So Colt’s C20 won another contract in 2020. Not bad for an irrelevant company with no innovation. Seems they bested HK for the win.
- Thread starter Jsp556
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Hi,
Because military procurement contracts pretty much have ZERO to do with innovation, best product, etc etc and more to do with stipulations, kickbacks and numbers.
Sincerely,
Theis
Because military procurement contracts pretty much have ZERO to do with innovation, best product, etc etc and more to do with stipulations, kickbacks and numbers.
Sincerely,
Theis
Colt Canada still builds a nice product, the only thing that changed at the diemaco factory was the name.
At least it wasn’t Sig
Colt Canada builds a fantastic precision platform that by all accounts, it's top notch
In Canadian testing the C20 averaged .66 MOA across 144 separate 5 shot groups taken at different intervals during an 8 thousand round test with no stoppages.
I think the rifles will do fine.
Colt Canada (nee Diemaco) isn't on the cutting edge of innovation in the sense that they don't do ground up designs (like you do!) but they have arguably taken the US M16 TDP and made many small but meaningful changes that enhance the reliability and operation of the firearm. Their CHF barrels are damn nice too.
Hi,
Yea my previous comment really wasn't about Colt Canada's quality,,,it was more in terms of heading off the potential debates of "Military uses it so it has to be the best in the world" type arguements.
Can you get access to their CHF barrels lol?
Sincerely,
Theis
Fair point. Military procurement here in Canukistan is just as broken as anywhere else. We almost couldn't get a new pistol for our soldiers:
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/nati...-new-pistols-bids-to-be-requested-in-february
Well, before the recent government....intervention....we could get their barrels with a free upper recevier, handguard and all the other accoutrements. I have a 10" one that will probably join me in my grave in an act of spite.
One of the mantras drilled into me still remains current.
"Always remember your equipment was supplied by the lowest bidder."
"Always remember your equipment was supplied by the lowest bidder."
It wasn’t a “Military uses it so it must be the best.” post. It wasn’t my intent that it did. Most people view Colt as a dead company and discount their ability to produce a product that competes, much less beats, other mfgs products such as HK’s in a trial. I figured people would read the link and see the performance of the rifle in that and other articles. My bad.
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lowest bidder that meets or exceeds the performance standard
Not always true, sometimes the technical specifications are tailored to suit a certain product.
Not really. I understand what he said.
Well it's probably budget related?
How so? As an EU member state they wouldn't pay customs, excise, or tariff so the guns might be cheaper, coming straight from neighboring Germany (and they own HK417Ss now).
Article from first post:
Danish Armed Forces Chose New Sniper Rifle - Colt Canada C20 DMR -
The Danish Armed Forces have selected Colt Canada C20 Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) in 7.62x51 mm as their new sniper rifle. The C20 DMR is intended to replace the current Heckler & Koch HK417S (Sniper). The Danish name will be Finskyttegevaer, Kort (FINSKGV K).
www.thefirearmblog.com Danish Armed Forces Chose New Sniper Rifle – Colt Canada C20 DMR
Posted September 25, 2020
Colt Canada C20 Designated Marksman Rifle - Finskyttegevaer, Kort (FINSKGV K). Picture by Forsvarsministeriets Materiel- og Indkøbsstyrelse.
The Danish Armed Forces have selected Colt Canada C20 Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) in 7.62×51 mm as their new sniper rifle. The C20 DMR is intended to replace the current Heckler & Koch HK417S (Sniper). The Danish name will be Finskyttegevaer, Kort (FINSKGV K). Roughly translated it means “fine shooting rifle, short”, and it will be introduced from the first quarter of 2021.
Picture by Colt Canada
On Facebook, the procurement organization of the Danish Ministry of Defense – Forsvarsministeriets Materiel- og Indkøbsstyrelse – published the following (the text is machine translated from Danish):
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I find it interesting that all of these DM rifles that keep getting adopted are in 7.62 Nato. I know the virtues of the creedmor but evidently these militaries don’t or their procurement officers need to spend some time on the forums To learn a thing or two.
NATO standardized ammo means during a (real) war they default to Uncle providing -- same as the last two world wars.
