Why we can't have nice things,

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TacticalDillhole

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    It’s coming, they just didn’t turn it on yet, it will be a similar style as they used the same software.

    I spoke with them for about 2 hours yesterday and the the cut to the chase answer is,

    I am throwing in the white towel, you all win.

    I don’t feel we agreed on a single question, I don’t see a single change happening, everything is grand, people are content, so who am I to question it... it was just a circular discussion. I really felt i was wasting everyone’s time and once that happens, its not worth it. Time is too short to waste on this anymore.

    If you send me complaint, I will not open it, just be deleted. You’re welcome to discuss them all you want on SH, but my advise would be something else. The interest is not there, they only see success, so who are we to complain.

    You all enjoy, I think I may just change the SHC to something I want to do, won’t be this year, it’s part of the RTC program as it’s been. I‘ll move the day to a time of a the year I can put more focus into it. Then just create the single event I might enjoy and forget the rest. Maybe make it invite only and not charge people or something silly, it can become a hangout, lol.

    I’m Out, PEACE Shooter‘s —> no wind.
    SHC in winter would be epic, especially if it’s in the same place as past few years
     
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    TacticalDillhole

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    I do like Carl’s location for the SHC, I think there is a lot of potential around those pieces of property

    not sure about winter per say, but Oct, November would be easier for me
    I know for me a June is difficult, in non COVID times, cause that the beginning of peak travel And for you because it’s peak training season. October is a no brainer. Make the cup part of the guardian series
     
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    lash

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    Really sorry to hear that there will be no change or improvements or even anyone paying attention to this issue. It is obvious that those heavily involved are satisfied with themselves and their efforts. The $$$ speak much louder than those that have offered input and alternatives. Those that would be heard are completely pigeonholed in their minds as non-shooters and bad apples. It’s easier if they think that way.
     
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    Aussieusa

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    As a not so new shooter, but not too many matches under my belt, after seeing behind the curtain reading the last 10 pages of comments, it has opened my eyes. I’ll just continue to support my club matches, obviously not PRS sanctioned.

    being an Aussie expat, the IPRF is something that is needed there. Their gun rights are being eroded every year, and this could give some legitimacy to any PRS-type of match.
     

    MarinePMI

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    As a not so new shooter, but not too many matches under my belt, after seeing behind the curtain reading the last 10 pages of comments, it has opened my eyes. I’ll just continue to support my club matches, obviously not PRS sanctioned.

    being an Aussie expat, the IPRF is something that is needed there. Their gun rights are being eroded every year, and this could give some legitimacy to any PRS-type of match.
    And that is my main reason for thinking the IPRF should exist. Secondarily, as a recognized International Sport, it paves the way for transporting legal firearms in and out of countries that have otherwise, very restrictive firearm laws.

    The more firearms are viewed as tools in a competitive sport, the more they gain normalcy in these other societies. And IMHO, that's a good thing.
     

    rangerroy

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    This is why we can't have nice things,

    I talked about a lot of inside ball over the years in regards to competitions. As noted many times, this is not new, not even the idea of a series. In the early 2000s there was a series attempt and it failed. Part of the problem is growth and being forward thinking enough to understand, nobody owns this game. The idea that one group is in charge of Precision Rifle Competition is silly on its face, and insulting when you understand the history.

    When the PRS started in 2012 it was on the heels of what Jacob and I were doing at Rifles Only. Sure there was other matches here and there. In a typical year back in 2004 you might have 4 two day matches. Each one of those matches might have 50 shooters. The rules, the format, everything was flexible it was just a group of like minded people enjoying a hobby. As the community grew, in part because of Sniper's Hide, it was where everyone hung before the FB Groups, we discussed, coordinated, debated, and argued about what we are doing.

    The joint Sniper's Hide / Rifles Only matches set the standard, but that standard needs to change. The idea you could build a series around this game is flawed. We have too many individuals with to big of personalities to manage a one size fits all approach. The conflicts of the past divided the shooter community into East & West, North & South, Affiliated and Nomad. It's time for a change.

    2020 was a mess, Countries shut down, everyone on hold, but we managed.

    We need to reflect as a group and have a big reset. The mindset and reasonings have changed, the equipment has evolved, the locations have grown and adapted into something nobody really likes. We all recognize the benefit of competition shooting, but we also have to acknowledge the damage it has caused on across the board. Nothing we do is set in stone, there is no Association that oversees what we do, no governing board that requires we vote to change directions. We are still grassroots despite the money we bring in, and put out. So changes are really easy, you just have to agree to consider them.

