot close to 1/2MOA so I am not sure what is wrong with this given that is an autoloader is pleasure the drive and quick precise follow up shots are easy. 6mmBR is the same way, perfect for the AR15 portfolio.

Spreads are measured and corroborated between RCBS ammo master and magnetospeed.

no worthy? not sure why but maybe for some.

 

[BoilerUP]

Surplus Ammo has a BHW 18" 1:9 6.5 Grendel (264 LBC?) barrel in stock right now.

http://www.surplusammo.com/blackhol...-stainless-steel-6-5-grendel-1-9-poly-barrel/

I understand BHW's Grendel/LBC barrels are 'Type I' extensions so they use a .125/normal 7.61x39 bolt...but I could be wrong on that.

 

[AKONA]

I have a brand new never fired 18" 5R LBC barrel with matching heaspaced bolt (a good quality bolt) that I will probably never use. Too many uppers not much time.
I always buy barrels and matching bolts in twos or threes so if someone is looking for one let me know.
These are very accurate. LBC is a tad better chamber in my experience.

 

[sandwarrior]

I actually shoot these calibers from several upper lengths so there is no confusion of any kind.
The 6x45Long (from VLD mags) @ 2.54 COAL from 20" lothar walther barreled upper. 105gr berger VLD @ 2690fps G1:.547 G7:.278... based on the atmospherics above proposed by LRRPF52 that delivers 8.2mils at 1000 yards & ~1543fps and break speed well past 1400 yards. I cannot replicate with any 120-123gr from any LBC/grendel upper. The downside is single stack but I am ok with 5 to 10 shots strings anyway. I also use the same mags in the Rem700 to simulate M118LR type of trajectory at slower speeds thus saving fuel and barrel life. Equipment is expensive and I shoot a lot.

The 6.5BR has not been given any issues. It feeds quite nicely form the 6.8PRI mags and produces 2750-2790 with 123gr Amax and scenar. The krieger barrels shoot close to 1/2MOA so I am not sure what is wrong with this given that is an autoloader is pleasure the drive and quick precise follow up shots are easy. 6mmBR is the same way, perfect for the AR15 portfolio.

Spreads are measured and corroborated between RCBS ammo master and magnetospeed.

no worthy? not sure why but maybe for some.

All I can say is you're getting some pretty awesome performance from the 6x45. I was only able to get 2600 fps out of my 6mm TCU, (added: 87 gr. bullet) which is an improved 6x45.

As far as the 2.54" COAL, you must have some kind of modification because all of my AR-15 lower magazine wells are right at 2.400".

 

[AKONA]

All I can say is you're getting some pretty awesome performance from the 6x45. I was only able to get 2600 fps out of my 6mm TCU, (added: 87 gr. bullet) which is an improved 6x45, shooting 80 gr. bullets.

As far as the 2.54" COAL, you must have some kind of modification because all of my AR-15 lower magazine wells are right at 2.400".

Hi, Yes,
I explained the magazines on this thread in post #55. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...recision-rifle-my-daughter-2.html#post2799323
They are centerstack magazines. Also the freebore has been increased to the needed length. A significant improvement in the performance in any loads, even the regular COAL when using PRI/ASC/H&K that all load at 2.30-2.32 and stack perfectly just like the .223. I think the TCU wildcat can be loaded to NATO type pressures too vs .223 using hard/match primers and w/o any issues. 90gr FMJ in std magazines with same 20" barrel do 2725-2750fps spreads depending on rifling and brass. ..LC plant or WCC vs. winchester or remington for example. The extra space in the case and freebore makes an improvement assuming folks are ok with centerstack in single column.
I think I might need to open a new thread for any variants folks might be interested on at the risk of highjacking this one form the OP's grendel.

 

[sandwarrior]

There's no advantage to the Grendel unless you are trying to get something to work on a small AR platform.

