Shocker alert - Anti 2A spinning a shooting

[pmclaine]

What we have been lead to believe....

First constant tenet of the Anti second amendment crowd is that armed citizens will only increase danger in an event as they lack all discipline and will fire randomly causing more harm than good.

Second armed citizens wont be able to stop the crime in process.

Third Armed citizens are not able to protect themselves during a crime event.


The new paradigm

One armed citizens defending themselves will hamper the investigation of the crime as law enforcement looking through video after the fact will have to determine which armed people are shooting and which are just trying to keep from being shot.

Two looks like the first constant of undisciplined citizen firing wild shots is busted.

Three you are supposed to just die at the crime scene. You have no right to protect your or your families lives.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...t5R&ocid=ientp

 

[J!m]

And your surprised because of....

 

[pmclaine]

Not surprised but this needs to be exposed every time it is encountered.

Its only so helpful to speak of it here amongst the choir but hopefully someone can use it when speaking to the unwashed.

 

[sandwarrior]

I can see the A-2A group group repeating what LE said after this, that it just causes confusion. It sounds to me like the shooter wasn't going to meet his quota, so got scared and ran off. This caused by gun owners who opposed him.

They want to see clearly who the guy killing everyone is so they can make an easy arrest, or more likely death ID. This though is the classic example of responsible gun owners not firing off at anyone with a gun, Their posture and procedure showing what NOT to shoot.

 

[pmclaine]

I can see the A2A group group repeating what LE said after this, that it just causes confusion. It sounds to me like the shooter wasn't going to meet his quota, so got scared and ran off. This caused by gun owners who opposed him.

They want to see clearly who the guy killing everyone is so they can make an easy arrest, or more likely death ID. This though is the classic example of responsible gun owners not firing off at anyone with a gun, Their posture and procedure showing what NOT to shoot.

Yeah dead people are less likely to confuse any investigators.

If those responsible gun owners had only been willing to die the PD would have been able to get that BOLO on the air maybe 5 minutes faster, which was likely still an hour or so after the crime had been committed.

 

[J!m]

It does bring up a valid point: if you don’t have a clear view of the intended target, you shouldn’t even unholser your weapon. And once police arrive, drop your magazine and keep your slide back to indicate you are not a threat. Don’t resist when you get arrested as they sift through the mess.

No, I don’t believe the “investigation “ would have gone faster if there were no armed citizens there; however I understand the confusion cause by several with guns at an “active shooter” scenario.

 

[sandwarrior]

Yeah dead people are less likely to confuse any investigators.

If those responsible gun owners had only been willing to die the PD would have been able to get that BOLO on the air maybe 5 minutes faster, which was likely still an hour or so after the crime had been committed.

I wonder if anyone will come along afterward and show how many people were unable to be targeted because of gun owners using their right to protect themselves.

 

[pmclaine]

I wonder if anyone will come along afterward and show how many people were unable to be targeted because of gun owners using their right to protect themselves.

If they do the only place you will hear about it is amongst those that already know the expected results.

 

[sandwarrior]

It does bring up a valid point: if you don’t have a clear view of the intended target, you shouldn’t even unholser your weapon. And once police arrive, drop your magazine and keep your slide back to indicate you are not a threat. Don’t resist when you get arrested as they sift through the mess.

No, I don’t believe the “investigation “ would have gone faster if there were no armed citizens there; however I understand the confusion cause by several with guns at an “active shooter” scenario.

I have to disagree. DO NOT keep your weapon holstered when you know violence is imminent. Get it out, get it ready, be in ORANGE status ready to go to red. Trying to win a quick draw in that situation is a surefire losing battle.

The second part of your statement is a bit tricky, but the right thing to do. Have a plan to work that if need be and be aware of LE arrival.

Once again, it needs to be pointed out, here is a case where innocent people had seconds and LE arrived in a long number of minutes.

 

[bogeybrown]

It does bring up a valid point: if you don’t have a clear view of the intended target, you shouldn’t even unholser your weapon. And once police arrive, drop your magazine and keep your slide back to indicate you are not a threat. Don’t resist when you get arrested as they sift through the mess.