    I think the regions are the answer, we can't have a National Governing Body in the United States. It's too fractured, broke, and beyond repair. Besides who really owns this... nobody. Before going too far forward, my thoughts are create Regional groups of like minded people. Determine your own rules and standards, and then if you have to test your work, find other regions to compete against. The Nationals Stage is broken beyond repair, it will never serve the community as a whole when it designed to enrich only a select few.

    Recently on the Everyday Sniper Podcast I have been talking to people about this very thing. Creating Regional Divisions for people to compete under. Those regions are working together to cut out the National organizations because of the in-fighting taking place. It's a natural thing when the big stage no longer works for the individual they will just build a community one for the locals to enjoy. As I have noted many, many times, I have turned into the Complaint Department for the Competition Series. The Series wants to control the message so the competitors find other avenues to get the message out. I happen to be that sympathetic ear. This stated, I have some communication between Shannon and the PRS in response to the International Precision Rifle Federation.

    The response from the IPRF will make it clear the inside ball, it will answer those questions the first email might not. So read both:

    PRS Email First :




    So they reached out to the various groups to Invite the PRS to send a Team to Compete, that was the answer above and here is their response below



    We are doomed to failure if we continue down this path.

    I think we need a Summit here in the United States, one that sits all interested parties down for a minimum of 2 days. One that hammers out the objectives of this community. One that puts to rest the infighting and disorganization, if a group does not want to play ball with the rest, that group can be an Island alone. From here changes can be made to reset things in a positive direction. Plenty of smart people engage in this activity we have more than enough examples to pick and choose from in order to build a better mousetrap. The direction things are currently moving on the big stage are short for this world. We can grow the sport together, or we can work without certain individuals and operate around them in other ways. This is not something one person should claim to own. We are barely playing with .1% right now, growing it together would be huge.

    There is the individual good, and the greater good. Today it's a bunch of individuals claiming to be working for the greater good, we all know that is bullshit to include me. We fractured and broke years ago and have been playing games ever since. Time to fix it or forget it and move on to something better.
    Shows you the mindset. It's a shame, rather than promoting the sport/craft it turns into this.
     
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    lowlight

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    It’s a reflective- move on moment for me

    I get they are content, it’s often hard to look inside, I have to make a conscious effort to adjust a course like here.

    initially the Scout move looked like a way to leverage their reach to promote this sport alongside the mainstream sports. I was transparent in my actions saying it was a 3 contract and it didn’t work we’d reset.

    I followed though losing a size-able chunk of my money by leaving early and working the site instead. Even later I was offered a better position with the Maven but laughed at them.

    if they feel things are moving forward in a positive way, and aren’t looking for feedback in any direction, why keep pushing.

    hard to admit failure but it’s clear this a dead issue - time to move on down the road.
     

    Downtown

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    Well, hopefully the IPRF will continue on the path they have chosen, and just ignore a bunch of silly questions from anyone that sees them as competition. It wouldn't be the first time American competitors in a sport differed from the international version and the result is manageable.
     
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    whiskeytower

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    Well i am personally glad this thread was started and was able to see what kind of scumbags are really behind the curtain. I was getting pretty excited about some of the new ideas. Such a shame. But it does give me a clear eyed view where my money will be spent and who gets my support.
     

    lte82

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    Well i am personally glad this thread was started and was able to see what kind of scumbags are really behind the curtain. I was getting pretty excited about some of the new ideas. Such a shame. But it does give me a clear eyed view where my money will be spent and who gets my support.

    What’s your take on spending money with PRS sponsors who are dumping 6 figures worth of cash directly to the PRS and prizes to the shooters? I’m just curious if you are going to just boycott the matches and match directors that send scores to the PRS, or are you also going after all of the sponsors & supporters? This is America, we can’t have a middle ground, or can we?
     

    lash

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    I don’t advocate boycotting anybody involved. I believe that one should be the change that they wish to see in the world.
    (Not my saying, but one that is falsely attributed to Mahatma Gandhi.)
     

    M4guru

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    What’s your take on spending money with PRS sponsors who are dumping 6 figures worth of cash directly to the PRS and prizes to the shooters? I’m just curious if you are going to just boycott the matches and match directors that send scores to the PRS, or are you also going after all of the sponsors & supporters? This is America, we can’t have a middle ground, or can we?

    I just want to know how the official rifle doesn't use the official action, chassis, or barrel and the official ammo doesn't use the official projo, brass, or powder. I'm confused. I'm also confused why the Precision RIFLE Series has an official pistol smith.

    The title sponsor is Kahles but the official optic isn't?