I agree. I like the Grendel a ton. But, one has to take the disadvantages as well as advantages. You only get a couple bullets to do what what you wish for with the 6.5 Grendel. As much as I hate to say it, the 123 gr. A-max is NOT one of those bullets. Good, but doesn't meet what the Grendel can do. They are, however, much more accessible than the others.

In any case, most anything out of a 6.8 SPC II chamber will beat a Grendel inside 500 yds. For all out power from an AR-15 it doesn't compare with the WSSM's and the various large caliber cases chambered for the AR-15 inside 200 yd. ranges. Where it shines, and the only place it shines, is it has the right bullets that are capable of getting 1400 yds. supersonic and creating a great group because of that. But, where it shines, it's adequate all the way out.

 

[sandwarrior]

Hi, Yes,
I explained the magazines on this thread in post #55. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...recision-rifle-my-daughter-2.html#post2799323
They are centerstack magazines. Also the freebore has been increased to the needed length. A significant improvement in the performance in any loads, even the regular COAL when using PRI/ASC/H&K that all load at 2.30-2.32 and stack perfectly just like the .223. I think the TCU wildcat can be loaded to NATO type pressures too vs .223 using hard/match primers and w/o any issues. 90gr FMJ in std magazines with same 20" barrel do 2725-2750fps spreads depending on rifling and brass. ..LC plant or WCC vs. winchester or remington for example. The extra space in the case and freebore makes an improvement assuming folks are ok with centerstack in single column.
I think I might need to open a new thread for any variants folks might be interested on at the risk of highjacking this one form the OP's grendel.

What your'e explaining to me looks like single feeding. No point in putting that combination in an AR. I thought the same thing about a 7mm TCU. Again, no point, as the round was too long to fit in the magazine system and it's a lot harder to single feed and jack rounds from an AR as opposed to a bolt gun.

 

[AKONA]

What your'e explaining to me looks like single feeding. No point in putting that combination in an AR. I thought the same thing about a 7mm TCU. Again, no point, as the round was too long to fit in the magazine system and it's a lot harder to single feed and jack rounds from an AR as opposed to a bolt gun.

Hi, It is not single feeding. The VLD magazines stack on the center using the center rib in the back but the last round moves into position to be taken by the bolt in autoloader mode just like any other AR magazine. 5,6 or 10 round mags are more than plenty for this type of use. The nice thing is there is no modification to the lower other than the bolt catch so the lower can take a regular defense magazine with 30 rounds as well as the VLD mags with the long special rounds. I use the same mags in the Rem700 that also takes both types, standard and VLD single feed. This is nothing new and whether some like it or not it doesn't matter. It is a nice and flexible option the .223 case has due to the diameter of the rim/head that can be accommodated. 6.8, 7.62x39, 308 bolt face based casings do not fit.

 

[sandwarrior]

Hi, It is not single feeding. The VLD magazines stack on the center using the center rib in the back but the last round moves into position to be taken by the bolt in autoloader mode just like any other AR magazine. 5,6 or 10 round mags are more than plenty for this type of use. The nice thing is there is no modification to the lower other than the bolt catch so the lower can take a regular defense magazine with 30 rounds as well as the VLD mags with the long special rounds. I use the same mags in the Rem700 that also takes both types, standard and VLD single feed. This is nothing new and whether some like it or not it doesn't matter. It is a nice and flexible option the .223 case has due to the diameter of the rim/head that can be accommodated. 6.8, 7.62x39, 308 bolt face based casings do not fit.

Okay, I see what you're talking about. When I first measured my lowers' mag wells, I used face to face. When I measured fwd point groove to rear groove, that is 2.600" So I see how 2.540" is doable.

As far as the speeds, what is your load for the 6x45 to get the 105's up to 2600? I will say I can see where you get the increased capacity. I still do not believe it's capable of beating any of the PPC/Russian improvements though. They are a full 20% increase in useable volume over the 5.56/.223 case.

