Let's pretend that someone bought a vintage leather sofa set at an estate sale of a stranger. Sofa set gets put in storage for another year, then taken out and set up. While cleaning said sofa, a S&W 649 hammerless .38 snubbie falls out of the depths, fully loaded and covered in dust. Lets pretend that the pistol is in great shape for having been stored in the bottom of the sofa for who knows how long. What does the new owner of said sofa set do with the surprise? Keep it, turn it in to LE, or any other options? Let's also pretend that the Finder has no intention of selling or trading it...
Finders Keepers?
- Thread starter kabarNC
- Start date
Firstly, one should consider the laws in one's state. Then one should find a way to check if the sn is listed as stolen. Then ponder your options.
you keep that shit....
estate sales 101: you buy the item, you get to keep anything you find inside it.*
you turn it into the police, they are going to hold it in evidence for several years then eventually destroy it.
the sellers dont want it (even if you could find them).....they had no idea it was in there and youd be causing them a headache showing up years later trying to return a gun they dont want and dont know what to do with.
keep it and enjoy it.
*provided its legal
estate sales 101: you buy the item, you get to keep anything you find inside it.*
you turn it into the police, they are going to hold it in evidence for several years then eventually destroy it.
the sellers dont want it (even if you could find them).....they had no idea it was in there and youd be causing them a headache showing up years later trying to return a gun they dont want and dont know what to do with.
keep it and enjoy it.
*provided its legal
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It’s yours! But, you should make sure it’s not been reported lost or stolen to protect yourself. You wouldn’t want to be caught with it in your possession if it was flagged stolen. Depending on your States laws for mislaid property, I would run a found add in the paper. No specifics like ser number or where you found it.Then I would contact local LE and see if they will run the numbers and provide you a report. Depending on the state law they may let you keep it while they investigate.Just have to protect yourself. You bought the couch that includes all it’s contents.
If you can return it to the rightful owner without going through too much trouble, that would be the right thing to do. It's obviously not a heirloom, but could still have a lot of meaning to the family. No way in hell would I take it to the police; you have more right to it than they do.
Donate it to the Baltimore police department.
There is no rightful owner but you. It was an estate sale and therefore would have BEEN owned by the state. The estate is now, most likely, closed and hence, no one to rightfully return it to. That said though, I would check to make sure it's not reported stolen. Even if it is, you may be able to rectify the ownership issue.
Or like AJ said, the Bmore PD could put it to good use.
Or like AJ said, the Bmore PD could put it to good use.
LE can, but they will want to have it in hand before running the number. Now you have to ask yourself if your local sheriff dept or police dept are the kind of dicks that will want to take possession of it even if not listed as stolen on NCIC.
A number of years ago I bought a broken Chelsea Mantle Clock at an estate sale in Maine. The seller had no idea what he had on his hands and told me it was built in the 1950s. Bought it for $350. Being a clock/watch person, I knew what he didn't know. It was built in 1899 and was one of the first clocks built by them after being renamed. It had a gong versus a bell which made it even rarer. It was worth close to 10X what I paid for it even in the state it was in. When I took it home, I was going to take it apart and clean it as I was sure that was all that was necessary. When I took the movement out of the case, I found a $20 double eagle gold piece.....The God's were smiling on me that day.
Keep it and use it ...as long as it is never used in a crime or defense, no one will know.
Keep it and use it ...as long as it is never used in a crime or defense, no one will know.
I did not read every post in this thread, so mea culpa if I missed something.
My understanding of basic property law, is that lost property does not automatically transfer to the finder. If you were to find my wallet or iPhone at a gas station, you could be charged with theft for simply keeping it. This in particular, because both of those items likely provide more than enough info to find the owner, not unlike a serial number on a gun (in some cases). An 'aggravator' or mitigator would be IF you took any reasonable steps to find the owner......any at all. If this gun were stolen or used in a crime that too would complicate matters.
Having said that, this is a lost gun and not some trivial item. If the gun was reported lost or stolen then it could come up as such should it ever be "run" through the database. (if reported at the time)
Now you could say "it will never be run through a database" but really that is never completely under your control and could happen for a variety of reasons.
Depending on the laws in your state, my guess is that if you took police station and explained the situation, they would run it through the system and if nothing comes up give it back to you. Of course this very much depends on you location and how pro or anti gun that dept. is.....
Whatever you decide, be aware that anything posted on the internet could be used against you.....
