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Making fun of his height is amateur level.
Making fun of him for damn near crashing a rental into into fence line at K&M (the original in FL) is WAY more fun.
I think a large reason there hasn't been much said about the summit is that most like myself don't really have a dog in the fight in some ways. I'm not a MD im not a range owner I'm just a guy who likes to shoot and who trys to RO as my was of helping contribute to a game I play. That said I think for everybody that can actually effect changes and do something to help reroute this bus we can precision rifle, a summit would be a widely beneficial thing. I mean isn't that what our parents did to us as kids when we couldn't get along, sit us down make us talk out why we were fighting and shake hands at the end.
It’s true there is very little discussion happening in public
But on the back side several have reached out, not nearly as many as i hoped but many
The back channels are open, people are using them, although Just as many for entertainment which is funny but unfortunate but it happens
As I noted there are certain Factions that are hungry for change, those guy are very hungry, they are stepping up. so the plan has to be moved to the field this spring, maybe a few test cases, that was mentioned creating a couple laboratory experiments with a select group.
The vibe I am getting is, a willingness to address the minor issues and to revamp some of the competitive elements and if they happen to run alongside the current competitions, great, I think a heck of a lot more planning and thought needs to be put into this=, the PRS never did it, hence the fact they have no processes in place.
We’ll see, at the end of the day, I may just make SHC a standalone event that follows my line of thinking call it good
clearly people are not happy, but not being happy and still willing to changing the direction are not always related
But on the back side several have reached out, not nearly as many as i hoped but many
The back channels are open, people are using them, although Just as many for entertainment which is funny but unfortunate but it happens
As I noted there are certain Factions that are hungry for change, those guy are very hungry, they are stepping up. so the plan has to be moved to the field this spring, maybe a few test cases, that was mentioned creating a couple laboratory experiments with a select group.
The vibe I am getting is, a willingness to address the minor issues and to revamp some of the competitive elements and if they happen to run alongside the current competitions, great, I think a heck of a lot more planning and thought needs to be put into this=, the PRS never did it, hence the fact they have no processes in place.
We’ll see, at the end of the day, I may just make SHC a standalone event that follows my line of thinking call it good
clearly people are not happy, but not being happy and still willing to changing the direction are not always related
I cant crash a rental if i am not in the driver seat or can i ...
Either that or boxing gloves behind the barn...
You just need to move the SHC back to middle 'merica!
If the NRL is in fact a non-profit, why is it that the IPRF states they are a private, corperate brand that is then unable to affiliate as an official representative within their association structure at the international level?
Is the "USPRA" a non-profit? If so, with respect to the proposed summit - why not (besides money) just convert the NRL to the membership body of USPRA and combine the two into one group? That would allow them to be more "official" and provide the USPRA an actual group of members to affiliate with. Is this not basically the reason why USPSA was created as a member of the IPSC? Also, is the IPRF affiliated with the IPSC and the World Rifle Championship?
Is the "USPRA" a non-profit? If so, with respect to the proposed summit - why not (besides money) just convert the NRL to the membership body of USPRA and combine the two into one group? That would allow them to be more "official" and provide the USPRA an actual group of members to affiliate with. Is this not basically the reason why USPSA was created as a member of the IPSC? Also, is the IPRF affiliated with the IPSC and the World Rifle Championship?
I'd love for this to be a realistic case.
But the Anti 2A are only about the "take", and never about the "give". Attempting to engage with these people on level ground is like trying to negotiate with a starving shark. They have but a single goal, and treating any of us as equals and meeting with our requests was never a part of it.
Greg
They were not talking the NRL it;s the PRS that is private who was looking internationally
Just thinking about the big picture here. Because the email from the IPRF specifically calls out NRL in reference to Coke and Pepsi. But what was not acknowledged is that BOTH Coke and Pepsi are FOR profit corperations while it seems the NRL is not. That fact undermines a lot of the points the IPRF championed as the "reason for" the IPRF and its newly created associate USPRA.
Makes me think the IPRF is afraid of confronting the PRS monetarily or that by endorsing or directly associating with the NRL they would be "taking sides"?