 

[BoilerUP]

This thread has me looking at the 6.5 Grendel/264 LBC...along with the 243 LBC/6mm AR and 6-6.8.

If a long throated, long-loaded 6x45 can get 105 Hybrids safely to 2600fps from a 20" gas gun I really wonder what a 6TCU from a 22" bolt gun would do...

 

[AKONA]

Okay, I see what you're talking about. When I first measured my lowers' mag wells, I used face to face. When I measured fwd point groove to rear groove, that is 2.600" So I see how 2.540" is doable.

As far as the speeds, what is your load for the 6x45 to get the 105's up to 2600? I will say I can see where you get the increased capacity. I still do not believe it's capable of beating any of the PPC/Russian improvements though. They are a full 20% increase in useable volume over the 5.56/.223 case.

I am glad you see it now. CFE for example will get not just to 2600 but closer to 2690fps on a 20" upper already hot but still manageable for the higher capacity "hard" NATO brass. Never any hotter than the parent donor round like the typical M885. Primers 450 or military type 45's
One could start with 26gr of CFE and then work it up slowly. Soon you will be hitting the ~2650fps and some accuracy loads in that range. no flat primers or extrusion marks. I do not publish max loads because someone is going to miss something or do something wrong and they are going to ruin their brass or worse and these projects are not for AR deal kit weekend project type of builder. In order to accomodate the VLDs you need to give some extra freebore and leave 10 thousands or so to jump and also accomodate to the max COAL given by the VLD magazine. The best one it happens to be the berger hybrid that is not so jump sensitive. Understanding the chamber, brass, primers, capacities and COAL is paramount when working with wildcats. The key to achieve consistent starting pressures is consistent neck tension. I do put a very very light lee factory crimp even w/o the cannelure and it gives me consistent starting pressure and spreads are many times yielded with differences in the single digits.
Keep in mind this is not a race or a competition to win anything. I am simply making use of a truck load of service spent brass I have accumulated during the years and the 6x45 in short or long version has been proven a very accurate versatile and affordable round to do training with. It is also a nice defense and meat harvesting round whether is pork or white tail. The 80gr TTSX in the VLD mag is brutal but just like most barnes in any caliber or grain. The hornady 105gr HPBT and amax are also great performers and a nice value.

 

[AKONA]

This thread has me looking at the 6.5 Grendel/264 LBC...along with the 243 LBC/6mm AR and 6-6.8.

If a long throated, long-loaded 6x45 can get 105 Hybrids safely to 2600fps from a 20" gas gun I really wonder what a 6TCU from a 22" bolt gun would do...

Fireformed TCU about 20 to 30 extra fps vs. neck sized fireformed 6x45. This in conventional throated chamber. Don't know a TCU in VLD version but I would imagine same differences.

In this one i don't sacrifice a very reliable feeding friendly shoulder angle for that much. the 22 inches is the perfect case capacity to bore volume ratio for this round and best performer powders.
On the Rem 700 bolt gun I load for the same speed because I use it to replicate the M118LR trajectory and I also use the same AR15 VLD magazines that I use in the AR15.
But I know it can get to the same speeds with less fuel so it can be pumped safely to probably some extra 100fps. That will put you close to the 2800fps with teh VLD 105gr loads.
If someone tells you the 6x45 cannot do anything above 95gr they are wrong. They probably gave up exploring the round.
The 6x45 cannot do what the 6mmBR and other 6mm wildcats can do but with the VLD option it gives a nice option and improvement and it is a lot more budget friendly. Less powder and endless supply of
service brass many times discarded at the recycle bin. The 6x45 is inherently accurate won many matches in the 60s and 70's until the 6BR came along and became king to this day.
A 6x45 with 75, 80, 85 and 90 bullets in regular length AR magazine is very good performer too. At 100 yards it carries more energy than the popular 7.62x39 and obviously the whisper/blackout and many other
alternatives yet it is super easy to reload and get right shooting submoa. It is actually very forgiving and even a tad easier to get right than the .223 so it is also great for beginners.
Sorry to the thread owner. Might have taken this into other direction. I am willing to move into a new thread if folks want to talk more about this or other options.