(I am not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night
)
My understanding of basic property law, is that lost property does not automatically transfer to the finder. If you were to find my wallet or iPhone at a gas station, you could be charged with theft for simply keeping it. This in particular, because both of those items likely provide more than enough info to find the owner, not unlike a serial number on a gun (in some cases). An 'aggravator' or mitigator would be IF you took any reasonable steps to find the owner......any at all. If this gun were stolen or used in a crime that too would complicate matters.
Having said that, this is a lost gun and not some trivial item. If the gun was reported lost or stolen then it could come up as such should it ever be "run" through the database. (if reported at the time)
Now you could say "it will never be run through a database" but really that is never completely under your control and could happen for a variety of reasons.
Depending on the laws in your state, my guess is that if you took police station and explained the situation, they would run it through the system and if nothing comes up give it back to you. Of course this very much depends on you location and how pro or anti gun that dept. is.....
Whatever you decide, be aware that anything posted on the internet could be used against you.....
(I am not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night
)
OP to random police officer:
I've been offered for sale this pistol... could you tell me how to run the serial number before I buy it. I just want to make sure it isn't stolen or reported missing.
Or, if you have a trusted FFL have them run it as a courtesy.
I've been offered for sale this pistol... could you tell me how to run the serial number before I buy it. I just want to make sure it isn't stolen or reported missing.
Or, if you have a trusted FFL have them run it as a courtesy.
Keep in mind some state laws vary.... in Georgia there is a charge of Theft of Lost or Mislaid Property.
That charge is enough to get you a felony in Georgia.
Even without a formal report being filed in the past for it missing/lost does not by law protect someone from finding it and not going through the proper channels of getting it or attempting to get it to the proper owner.
Essentialy it comes down to the laws of your state but more importantly the measure of a persons character/ Integrity.
Just my .02 worth.
That charge is enough to get you a felony in Georgia.
Even without a formal report being filed in the past for it missing/lost does not by law protect someone from finding it and not going through the proper channels of getting it or attempting to get it to the proper owner.
Essentialy it comes down to the laws of your state but more importantly the measure of a persons character/ Integrity.
Just my .02 worth.
FFL does not have access to that info. Just LE. Don't lie to LE about how you got it or why you want it ran. What if you lie and it turns out to be reported as stolen?
If you do take it to LE, put it in a box or something and don't let the first words out of your mouth be "I've got a gun".
If you do take it to LE, put it in a box or something and don't let the first words out of your mouth be "I've got a gun".
Nothing good ever comes with public police interaction. Do not ever give info about yourself, your property, family or friends to the police. Do not talk to cops ever.
^^^^ This ^^^^
most States have a Statute on the books regarding that situation
http://kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2..._article/021_058_0002_section/021_058_0002_k/
most States have a Statute on the books regarding that situation
http://kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2..._article/021_058_0002_section/021_058_0002_k/
Not for nuthin', but nobody has brought up yet another tangent of possibilities. God Forbid, that firearm was used in a crime. (stolen or not/reported or not) If ever there's a situation where a 'bullet' gets traced back to it, then what?
We all see it all the time, as soon as the ballistics are run through NCIC, your life can go from "normal" to "getting shanked in prison" in 42 minutes.
And yes, that WAS satirous sarcasm, right there. The basis of every tv show, no?
We all see it all the time, as soon as the ballistics are run through NCIC, your life can go from "normal" to "getting shanked in prison" in 42 minutes.
And yes, that WAS satirous sarcasm, right there. The basis of every tv show, no?
Not for nuthin', but nobody has brought up yet another tangent of possibilities. God Forbid, that firearm was used in a crime. (stolen or not/reported or not) If ever there's a situation where a 'bullet' gets traced back to it, then what?
We all see it all the time, as soon as the ballistics are run through NCIC, your life can go from "normal" to "getting shanked in prison" in 42 minutes.
And yes, that WAS satirous sarcasm, right there. The basis of every tv show, no?
You keep it and make it a 'Boat Gun'. No big loss if ya gotta toss it over the side.
legally its not lost.....its purchased.I did not read every post in this thread, so mea culpa if I missed something.
My understanding of basic property law, is that lost property does not automatically transfer to the finder. If you were to find my wallet or iPhone at a gas station, you could be charged with theft for simply keeping it. This in particular, because both of those items likely provide more than enough info to find the owner, not unlike a serial number on a gun (in some cases). An 'aggravator' or mitigator would be IF you took any reasonable steps to find the owner......any at all. If this gun were stolen or used in a crime that too would complicate matters.