No, I don’t believe the “investigation “ would have gone faster if there were no armed citizens there; however I understand the confusion cause by several with guns at an “active shooter” scenario.

I'm not sure what mental scenario you're basing this off of, but if LE has confronted you while you're lawfully armed then just do what they tell you, which will typically be to "drop your weapon". Attempting to "unload and show clear" might not be best idea. But again, I have a feeling that there's a scenario you have in mind where you feel as though it would be appropriate for you to do so.

 

[pmclaine]

Agreed Sandwarrior, if there is active gunfire and I have a gun its out pointed generally at the deck, finger is along the slide, and Im looking for safe cover for me/my family.

When LEO comes along if you haven't been contacted/given direction safely reholster and prone out or otherwise make it visually/verbally known you are not a threat. If they have eyes on you and your gun is out do exactly as directed. Certainly make them aware you are armed when contact is made if they otherwise are not aware you are armed.

Don't try to finger fuck the pistol more than you have to. Having a ND while your nervous adrenaline affected ass tries to manipulate a slide lock and down load at that moment in time will not go well for you.

Sadly this is likely one of those times where that Royal Blue Colt you are so proud of may not get the tender care and handling you provide it. The finish on your pistol will not over ride the concern of creating a safe scene.

Expect a little rough treatment perhaps until they get it figured out. Don't hide your gun or something with the reasoning you didn't want to appear a threat. It than becomes evidence at the scene or opens you to leaving an unsecured weapon for perhaps another dangerous party to recover.

Be respectful and get receipts if any of your property is secured so that you can ensure it is returned.

As an aside there was a study done regarding soldiers and what occurs at the moment they are going from combatant to prisoner.

It was found that soldiers that retained head gear were at more risk during the initial moment of contact. I guess the head cover conceals to some extent your humanity and gives the appearance of threat. Don't know if it would work but increase your appearance of vulnerability to LEO in hopes they are more ready to recognize you as "in need of help" rather than a threat.

 

[bogeybrown]

All excellent point pmclaine . Having contacted a LOT of armed citizens during my time in LE, body language and compliance very rapidly dictate our response, and I have afforded several folks with nice weapons the option of very safely and gently placing their weapon on the ground rather than insisting they drop it.
When I was an "actor" during officer survival scenarios I would build that part in for several reasons:
1) Most obviously I didn't want to be actually DROPPING my weapon many times a day

2) Many citizens may be very happy to disarm, but are going to say something like "I ain't dropping this gun onto the asphalt" so the officers need to understand the difference between a complaint person who just doesn't want to mess up the finish on their granddaddy's shotgun and a guy refusing to disarm.

3) In some cases it's just safer to set a weapon down than to toss it


I can still tell you the full name of the fucking recruit that had seen too much TV and literally kicked my West German Sig across an asphalt and gravel parking lot. Every time I see the skid marks on that pistol I want to call him and tell him "fuck you" again and that was almost 25 years ago.

 

[pmclaine]

3) In some cases it's just safer to set a weapon down than to toss it.

Especially if its a Sig 320

 

[sandwarrior]

Especially if its a Sig 320

HEY!... They couldn't make up their minds they needed the right pistol, a 1911. So, guess who came away with a really nice M45? Don't kiss a gift horse on the teeth!

 

[Keel Haul]

I understand there's an investigation that needs to be done, but not at the expense of my life or others by leaving my weapon holstered. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[J!m]

Well it sounded to me that the event took place in a wal mart, not an open field. I’m not saying you should run into the line of fire like Rambo in some Hollywood flick. Do you have eyes on the prize around all those shelves and displays? Are you certain if you miss, that bullet won’t hit an innocent? Those decisions must be made instantly and perfectly. And under significant stress. LEOs train for it and f-up. It is not a war zone. Collateral damage is generally not well received.

Most of of the time you will endanger your self or others. By all means, if you cannot get yourself and those you care for out of the situation safely, stand and fight. There are no condition colors for me. If I draw, it is because I intend to shoot with absolute lethality. I never unholster otherwise. That undercover in the next isle sees me peering around with a 226 drawn and ready... not a lot of time to explain things as I bleed out.