Which Army ammunition plant loads 6.5 Creedmoor again?
Which Army ammunition plant loads 6.5 Creedmoor again?
Good for them. Hopefully they can keep their QA up to par and maintain that accuracy. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a C20 upper assemblySo Colt’s C20 won another contract in 2020. Not bad for an irrelevant company with no innovation. Seems they bested HK for the win.
It looks like it's based on the Colt 901 pattern.
I'm a bit surprised to see they're switching from HK 417, you don't replace an entire platform just because the current rifles "are about to be worn out", imho it's either something political or they're unhappy with the 417.
I'm a bit surprised to see they're switching from HK 417, you don't replace an entire platform just because the current rifles "are about to be worn out", imho it's either something political or they're unhappy with the 417.
Somewhat interesting how they went with a non euro rifle. in my opinion, I think that the big two euro firms are a little overrated. I think they make some solid firearms, but gun for gun, I think that American firms eat their lunch when it comes to small arms designs. Weight, Durability, reliability, recoil, modularity, refinement.
The monolithic upper should be a nice change up for mount NV stuff
The monolithic upper should be a nice change up for mount NV stuff
Likely built for the same solicitation, but I haven’t done the research to back that up.
One has to remember that the average sniper shot is under 200 yards and in the USA, it’s under 100 yards. Yes, there’s examples of 2,000 yard plus shots, but they are the exceptions. My local Leo’s use sks’s as their swat sniper rifles. They are on a good day moa rifles. Snipers are about putting people on the ground, not .1 groups.
More guns that never leave the Fob even if ISAF deployed.
I am sure some irrelevent nation buying 12 guns is news worthy in Europe, but not here.
I am sure some irrelevent nation buying 12 guns is news worthy in Europe, but not here.
Not so much in Canada. Since we lack a vibrant firearms industry (for military-type firearms) we have a special arrangement where Colt Canada basically has a monopoly on firearms manufacture for the feds. Thus the new Ranger (not the same Ranger) Rifle is a Tikka CTR made in Canada by Colt Canada. Because they have a monopoly the cost is likely higher, but the quality is likely better too since they can charge for it instead of trying to cut corners to meet the bid price.
For large scale procurements this works fairly well, but it sucks for small things like pistols. FOr the numbers we need no one wants to hand over their TDP to Colt Canada. So we are actually not using Colt Canada for the pistol procurement per my link at post #10 above.
I was going to ask if PSA is putting these together for Colt with the appropriate custom engraving but than I saw the drop on the front hinge pin indicating its a 901.
Maybe they are thinking they will use 5.56 for training purposes.......
Maybe they are thinking they will use 5.56 for training purposes.......
The same ones supplying 6.5cm to the mik for last 5 plus years.
They are moving away from GOCR facilities and buying ammo commerically as part of the weapon system solicitations.
See next gen rifle and MHS contract for example.
You mean those "Rangers" that were still using SMLEs and would eat a seal, not those SEALs, if necessary to live off the land.
I liked their old rifles.
Colt canada/ diemeco makes fantasric firearms.
Lowest bidder does not mean winning bidder. There are and can be alot of selecting factors and even on a lowest price technically acceptable solicitation, the bidder still has to meet all the miniumum requirements. Set a low bar get shit, but most have requirements 95% of commerical guns could never meet. Usualy people who spout the lowest bidder shit are rocking guns that would not even be accepted in comparison to the gear they are trashing which meets the requirements.
True that. There are also mechanisms to weight other factors besides cost, such as ratings on various criteria like performance or Canadian content. But, like any other system it can be gamed by both parties of the resulting contract.
That's the million dollar question. I personally hope so.
Yea that is the best thing that could ever happen.
Colt has been corporate raided, missmanaged and stollen from for decades...with ownership taking out massive amounts of debt, withdrawing money from company and declaring bankruptcy. They have extracted hundreds of millions of dollars to these greedy fucks pocket books while saddling the company with debt.
A well run fireams company like CZ is exactly what colt needs, along with moving out of communist new england.