Having said that, this is a lost gun and not some trivial item. If the gun was reported lost or stolen then it could come up as such should it ever be "run" through the database. (if reported at the time)
Now you could say "it will never be run through a database" but really that is never completely under your control and could happen for a variety of reasons.
Depending on the laws in your state, my guess is that if you took police station and explained the situation, they would run it through the system and if nothing comes up give it back to you. Of course this very much depends on you location and how pro or anti gun that dept. is.....
Whatever you decide, be aware that anything posted on the internet could be used against you.....
(I am not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night
items sold at an estate sale are sold "as is".......if you buy an object, you but the object, and everything in it, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
if you buy a toolbox....you get the tools in it.
if you buy a couch.......you get the gun stuffed in the cushions.
lost would be if you found it in a park
then nothing.....you tell them you got the gun at an estate sale.....simply owning a gun does not make you guilty.....especially when you have a plausible explanation....theyd still have to establish means, and a motive.
its not like TV where they "run it through the lab" and whoever owns the gun is guilty.
There are a plethora of cases where property has been purchased at an estate auction, only to have found to be stolen and returned to its original owner. This is a couch with a gun in it- not a "tool box with tools in it".
Furthermore some states strictly regulate private transfers.
I did not read every post in this thread, so mea culpa if I missed something.
My understanding of basic property law, is that lost property does not automatically transfer to the finder. If you were to find my wallet or iPhone at a gas station, you could be charged with theft for simply keeping it. This in particular, because both of those items likely provide more than enough info to find the owner, not unlike a serial number on a gun (in some cases). An 'aggravator' or mitigator would be IF you took any reasonable steps to find the owner......any at all. If this gun were stolen or used in a crime that too would complicate matters.
Having said that, this is a lost gun and not some trivial item. If the gun was reported lost or stolen then it could come up as such should it ever be "run" through the database. (if reported at the time)
Now you could say "it will never be run through a database" but really that is never completely under your control and could happen for a variety of reasons.
Depending on the laws in your state, my guess is that if you took police station and explained the situation, they would run it through the system and if nothing comes up give it back to you. Of course this very much depends on you location and how pro or anti gun that dept. is.....
Whatever you decide, be aware that anything posted on the internet could be used against you.....
(I am not a lawyer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night
In this case, we are only pretending. The OP made it very clear this is just a pretend situation. Secondly, in this pretend situation, the gun was not just found somewhere and kept by the finder. A sofa was bought, as is. It just so happened to have a firearm hidden in it. Since that's the way the sofa was bought at the time of the purchase, and the purchase was an "as is" purchase, doesn't this mean he didn't just find and keep something that was lost?
Yea we all understand this is just “pretend”..... ?
So your premis is that if I lose a pistol. Report it lost. And 2 years later it turns up in my deceased buddy’s couch having been sold at an estates sale, this is tantamount to lost change? It would automatically transfer to the purchaser of the couch? I would have no claim to said pistol ,which is proven to be mine through a lost gun police report?
I don’t believe in most cases that is supported by case law but since I am not a lawyer, you could be right. Hopefully an actual lawyer will chime in.
I do believe that the fact that this is a gun that indeed is an aggravating factor here.
I think some of the posts may be directed at my LOST/MISLAID response earlier.
As mention im using GA law and have seen this and used this in cases in my past.
Do a Google search for Georgia Law 16-8-6. It is under Title 16 - Chapter 8 - Article 1.
Lost and Mislaid are two different terms both used under the same code section.
The Penalties section again under GEORGIA law is O.C.G.A 16-8-12
There is a mentioning specificaly about firearms.
As mention im using GA law and have seen this and used this in cases in my past.
Do a Google search for Georgia Law 16-8-6. It is under Title 16 - Chapter 8 - Article 1.
Lost and Mislaid are two different terms both used under the same code section.
The Penalties section again under GEORGIA law is O.C.G.A 16-8-12
There is a mentioning specificaly about firearms.
I would call my county sheriff and tell him/her the truth and ask them to run the s/n. A reasonable effort to locate the original owner should be made. If they are deceased, and it was not used in a crime or reported as stolen, you may have a claim to keep it.
Irish
Irish
Do you know a cop?