Im simply trying to illustrate “just because you can, does not mean you should.” Safety is prime. Get yourself and those you care for to safety number one. Assess and get the hell away from the noise number two. If in a situation where you must, commit, draw and fire with absolute resolve. Anything less is silly.

 

[WaltHer]

Marie Haberfeld can go mop jizz at a peep show.

 

[WaltHer]

: "if you don’t have a clear view of the intended target, you shouldn’t even unholser your weapon." Right you should totally wait till you're eyeball-to-eyeball to be ready to fight.

"Most of of the time you will endanger your self or others." Awesome victim mentality. Maybe you should just carry your rape whistle instead.

Where'd you pick this s#it up? MSNBC's review of Everymom for Gun Safety's Guide to Concealed Carry?

 

[pmclaine]

Well it sounded to me that the event took place in a wal mart, not an open field. I’m not saying you should run into the line of fire like Rambo in some Hollywood flick. Do you have eyes on the prize around all those shelves and displays? Are you certain if you miss, that bullet won’t hit an innocent? Those decisions must be made instantly and perfectly. And under significant stress. LEOs train for it and f-up. It is not a war zone. Collateral damage is generally not well received.

Most of of the time you will endanger your self or others. By all means, if you cannot get yourself and those you care for out of the situation safely, stand and fight. There are no condition colors for me. If I draw, it is because I intend to shoot with absolute lethality. I never unholster otherwise. That undercover in the next isle sees me peering around with a 226 drawn and ready... not a lot of time to explain things as I bleed out.

Im simply trying to illustrate “just because you can, does not mean you should.” Safety is prime. Get yourself and those you care for to safety number one. Assess and get the hell away from the noise number two. If in a situation where you must, commit, draw and fire with absolute resolve. Anything less is silly.

You are quoting the irrational fears of the antis.

There were enough armed people in that Walmart that LEO apparently had to invest who was friend and who was foe. After the fact of course, they were not there during the commission of the heinous crime, they seldom are and shouldn't be expected to be. Sackless killers don't open fire on people that may shoot back - assuming those bystanders have the mindset to clear leather.

All those guns and everyone acted 100 percent responsibly.

They know the scenarios you are concerned about and they acted appropriately.

Give your fellow citizens more credit.

 

[J!m]

: "if you don’t have a clear view of the intended target, you shouldn’t even unholser your weapon." Right you should totally wait till you're eyeball-to-eyeball to be ready to fight.

"Most of of the time you will endanger your self or others." Awesome victim mentality. Maybe you should just carry your rape whistle instead.

Where'd you pick this s#it up? MSNBC's review of Everymom for Gun Safety's Guide to Concealed Carry?

Are you seriously asking this, or having a laugh?

You are falling right into their trap.

 

[spaniel]

There are no condition colors for me. If I draw, it is because I intend to shoot with absolute lethality. I never unholster otherwise.

If this is sound tactics, why do police ever draw their weapons and not fire? Why don't they just wait until they know they have to shoot to draw?

I'm a bit surprised by some of the stupidity and ignorance in this thread from "gun people".

Screw that. If there is an active shooter near me, I WILL be ready to defend myself, not waiting for them to get the drop on me around a corner and smoke me while I'm trying to extract my gun from an IWB holster under clothing.

 

[J!m]

I think you are imagining a different scenario.

If there is no no other option, make no mistake, I will shoot, and shoot to kill.

I will neither endanger those whom I care about nor myself needlessly. That is reckless and selfish.

Carry on.

 

[308pirate]

Like I give a damn what any of them are whining, wailing or sniveling about.

This

Antis can all go fuck themselves. Their wishes, even their lives, are irrelevant to me.

 

[sandwarrior]

I think you are imagining a different scenario.

If there is no no other option, make no mistake, I will shoot, and shoot to kill.

I will neither endanger those whom I care about nor myself needlessly. That is reckless and selfish.

Carry on.

Jim,

Without getting into a fight, I think in this case it would be right of you to draw and keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction. In this case the ground. Not having it out when you hear gunfire could prove fatal to you as you can't see the shooter, so you don't know his next move. I like what others say about getting to cover and out of there. The best way to not lose a gunfight is to not get in one.