 

[sandwarrior]

Fireformed TCU about 20 to 30 extra fps vs. neck sized fireformed 6x45. This in conventional throated chamber. Don't know a TCU in VLD version but I would imagine same differences.

In this one i don't sacrifice a very reliable feeding friendly shoulder angle for that much. the 22 inches is the perfect case capacity to bore volume ratio for this round and best performer powders.
On the Rem 700 bolt gun I load for the same speed because I use it to replicate the M118LR trajectory and I also use the same AR15 VLD magazines that I use in the AR15.
But I know it can get to the same speeds with less fuel so it can be pumped safely to probably some extra 100fps. That will put you close to the 2800fps with teh VLD 105gr loads.
If someone tells you the 6x45 cannot do anything above 95gr they are wrong. They probably gave up exploring the round.
The 6x45 cannot do what the 6mmBR and other 6mm wildcats can do but with the VLD option it gives a nice option and improvement and it is a lot more budget friendly. Less powder and endless supply of
service brass many times discarded at the recycle bin. The 6x45 is inherently accurate won many matches in the 60s and 70's until the 6BR came along and became king to this day.
A 6x45 with 75, 80, 85 and 90 bullets in regular length AR magazine is very good performer too. At 100 yards it carries more energy than the popular 7.62x39 and obviously the whisper/blackout and many other
alternatives yet it is super easy to reload and get right shooting submoa. It is actually very forgiving and even a tad easier to get right than the .223 so it is also great for beginners.
Sorry to the thread owner. Might have taken this into other direction. I am willing to move into a new thread if folks want to talk more about this or other options.

No need to apologize. He's asking for a good round. You've explained a very easy option to do. Easier than going with the 6.5 Grendel IMO. I've had two of them and they can be a real PITA to load when trying to maximize their performance. I found one very new powder that saved the day for me and that was IMR8208 XBR. I started with AA2520 and found that because of temp sensitivity it doesn't work for summer to winter and back again. You have to load for each season or download. Length of gas tube is the big restrictor there. Same as the BR cases in the AR-15 platform. They need length to work properly.

 

[AKONA]

No need to apologize. He's asking for a good round. You've explained a very easy option to do. Easier than going with the 6.5 Grendel IMO. I've had two of them and they can be a real PITA to load when trying to maximize their performance. I found one very new powder that saved the day for me and that was IMR8208 XBR. I started with AA2520 and found that because of temp sensitivity it doesn't work for summer to winter and back again. You have to load for each season or download. Length of gas tube is the big restrictor there. Same as the BR cases in the AR-15 platform. They need length to work properly.

Hi tubes can be of any length if you need them to be. there are extra long ones and also nice couplers. I have not had any need for the couplers other than special projects and barrels cut to specific unconventional dimensions.
Regarding the magazines the PRI, H&K and even ASC give 2.3 to 2.32 that is more than plenty for the 6mm BR and 6.5mm BR. Getting the most out of the BR cases has not been a problem and they stack well and feed flawlessly in e 6.8 and LBC mags. Brass is 6mmBR norma lapua. Simply the best.

3 great performers in the 6.5mm BR version. the 100gr amax (very fast) the 120gr speer and the 123 scenar
that can be safely pumped to 2780fps. My accuracy load is 2750 though. Not too shabby for a 20" upper and 32 grains of powder.
The 123gr amax is also a nice one but not in the picture. Again, they all fit nicely and feed flawlessly.
For hunting the 125 partition can take large deer large hogs and even larger game.

 

[BoilerUP]

Fireformed TCU about 20 to 30 extra fps vs. neck sized fireformed 6x45.