I've also been thinking overnight, about those prize tables. Trying to lighten that load would seem better served by doing what this economy and political situation has disabled.
A certificate for a discount on the sponsor's product, transferable, either as a percentage or as a specific value would be nice. Or, as an alternative, issuing a transferable "Move my order to the front of the queue" certificate would definitely get the attention of the potential competitors. Not sure about the legality, but ammo on the table, physically, or for shipping from set aside stocks (i.e. immediate) could be attractive as well.
The basis of my suggestions is that shooting as an activity, right now, is being squeezed through several knotholes; and adding a few more to alleviate some of the stresses involved could be especially attractive.
Greg
A certificate for a discount on the sponsor's product, transferable, either as a percentage or as a specific value would be nice. Or, as an alternative, issuing a transferable "Move my order to the front of the queue" certificate would definitely get the attention of the potential competitors. Not sure about the legality, but ammo on the table, physically, or for shipping from set aside stocks (i.e. immediate) could be attractive as well.
The basis of my suggestions is that shooting as an activity, right now, is being squeezed through several knotholes; and adding a few more to alleviate some of the stresses involved could be especially attractive.
Greg
Go back and read it, they called out Shannon for CCing the NRL group in direct competition with them
This is all a PRS discussion, these are not NRL affiliated groups
No NRL in any of this...
I’m talking more about the local ma and pa on the fence folks. Not the Shannon watts or chris cuomo. There’s no helping that level of stupid. It has to be more than an obligatory picture with an over under shotgun shooting clays
The reason is there are international rules that a private business cannot help them with so they had to create an organization that meets international requirements for a sport that the PRS does not meet
The international aspect, as well as the European counties have different rules, a private business is not considered in those rules so they are discussing how to bridge the pond within the rules so all parties can work together. So they need certain identities in place that way everyone can work together
The PRS believed their outreach was enough to satifisy this because nothing here is officially organized as a recognized sport. We are just a loose collection of people doing things how we see Fit, once you leave US shores, you really can’t just brand yourself a sport. You have to set it up correctly
The PRS felt their private business was, it was not, and then got mad because people were doing it correctly is basically how I see the breakdown of this
The international aspect, as well as the European counties have different rules, a private business is not considered in those rules so they are discussing how to bridge the pond within the rules so all parties can work together. So they need certain identities in place that way everyone can work together
The PRS believed their outreach was enough to satifisy this because nothing here is officially organized as a recognized sport. We are just a loose collection of people doing things how we see Fit, once you leave US shores, you really can’t just brand yourself a sport. You have to set it up correctly
The PRS felt their private business was, it was not, and then got mad because people were doing it correctly is basically how I see the breakdown of this
I am aware that the messages are between the PRS and the IPRF. That the NRL as a subject is a third party.
What I am asking about is why the IPRF did not affiliate with the NRL in the first place? A non-profit/ngo is not a business by definition.
Why is it that the IPRF states in their response to Shannon (PRS) about how the IPRF cannot work with the NRL?
Is the NRL organized to benefit just specific ranges and range owners that host matches or whats the reasoning there? On the other hand if I were the IPRF and that group is a membership org why not talk with them about revising their charter to meet the requirements for the IPRF.
The USPRA I suppose is fresh and clean. But all of the baggage of the new leaders will follow it regardless.
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I'm guessing, just guessing here, even though NRL is a non-profit, it is still a private held entity. And that's why it can't be recognized internationally?
I think it is two factions overseas they are fighting too there are dueling groups of people
So in SA there is an NRL Guy, and PRS Guy, the IPRF was the PRS leaning guy.
He maybe able to go to the NRL, but just like here I believe it was just like Coke vs Pepsi
Shannon will not let anyone associate with the NRL, so a range can’t split their loyalties which is part of the same but different discussions. Shannon has held Match Directors to certain unspoken, but well known rules. Those rules are used to combat competition, but they are really not very good for the sport.