I think you wanted to show fair constraint. But, in this particular case, I think it warrants you drawing, and remaining high orange, ready to go red if need be. Staying in orange also means you come across other CC'ers who you may know to not be the perp/shooter.

There is no question, this is a fine line either way. The CC'ers did well to draw and not open up on each other. I do believe they stopped more deaths and wounds from occurring.

As to the Texas church shooting today, once again, people who are not ready for violence were taken to the morgue.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Back before Eagle Claw, when Beckwith was briefing folks at the WH, he said that when his teams went into the American Embassy, there would be some hero type who would grab a weapon away from an Iranian... and that the assault team would probably kill him. They weren't going to ask to drop weapons in that situation. And they all had studied pictures of the hostages/embassy personnel endlessly, so there is a good chance they would have ID'd someone who tried to do that. But Beckwith wanted it made clear that hostages could endanger themselves.

That said, a police situation in USA is totally different. Though if someone is 'actively' shooting and can be clearly described as a potential threat, there is no need to warn the suspect. But entry teams are also pretty well trained. And the odds of 'walking in on a gunfight' are pretty remote. Seems like most of these retards, when confronted with opposition, pop themselves. That said... if an armed citizen is injured while protecting the unarmed citizens... isn't that a better price to pay than losing all the people he or she is protecting?

t would be tragic... but I still would rather have someone fighting back, even though there is a risk of them being injured when SWAT arrives... and trust that our SWAT folks have the judgement and training to IFF.

But this is all just another smoke screen put up by the left to oppose the idea of armed citizens. Another quiver in the arrow of their endless whining arguments against the Second Amendment. Because, as usual, gun control is not about guns. It's about control.

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

Every undercover cop does his job knowing that in real dangerous situations he better be identifying and displaying a badge because he is subject to being shot.

Its all in how you posture when the responding team arrives.

For a civilian holster, prone out, and when addressed identify you are lawfully armed and be compliant during the following tense moments when it is determined how lawfully you are armed.

Much more dangerous for the under cover guy as he is likely working and possibly in a situation where he cant so easily display a "no threat" posture.

If anyone thinks it easy do some two second flip targets with pictured subjects ranging from man with pistol to a womans head, man in civilian clothes pointing pistol at you wearing badge on belt, I like the ones that challenge stereotypes - Man dressed like homeless street bum with gun drawn on better dressed man and you have to ID the badge on the belt of the homeless guy.

People expect our cops to perform in such situations flawlessly. Really? How when they are lucky to do such drills once a year and only as a one time run through between the dry run qual course and the for record qual course.

Im not a firearms instructor but if I was, I think watching the results of shoot/no shoot drills would keep me up at night.

Truth be told lots of our gun enthusiast neighbors have much better training IDPA type shooters do hostage and shoot/no shoot drills almost every weekend.

Sure there are gun owners that think "responsible" means buying it that day carrying it that night with no further training but I think they are not the norm.

 

[Slash0311]

LEO rule to go by, UNIFORMED officers have priority over undercover officers. That means if any officer in uniform gives a UC directions, IE drop the gun, show me your hands, get on the ground, the UC follows that direction. It's not up for discussion. We train for active shooter scenarios for that because you may have off duty officers and on duty responding.

As for keep a gun in the holster till needed, that's a good way to loose a gun fight. I'm not saying g it totally wrong but with the speed a brain processes information, you are already behind in reacting to the decisions of others. On traffic stops, if I think something is odd, wrong, or otherwise has my "spidy sense" going crazy, I can draw my weapon on the approach to the vehicle. Doesn't mean I have to show it, point it or the like, but having it out will speed up the time it takes to present it to a threat. Let officers start a qualification course with them drawn and they'll do it every time to shave time off the clock.

Considering the Walmart shooting. Most concealment guns aren't great for longer distances for handguns. For "average Joe" on the street, that would certainly factor into whether to aggressively go after a bad guy or defend in place. Then be aware of the police response and act accordingly. The stress will be causing physical responses. Tunnel vision, increased heart rate, decreased fine motor skills, auditory exclusion just for a few will add to the problems faced.