If yes, ask said cop to run the SN for you, easy. If it comes back stolen he can collect it. All that's needed to run a gun through NCIC is the SN. The system will ping on any gun with that SN that's been reported. If something comes back then the NCIC terminal operator will need the details of the weapon to verify if it's the correct one.
If no, then call your local PD/SO and ask I feel there's a process to check it. If I were still on the job I could run this for you faster than it takes to type all of this. If you're really out of options I still know enough guys that can probably check it for me with just an SN and if it comes back hot they could simply say "nope, different gun" when verifying in NCIC.
Unless you live in some ridiculous jurisdiction, either way you're fine. I dealt with this on multiple occasions where a person would be in possession of a firearm that had been reported stolen. They explained how they came to possess it, and if those means were credible and would not cause a reasonable person to believe they were acquiring stolen property then the gun was taken and sent to the originating agency and the guy got cut loose.
There's almost no way that gun could cause you a legal problem in most of free America. If you're in occupied territory then all bets are off.
If yes, ask said cop to run the SN for you, easy. If it comes back stolen he can collect it. All that's needed to run a gun through NCIC is the SN. The system will ping on any gun with that SN that's been reported. If something comes back then the NCIC terminal operator will need the details of the weapon to verify if it's the correct one.
If no, then call your local PD/SO and ask I feel there's a process to check it. If I were still on the job I could run this for you faster than it takes to type all of this. If you're really out of options I still know enough guys that can probably check it for me with just an SN and if it comes back hot they could simply say "nope, different gun" when verifying in NCIC.
Unless you live in some ridiculous jurisdiction, either way you're fine. I dealt with this on multiple occasions where a person would be in possession of a firearm that had been reported stolen. They explained how they came to possess it, and if those means were credible and would not cause a reasonable person to believe they were acquiring stolen property then the gun was taken and sent to the originating agency and the guy got cut loose.
There's almost no way that gun could cause you a legal problem in most of free America. If you're in occupied territory then all bets are off.
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I emailed a link to this thread to my gun trust lawyer over at www.guntrustguru.com. His response below (posted with his permission).
"That’s actually a complicated subject, and the correct answer depends on state law. However, after limited research, I believe that he probably should return the firearm to the estate, since it was mislaid property."
"That’s actually a complicated subject, and the correct answer depends on state law. However, after limited research, I believe that he probably should return the firearm to the estate, since it was mislaid property."
Odds are that it was someone's concealment piece. Kept in sofa. Lots of paranoids do that.
Just keep it and enjoy it.
If you have any concerns... take to FFL and have them transfer it to... you. If anything comes up... you have a paper trail.
But it's not valuable... and is a nice shooter. And you got in a sofa. Doubt that the bullet shows up in John Gotti... Just relax and enjoy it.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Just keep it and enjoy it.
If you have any concerns... take to FFL and have them transfer it to... you. If anything comes up... you have a paper trail.
But it's not valuable... and is a nice shooter. And you got in a sofa. Doubt that the bullet shows up in John Gotti... Just relax and enjoy it.
Cheers,
Sirhr
You keep the gun. Why is this even a question?
Anyone could have sold that gun to anyone, who then turned around and did a FTF sale with you.
You should also delete this thread.
Here's a quick litmus test:
Prove to anyone how I got any of the firearms I have from a FTF in person sale.
Am I a prohibited person? No.
Is the gun stolen? No.
There's no proof, nor is there a requirement that you go through the FFL on a firearms transfer unless its specifically a law in your state or you chose a route where an FFL needs to be involved such as buying a firearm online and having it shipped.
Anyone could have sold that gun to anyone, who then turned around and did a FTF sale with you.
You should also delete this thread.
Here's a quick litmus test:
Prove to anyone how I got any of the firearms I have from a FTF in person sale.
Am I a prohibited person? No.
Is the gun stolen? No.
There's no proof, nor is there a requirement that you go through the FFL on a firearms transfer unless its specifically a law in your state or you chose a route where an FFL needs to be involved such as buying a firearm online and having it shipped.
I agree mit Herr Deutscher, claim it and enjoy. If you're paranoid it may be stolen or whatever; without explanation go to LE and ask them to look up a make/model/serial number. If it's clean, walk out. That said, I live somewhere where there is no bureaucracy with FTF private sales. If you're living in NY, NJ or CA then you're probably already a felon.