This is partly why there is a divide, if you play with me, you can’t play with her. Meanwhile in the beginning every single person in this discussion played together everyone was friends. Then money got involved and business practices started to get cutthroat and bordering on illegal activity by trying to leverage popularity to beat the other person up with
When most of us spoke of this, we had not real proof, our word against theirs on why these things were fracturing in the community. Most of this is done by phone or in person, so no paper trail. This provided a paper trail
People want to grow the sport, lie, people want to grow their bank account. In order for the sport to grow you cannot have a group threatening anti competition, making neutral parties pick sides, and while many of us saw this and other things very little was being done about it.
The infighting in the US was carried overseas when people wanted replicate this there
So in SA there is an NRL Guy, and PRS Guy, the IPRF was the PRS leaning guy.
He maybe able to go to the NRL, but just like here I believe it was just like Coke vs Pepsi
Shannon will not let anyone associate with the NRL, so a range can’t split their loyalties which is part of the same but different discussions. Shannon has held Match Directors to certain unspoken, but well known rules. Those rules are used to combat competition, but they are really not very good for the sport.
This is partly why there is a divide, if you play with me, you can’t play with her. Meanwhile in the beginning every single person in this discussion played together everyone was friends. Then money got involved and business practices started to get cutthroat and bordering on illegal activity by trying to leverage popularity to beat the other person up with
When most of us spoke of this, we had not real proof, our word against theirs on why these things were fracturing in the community. Most of this is done by phone or in person, so no paper trail. This provided a paper trail
People want to grow the sport, lie, people want to grow their bank account. In order for the sport to grow you cannot have a group threatening anti competition, making neutral parties pick sides, and while many of us saw this and other things very little was being done about it.
The infighting in the US was carried overseas when people wanted replicate this there
That would make it a not for profit or a charitable trust.
A non-profit has to be organized to benefit a specific public group by law under US Tax Code 26 501(C)3. The membership must include a controlling board made up of at least three people.
Ah so the conflict is inclusive of competitive posturing and loyalities with the local IPRF reps as they relate to the local level in other countries as well as Shannon's bitchfest.
I'm not going to sit here and say the USPSA doesnt have similar problems. Most of you know there are internal disputes over there as well. Add to that the IDPA.
But it seems to me that the USPRA as a coordinating body that is a non-profit would reduce some of the infighting here in the US at the organizational level. Like you said, the PRS is going to do what it's going to do.
Right,
They dont want to co brand or partner they want a winner take all strategy
Basically the precision rifle world is suffering because the parties think they are shooting a match and not organizing a sport
They took the Match /Competition mentality of winner takes all, into the business of precision rifle shooting.
We all used to sit down to hash out matches, hell we used to fill in for the other guy when they couldn’t do it.
Now it’s winner take all, which is really just too soon. The market has not picked a winner, the market likes a little bit of each and not every thing from one. It‘s a competitive drive that has gone out of control and turned friends on each other over a few schillings
They dont want to co brand or partner they want a winner take all strategy
Basically the precision rifle world is suffering because the parties think they are shooting a match and not organizing a sport
They took the Match /Competition mentality of winner takes all, into the business of precision rifle shooting.
We all used to sit down to hash out matches, hell we used to fill in for the other guy when they couldn’t do it.
Now it’s winner take all, which is really just too soon. The market has not picked a winner, the market likes a little bit of each and not every thing from one. It‘s a competitive drive that has gone out of control and turned friends on each other over a few schillings
Speaking from the NRL US side of the house. The NRL US is not interested in taking on another project of this size and scope.
The ironic part about all this is the fact that people actually think you can make a good living off of shooting sports/firearms in general!! As they say...”don’t quit your day job.” As a very long list of those who have tried can attest...you are much more likely to go broke!! But what the heck... might as well try to break the mold.
LMAO! fastest way to become a Millionaire as a shooter is to start off a Billionaire
Well, here is where I have some knowledge. This is true for a (c)3, but most all social clubs, be it a shooting club, knitting club, garden club, or a dog club, are organized under (c)4, which are NFP, but not charitable, and can make all the money they want (but they do pay taxes on certain types of income). I do believe the NRA is such a club. I know my dog training and dog breed clubs are 501(c)4. Not for profit is only an IRS filing status. It has nothing to do with making a profit and all NFPs would quickly be out of business if their expenses always exceeded their revenues. There are about 7 different 501(c) structures and only 3 is charitable where you can take contributions and not pay taxes.