Given the gain from 223 to 223 Ackley, I don't think 30fps is worth the additional time/effort/cost of going from 6x45 to 6TCU.

The idea that the diminutive 5.56x45 case can push a 105 Hybrid to 2600fps from a 20-22" barrel (without Ackleyizing) is amazing - that beats a 308/175 combo in every way but energy...

 

[AKONA]

Given the gain from 223 to 223 Ackley, I don't think 30fps is worth the additional time/effort/cost of going from 6x45 to 6TCU.

The idea that the diminutive 5.56x45 case can push a 105 Hybrid to 2600fps from a 20-22" barrel (without Ackleyizing) is amazing - that beats a 308/175 combo in every way but energy...

Hi,
the thing is that the diminutive case is not so diminutive in VLD mode. I would not compare with the 308 because the 6x45 it can actually better the trajectory of the 308 but it doesn't have
the momentum to reduce soft targets and knock down the steel at long distances. However it becomes a very attractive alternative specially for those who have lots of fired serviceable brass and want to shoot
on a more modest budget.
Brass is super-strong, rifles bolt and actions super strong too and many models to choose from. The rem 700 is my favorite that is a 6mmx45 precise "copy" of the 308w LR service rifle. So other than the reduced recoil
the glass, ergonomics, look and feel is the same and I have it running so I can use the same precise math I use with the bigger brother. The only other thing different is the mag release that I use a .223rem
bottom to share the same AR15/VLD mags vs. the AI system in the 308w chassis. Both operated with the index finger anyway.
Other than that is a great working man's trainer but also hunter up to certain range / game weight. I love having them in the AR and rem700 platforms sharing same AR15 magazine system.
It becomes a very sensible choice for all the above reasons.
All things considered, more times than not, less is more in the end.

 

[gunn317]

I have a brand new never fired 18" 5R LBC barrel with matching heaspaced bolt (a good quality bolt) that I will probably never use. Too many uppers not much time.
I always buy barrels and matching bolts in twos or threes so if someone is looking for one let me know.
These are very accurate. LBC is a tad better chamber in my experience.

How much would you want for the barrel E? I have really been looking at .223 in match barrel trying to squeeze out a good shooter but being cheap is killing lol.

 

[Hummerdawg]

Can you elaborate on how you are making your VLD magazines? Thanks

 

[LRRPF52]

I agree. I like the Grendel a ton. But, one has to take the disadvantages as well as advantages. You only get a couple bullets to do what what you wish for with the 6.5 Grendel. As much as I hate to say it, the 123 gr. A-max is NOT one of those bullets. Good, but doesn't meet what the Grendel can do. They are, however, much more accessible than the others.

In any case, most anything out of a 6.8 SPC II chamber will beat a Grendel inside 500 yds. For all out power from an AR-15 it doesn't compare with the WSSM's and the various large caliber cases chambered for the AR-15 inside 200 yd. ranges. Where it shines, and the only place it shines, is it has the right bullets that are capable of getting 1400 yds. supersonic and creating a great group because of that. But, where it shines, it's adequate all the way out.

I guess I should can my 123gr A-MAX loads then. I was only able to get 2489fps with 31.1gr of CFE from my 16" Grendel. 31.4gr gave me 2520fps, and 31.7gr gave me 2532fps. This was with 2.275" COL and a true Grendel SAAMI chamber. My other velocities are posted in the thread I shared with all the details, and I went way higher than that before seeing any excursions from the trendline in velocity. Hornady lists 31.7gr the max with the 129gr SST. I was shooting the 123gr A-MAX, which behaves like a Nosler Ballistic Tip on game by the way. People have been killing coyotes, hogs, and deer with it every since it came out.

My 2489fps load only keeps me supersonic out to 1290yds in the conditions I was shooting in. The 2532fps load only has supersonic speed out to 1300yds. What bullet do you recommend I go to in order to improve this performance from my little 16" Grendel? The 123gr A-MAX was specifically designed for the 6.5 Grendel.