Colt has been corporate raided, missmanaged and stollen from for decades...with ownership taking out massive amounts of debt, withdrawing money from company and declaring bankruptcy. They have extracted hundreds of millions of dollars to these greedy fucks pocket books while saddling the company with debt.
A well run fireams company like CZ is exactly what colt needs, along with moving out of communist new england.
What's really sad is Colt has 0 presence in the US market for 308 AR and yet can will military contracts external to Canada with their offering. Seems like a lost oppurtunity, even in a crowded market, Colt brand still carries some weight
I think their work force is under the autoworkers or some shit.
The union hasnt done the company many favors either.
Thing is right now, or at least a year or two ago, people claim Colt is making the nicest 1911 guns they ever have.
I looked at the 901 when I was shopping large semi. I thought the ability to also get a 5.56 set up would be cool.
Than I read about the difficulty in getting conversion parts, and the proprietary nature of the upper/lower.
Ended up going LMT which has its own proprietary issues but the company is responsive to the customer (except in times of panic).
I ended up getting one of the closeout LE901-16SE guns on the cheap when I traded my Larue for a Scar 20s just to keep an Ar10 type around. It has since become my favorite 308 carbine I have owned and I have had a few including multiple SCAR 17s, an HK MR308, an LMT and a couple Larues. The thing is within .3 of a pound of the SCAR 17s with a longer monolithic 7075T6 upper receiver and lower, a heat shield, much better stock(I’m sure I could cut some weight here by swapping the vltor for something else), and a MUCH heavier profile barrel.
Colt would have a winner if they supported it adequately and had any form of marketing at all. Colt Canada continues to evolve and improve the monolithic guns and their newest offerings seem absolutely top tier.
Colt would have a winner if they supported it adequately and had any form of marketing at all. Colt Canada continues to evolve and improve the monolithic guns and their newest offerings seem absolutely top tier.
While Colt has managed to maintain quality--they absolutely NEVER miss a chance to shoot themselves in the foot.
There products are good, but definitly lack support. I also started in the AWB era where Colt was persona-non-grata for pin size issues and other issues.
I'd love to get a python or cobra, but the new ones are twice that of a S&W (I understand the collectors price for older ones--I shoot, not collect). I don't want one that bad.
And FFS, 1911s. They may a good one, but a lot of people do. Meanwhile STI (another company that now servers "operators only") can jack their prices to the moon for their double stack, while Colt did nothing for years (laughs in Rock Island).
They offer no new products for years, then come out with two revolvers--definitly a niche market. Can't make money on AR-15s despite being "the standard" SMH.
Feeling like I need to go tell people to get off my lawn.
The above is very true. I always joked that the market doesn’t need another striker fired 9mm, but Colt sure does.
I think colt sort of suffers from the same mindset that some of the euro firms have, and at least in the same case as HK have experience finacial issues as result for the past 3 decades or so.
I think that while both Colt and HK make quality weapons, I think that they are emotionally tied to their designs and struggle to really refine their product line as somehow that would undermine the work that they did in the past.
If HK's case,
I think that the best work they probably did was the Mp5 and they never really figured out a way to bring it into the 21st century.
I think that the 416 is a solid weapon, but today, does not outperform a good DI in any metric while costing and weighing more.
I think that their Scar clone looks interesting but considering the German army passed on it for a knock off 416, I do not believe to be a gamer changer.
Lastly, why do HK piston guns weigh so much? When a small US company such as POF can produce a reliable 308 gas gun that weighs less that your 556 carbine, I think it may be time to make some refinements
In Colts case,
I think that while the m4/6920 is a great weapon, its still a something that is stuck in the early 90's. Some of this changed with the Block II program but that was not colts doing.
I think that with the amount of test data that they had on 855A1, stuff like the URG-I should of been theirs for the taking.
No real experiments with next generation coatings or gas system length
HKs problems are they spend so much on facilities, labor, r&d that they really dont make alot of profit, combined with german government restrictions. They need a US plant desperately.
COLTS problem is criminals and thiefs have run the show for the last 4+ decades, using the company and is brand as a personal atm loading the company with debt and then taking money out instead of reinvesting it. Colt is nothing but a credit card for venture capitalists that they max out and never pay the bill.