Frank, I've worked with a lot of NFP organizations and there are 2 common characteristics: First, when someone volunteers for a leadership position that doesn't pay a salary, they have an agenda or they wouldn't bother. The second is the 80/20 rule dominates every club. If you aren't familiar with 80/20, in every club 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. And the 80% never lift a finger but always complain about everything the 20% does and how they should do it better. You can apply the 80/20 rule to most everything: 20% of the members cause 80% of the problems, etc., etc. 80/20 makes it difficult to get anything accomplished because only 20% are getting stuff done while the other 80% are constantly dragging them down.
My suggestion is if you want to make this happen despite the above caveats, start grassroots by running your own matches with your own rules. If people have fun and believe in you, it will be a success and you'll grow. If a range isn't available to you for whatever reason, go to the next range. If it works, word will get out. The downside is that there is very little profit incentive in starting/growing a club/organization unless you grow revenue into the hundreds of thousands and you can start paying salaries. Very, very few organizations grow to this size. Why bust your butt if 80% of the people are going to complain about what you are doing, how you are doing it, and where you are doing it? Unless, unless you are just determined to make it happen. If you have this energy, my hat's off to you and I'll volunteer to help at your next match in the SE (AL, GA, or TN).
Or marriageSame thing with horses and race cars. Lol
Yes, 501(C)4, these are a category called social welfare organizations. They are required to be not for profit as well to be exempt. I always had a good chuckle that the NRA (but not ILA, a 527) was organized as one. Public unions are organized under this as well.
Personal opinion after reading 8 pages of comments.
The competition should be a secondary focus.
Build a community with resources for Clubs, MDs and shooters. I am talking education, mentorship and training.
Implement minimal standards. Any “series” can exist and flourish.
The world organization provides the “ultimate” goal for those who want to work towards it to accomplish.
The competition should be a secondary focus.
Build a community with resources for Clubs, MDs and shooters. I am talking education, mentorship and training.
Implement minimal standards. Any “series” can exist and flourish.
The world organization provides the “ultimate” goal for those who want to work towards it to accomplish.
I mean let’s be honest, that’s what the NRA and CMP used to do. CMP still, but not NRA.
Competition is not secondary as that is what lead to all this at all. People going and shooting matches. Shooting matches and having fun. Everyone was new at one point as no one came out of the womb shooting matches and whether they stay or not is up to them. You can't force people to join anything or stay a member but if they are enjoying it and having fun they will. First and foremost they need to have fun.
My point may have been lost in translation. I was not implying no competitions. I was referring to providing avenues to get into it and find information out. If you provide a club/MD the basics of how to get started (what you need, how to advertise, how to design a COF for various skill sets) you will have more people try to get into it. If you give shooters the ability to understand the sport and find someone to help them you will get more of them to show up. Some will stay, some will not. But the vast majority of people who show up are “recreational” shooters looking to have an enjoyable event while making now “friends” and hopefully getting better.
You can say the community is always there to help and teach. The statement only goes so far. It assumes the new person will ask or the club has a person willing to “help” them.
If true, then why not talk directly to shooters and facility owners? Just bypass the problem people?
Or is it too late for that approach?
It’s a bit late some are already in bed and people often fear change they fear nobody will show up
the silence from the other side just says they are mad(der) and will probably go after competition harder if I was to guess
but enough people want to work together where it will not work as well, if they continue down that path they’ll just create more competition vs solidifying the community by working together.
If it’s all about the business then let the market decide based on reality and not a skewed perspective because you control the narrative or bully people into thinking they have to do it your way.
the silence from the other side just says they are mad(der) and will probably go after competition harder if I was to guess
but enough people want to work together where it will not work as well, if they continue down that path they’ll just create more competition vs solidifying the community by working together.
If it’s all about the business then let the market decide based on reality and not a skewed perspective because you control the narrative or bully people into thinking they have to do it your way.