Which couple of bullets are the only ones that will do what you wish from this line-up?



This is less than half of the 6.5mm bullets available, and there are more than I will be able to ever develop loads for in this lifetime. If someone can point me to the couple that will work, that would sure save me a lot of trouble, because I've only been able to get 9 of them to shoot well for me so far:

90gr TNT
100gr NBT
107gr SMK
120gr SMK
120gr NBT
123gr A-MAX
123gr SST
123gr Scenar
129gr SST

The 123gr A-MAX is one of the standards in the 6.5 Grendel, for accuracy and efficiency. It has a .510 BC, fits well in the Grendel case and AR15, is affordable...basically what's not to like about it?

About the 6.8 SPC II, there isn't a load that will beat the Grendel inside of 500yds. I've run so many comparisons using the SSA Tactical loads, and I can't find one that compares well past 275yds. The 110gr Nosler AB Tactical load at 2630fps from a 16" barrel is one of the better ones, but still loses easily to the low-pressure Hornady factory 123gr SST from a 16".

If we had the 110gr Barnes (ATF BS ruling) with its .452 BC, it would easily out-gas anything in the 6.8 line-up in 110gr. Otherwise you're left comparing 100gr-123gr to 100gr-120gr, and it never works out well for the 6.8's little football-shaped pills. The 110 AB and 120gr SST are exceptions to this, but they still don't cut it, compared to even a 14.5" Grendel, and they are more expensive.

As far as hunting reach goes, the Grendel in 16", 18", and 20" barrels is commonly used to kill rather large animals at extended ranges. We've seen Alaskan Caribou (275yds and 400yds-123gr SST/18" Grendel), Kodiak Island black tail deer (442, 458, 498yds with 120gr NBT/20"), 9-point buck at 337yds in 30mph 1/2 value wind with 123gr SST at 2530fps, and 370yds on a 3-pointer with 123gr SST just within the past 8 weeks. Even 10.5" will keep the 123gr over 1800fps out to 250yds, and has been used to kill large deer up north with the 123gr A-MAX, DRT.

 

[waveslayer]

Well said... 6.8 SPC has its place, just not along side the performance of the Grendel

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[sandwarrior]

LRRPF52

Don't trash your 123 gr. A-max loads! Just know it isn't the top of the heap when it comes to stretching out the Grendel. Also, my experience with these has been 24" barrels. I never was a fan of giving up velocity for "handiness". You guys are pushing 16" barrels which is alright too. It's something I never dealt with in my 4 years in the Rangers where we never got in and out of HumVees. I can see where a shorter barrel is going to be a lot more maneuverable in those situations. Fighting in urban environments it's probably a lot more useful as well. FWIW, we used open topped jeeps. A shorter barrel didn't matter as much. And, Urban warfare was something we trained on two or three weeks a year. All that said I completely understand going to a shorter barrel.

You also have a pretty good situation for the Grendel in that you are in Utah? Altitude helps a lot for marginal bullets. I find A-max's drop about 3-4 more moa out to 1k than do the Lapua Scenars and Sierra SMK's.

So, my pick for best bullets is in this order:

123 gr. Scenar. - Best BC, Best stability. Easy to get over 2600 fps and not too hard to get upwards of 2700 with the "magic powder" combination.
123 gr. Sierra SMK. - Right close to the Lapua but not quite there.
130 gr. Norma GT. -This is the total sleeper of the bunch. Like the lapua and SMK it has a tangent ogive. With the normally tight twisted 6.5 barrels it remains stable as far as you can shoot. However, because of being slightly heavier, it's harder to push as fast.
130 Berger Match VLD- I like this bullet a lot, same issues as the Norma GT except a little harder to stabilize through the sound barrier.
123 Horn. A-max A great bullet for the price. It's very good as far as quality goes, but not as good as Hornady wished in the BC. department.
108 Lapua- great bullet with roughly the same shape as the 123 but gets out a lot faster. Downside is with less weight it slows down faster as well.
107 Sierra- While just about even with the 123 A-max, it drops off faster past 1k.