This post nailed it....... while I don't claim to be anybody in the sport I've been involved with running national level matches for both organizations..... one thing I've always thought that would add value is for the association to obtain a large insurance rider and make it available to MD's..... kind of use your revenue stream to provide a needed service to the MD so they can "grow the sport". It's one of the back office requirements and one of the reasons why I don't try to host matches anymore, sure I could and have bought my own rider but it's not cost effective for a one off match where it seems the perfect opportunity for an "association" to provide a benefit to members, economy of scale!
If either association thinks this is a good idea, we need more than a $2m/$1 liability policy.... the large ranch owners are not interested as that level is not worth the effort..... something in $8/$10m is more likely what it would take, definitely an opportunity for economy of scale.
Contact me if this gets any traction..... I've got some contacts where we could run some bad ass field COF's !!
Hi,
You got contacts that will lease me land to build/setup/operate a training facility at??
Minimum of 1 mile distance with 2 mile distance being optimal.
YES I will provide said insurance policy.
Sincerely,
Theis
This is a valid point! Insurance is a big deal and one that small local MDs have to wrestle with. Perhaps a tougher nut to crack for the small local venues that run many small matches a year than it is for the big major events that attract big entry fees and hundreds of shooters.
As soon as MD's understand they can run matches, 10 squads, 10 deep, without the "PRS" branding, Shannon's attitude and arrogance is immediately adjusted. [Most] shooters just want to shoot, and do so in a competitive environment with like minded guys. There is nothing proprietary that the PRS offers. It has no intellectual property. Blood, sweat, tears, yes, but no IP. Shannon knows this. Hence his fierce defense of the organization. Fight or flight response. This is psychology 101. He knows it can quickly and easily fall into jeopardy.
That being said, somewhere, somehow, all the talking heads and vested parties need to get on the same table and craft a template of what the organization looks like now, and what it wants to be, collectively, MDs, Shooters, range owners, organizers, et. all. And most importantly, with and without who that organization includes in its guiding principals. The activity of PRS can and will survive with or without Shannon. The people, shooters, MD's, RO's, Sponsors, etc are the IP. Collectively. Not owned by anyone. That's the only thing that makes it work at the end of the day. Call it [the organization] whatever you want.
Until that conversation happens, and until that structure is put in place, the organized 'sport', for whatever it is, will continue to flounder among the egos and swinging dick contests of 'my way or the highway'.
Go easy on me. I'm new to this prs scene but not new to business development. I'm just thinking out loud.
That being said, somewhere, somehow, all the talking heads and vested parties need to get on the same table and craft a template of what the organization looks like now, and what it wants to be, collectively, MDs, Shooters, range owners, organizers, et. all. And most importantly, with and without who that organization includes in its guiding principals. The activity of PRS can and will survive with or without Shannon. The people, shooters, MD's, RO's, Sponsors, etc are the IP. Collectively. Not owned by anyone. That's the only thing that makes it work at the end of the day. Call it [the organization] whatever you want.
Until that conversation happens, and until that structure is put in place, the organized 'sport', for whatever it is, will continue to flounder among the egos and swinging dick contests of 'my way or the highway'.
Go easy on me. I'm new to this prs scene but not new to business development. I'm just thinking out loud.
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Shit like this is what puts a sour taste in people's mouths, IMO.
I heard one major sponsor already walked away. Be interesting to see it become a trend.
When the gravy train derails people involved in this kinda bullshit suddenly become more willing to evolve and compromise.
Which one walked away?
Completely agree.
I caught the fringe of random conversations of the politics when I shot my first couple matches.
I regularly reminded myself: shoot, have fun, learn, rinse, repeat.
Exactly. And I also think to myself that it only matters if you wrap up your self-worth in your match placement, otherwise who gives a shit.
I got started in precision rifle this year with the personal goal of eventually shooting in PRS matches. After reading Shannon's awful email, I can tell you full stop that PRS isn't an organization that I want to be associated with.
Don't let the PRS as a company stop you from shooting matches. Act like they don't exist, go shoot some matches and have fun.
Forget "The PRS". Go find some local matches, grab your rifle and go shoot. You don't need Shannon / "The PRS" branding to shoot PR matches.
Seriously. Fvck all that other noise. Go shoot.
Thanks guys. Sounds like good advice.
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