The "magic powder"? IMR8208XBR. It is fast enough to get good initial push on the bullet but with a soft pressure ceiling so it won't rip cases up. A byproduct of burn retardant meant to curb temp sensitivity.

I typically loaded in my 24" barrel, 29 gr. behind any 123 gr. bullet for chrono'ed velocities of just over 2700. This clashes with AA's "low pressure" designation of the round, but no damage was done to the cases. My previous "go to" powder was AA2520. But in seriousness it was way too temp sensitive to work in that size case in an AR-15. I had to load for summer and winter and never mix the two. One was too hot, the other not hot enough, burning too long down the barrel and causing over pressure (premature opening of the bolt) in the gas system. I don't recommend AA2520 unless you are at mostly one temp throughout the year where you shoot.

As far as the 6.8 SPC II, it's the free bore in that chambering which gives it the short run advantage over the 6.5 Grendel. The two have almost identical capacity, very little burn characteristic difference due to case shape, and nearly as close as you can get in area the gas can push on when fired. The slight advantage going to the 6.8 over the 6.5. That is why with the freebore, a 6.8 will beat the 6.5 until the 6.5 bullets take over in higher BC.

What ATF ruling was that you speak of with the Barnes? I didn't hear of it. (not paying attention, really)

 

[BravoSierra]

I had a 18" .264ARP setup as a DMR with a PRS stock, weighed about 9lbs. With a 12 port brake, recoil was nothing. A kid would have loved that rifle.

That beind said, LRRPF52 is a very good source of info for the 6.5g/.264.

This. I was shooting a MK12 with m262 at 600. Often frustrating with the wind especially when this is your first year doing it and learning. So I built a new rifle using the ARP 18" barrel. With the hornady factory load I'm holding 5" groups at 600 in gusting 15 mph winds. My wife routinely shows me up with cold bore head shots with this one. No more frustration. To me, it has less recoil than the 262 loads in the mk12, but the adjustable block may play into that.

 

[LRRPF52]

Sandwarrior, I was be rhetorical, but not trying to be an anus. Very well aware of the 123gr Scenar. I also have some of the new Scenar-L bullets in 120gr, but they don't have the BC of the 123gr. Some of my best accuracy is with the 123gr Scenar. Brian Litz's adjusted BC data for the 123gr A-MAX is .509 G1, versus the stated .510 BC, so not really noticeable by the shooter.

A lot of things have changed in Ranger Regiment since the Jeep days. Everybody got M4A1's in 1994, and now have M4A1 SOPMOD Block II carbines. CQB and MOUT have been Ranger Regiment forte dating back for a long time.

Anyway, yeah, I prefer a tight-handling gun, not long barrels. Can't shoot positions with long-barreled guns that well, so I'm a big fan of maneuverable carbines, especially on a hunt, or when running my DM Courses. Even the 18" guns get unruly when shooting kneeling or squatting, with a shooting sling. We are at altitude here, so I get excellent performance from the 123gr A-MAX at distance, but I haven't compared it drop-wise with the 123gr Scenar. They both have shot the best for me so far though, with best groups being just under .8 MOA for both at 100 and 200yds. I shoot steel past that, and rarely measure the groups-just looking for impact on 12" and IPSC at distance. I don't shoot anywhere in the State under 4400ft ASL, and often shoot 6600ft ASL as well.

8208XBR is definitely temp-stable, but it has an edge that you simply can't go over, and that is 28.5gr with the 123gr pills. Looking at its burn rate, it is actually a little fast for the 123gr pills, and I feel it is better suited from strictly a burn-rate perspective for 100gr, although a lot of people use it as their go-to for 123gr.

Agreed on AA2520 with temp-sensitivity. I'm getting ready to follow-up with CFE223 with duplicate pressure ladders to see how it compares to the 60 F temps I shot last with it. I also have some 130gr Norma GT's, but I'm keeping them for the .260 Remington. I honestly never intended to reach out past 700yds with my 16" Grendel, and it was only on a challenge by some guys who were shooting at 1200yds that I stretched it to see what it would do. My 1st round was just barely off the left edge, then 4 went on-target in rapid succession after that. There was no wind, so I wouldn't expect performance like that most of the time, but it smokes M118 and 168gr SMK's easily.

The Grendel has 2-6 grains of powder capacity advantage on the 6.8, and a 30 degree shoulder. I've been running my velocity comparisons between the two, often handicapping the Grendel while taking the fastest 6.8 SPC II loads I can find from 6.8 forums, many of which received a series of lashings for the poster who pushed well in excess of 65,000psi. If you use a 20" 6.8 ARP, hand-load the 110gr Nosler AB with an unnamed canister powder, pushing it to 2880fps with the Super Bolt, then you start to be competitive with my 16" Grendel and the 123gr SST hand load of 2572fps, which matches, then exceeds the 20" ARP 2880fps hand load for energy by 250yds, with better wind drift from the start. With factory loads, a 14.5" Grendel beats the 18" with SSA Tactical loads, so I guess if someone wants to push pressures with less performance from longer barrels that I'm not going to hump into the mountains, it's one option. Could be part of a weight-training program maybe.

 

[sandwarrior]

LRRPF52

I didn't think you were being an ass at all. I did know you were being sarcastic.

The changes are always amazing when we look back. Most of our time was spent long range patrolling in Ft. Stewart. We did a deployment every quarter and mostly did the same thing. About every other week, we had a live fire, mostly squad or platoon. About once or twice a year we did a full company sized live fire, and IIRC, I participated in two total BN sized live fires. Also, about once a quarter we would break off and do "special ops" training. Which was airfield seizures, MOUT, etc. I can say that because the Army came out and released a statement about the "Rangers" practicing an airfield seizure at Moses Lake, where I work.

Anyhow, a couple thoughts. The IMR 8208 XBR does have a real fine point not to cross. What you see is: no sign, no sign, BAM, blown primer. Or, a case stuck in the chamber with the rim ripped off. The secret to working it up is never get to that point. Use a chrono and closely calculate barrel length vs. velocity vs. charge increase. It's a lot like RE-17 (but way faster) in that they've added so much burn retardant (how they do it is still secret) so that the charge won't over pressure until you've gotten to the point the load is hot enough to have used up all the retardant. It's like there's no middle ground. Anyhow, that's why I went to it.

Because I don't need as much room as a slower powder, I seat the bullets, whatever they may be all the way down to the shoulder of the ogive. Like giving them a little freebore. I give a little in potential accuracy, but get the bullet going about as fast as I need it to. As soon as I see "too good to be true" velocities, I stop where they last held a stable velocity.

With CFE223 being much slower, you may find you'll have problems with anything lighter than 123 gr. I just got a pound of it to see if it's as good as some say. I'm not sure about the whole copper fouling gig it has though. That's never been a problem for me. Carbon fouling yes. Copper, no.

I would say sometimes we get an awesome barrel for speed as well as accuracy and suddenly that's the way we start to think it always is. I never got a super fast AND accurate barrel until recently. On my 24" Grendel it seemed to give better speed than my AA 24" overwatch. My 7mm-08 that puts 180's out @ 2700....but nothing else lighter goes faster (go figure)

 

[BoilerUP]

Thoughts on a 6.5 grendel long range precision rifle for my daughter?

Brian Litz's adjusted BC data for the 123gr A-MAX is .509 G1, versus the stated .510 BC, so not really noticeable by the shooter.

What source did you see results from Litz testing the 123 Amax? I thought it wasn't in either Applied Ballistics edition.