    I'm not really confused, I know it is because some marketing person is dumb enough to write a check, but I still think it's fucking retarded.
     

    lowlight

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    No boycotts

    no games - just moving on down the road

    if you’re into it, enjoy 😊 if you’re not we’ll try to shine a light on options as they appear.

    like I noted Jim See is dropping his two day match prices to $150 and still giving cash prizes and t shirts 👕 despite the lower costs

    stuff like that
     
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    whiskeytower

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    @lte82 I don’t see why we would boycott companies just trying to sell products to customers. It’s of no fault of the companies Shannon’s an asshole.🤷‍♂️ But I would most certainly refrain from “sanctioned” match’s stacked around “outlaw” local matches and MD I like.
     
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    seansmd

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    I just want to know how the official rifle doesn't use the official action, chassis, or barrel and the official ammo doesn't use the official projo, brass, or powder. I'm confused. I'm also confused why the Precision RIFLE Series has an official pistol smith.

    The title sponsor is Kahles but the official optic isn't?

    I'm not really confused, I know it is because some marketing person is dumb enough to write a check, but I still think it's fucking retarded.
    What's the official browser sponsor of the PRS forum?
     

    Woody67

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    Woody here! STRONG ROOTS BRING NEW GROWTH TO ANYTHING. This is all finally getting to where I said it would head. Haven’t seen this sight are kept up when I walked away from it when Shawn owned the PRS. It’s on the same path 3 Gun Nation went down. How do I Know??? I was there in the beginNing.......on both of them getting growth exposer in 2016/17. PRS will die a long and slow death like 3gun Nation. Said it about 3GN 5 years before and it happen and it wasn’t held back when I said it, but wait for all the PRS Fan Boys...... I’ll explain. Find a 3GunNation Match now.
    Dave and I met Rich, Nate, and Rich’s wife in Vagas in 2015 about PRS matches. Unfortunately it was a Gem when Rich held the ownership.Just like 3GN. As things started growing as do all good STRUCTURED shooting sports.

    Many here will rant at me. Good it will give you something to do and want see it anyway. The attitude and the approach is all wrong. You take the local matches that Dave and I started. Know one on the East Coast turned 100 shooters for a so called local monthly match back then.....We did. we’ve seen the turn, the straight away and curves, is it 3/4 different ownerships now? Each time someone rolls out the same idea just throwing different money at it to succeed. Deep pockets, fancy website, big name board members, and oh yea sponsorships. All this shaping up for the PRS FB’s. .....unfortunately this series is doomed. Why? It’s not structured for the average Joe, you know the local /regional shooter that works hard everyday supporting their family while trying to enjoy and afford the hobby. That’s the ones you need to focus on. Big money, Big Sponsorships, come and go but there still is the Big Problem. It’s Structured to Make Money for someone not for the Hard working local shooter that doesn’t care about all this and just wants to compete. This thinking that one series of a shooting sport can control long range shooting on a nation level is possible but not without strong roots. Dave who is very well structured point these things out to the second ownership group......Just before the Big Board of Directors was formed. yippy, hippy we have a board!
    I know shortly after that things seem to change toward some wellness to have local MD’s giving input to The Big Board. Dave and I noticed the push back really early after Rich sold. It seem it wasn’t working to support the local core group of shooters, prize tables being unequal from match to match,etc. The biggest thing for us was we were limited on Space as most ranges on the far right of the country. So rules across the board was really pushing us as far as setup. Local shooters being driven to certain areas to compete because of the non-support and NO listening ear of the club series matches that had STRONG ROOTS and NEW GROWTH. I really do miss seeing everyone that supported the local club series matches early on but glad the Drama Boys Didn’t Like Dave and I. Paul can deal with the drama of the PRS and its Fan Club. Oh I didn’t even mentioned the shXXXy way they handled the cheating scandal........great direction and structure. PRS a Pile of Real Sxxt. Woody out.......
     
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    branson1369

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    Woody (as well as Frank) is spot on as we lived it at the matches held on Woodys range and family farm.

    I cannot count how many of the RO’s, plank members of the matches and shooters that drove hours to shoot the DMM, Outlaw and Sanctioned events have reached out to Woody, Roy and me opining about the old days saying let’s just shoot screw prize tables and “bowling” shirts

    i believe the Grass roots approach from Rifles Only and original PRS Rich had going was solid. The shooters/sport could gain a lot from a focus on the basic. On the current trajectory the drama is running off RO’s, MD’s and Range owners.

    Without Ranges and RO’s there are no matches Outlaw or Sanctioned so more focus on being appreciative to the Range Owner's/RO’s vs BS DRAMA would go along way for our long range rifle addiction.
     

    Rob01

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    Woody (as well as Frank) is spot on as we lived it at the matches held on Woodys range and family farm.

    I cannot count how many of the RO’s, plank members of the matches and shooters that drove hours to shoot the DMM, Outlaw and Sanctioned events have reached out to Woody, Roy and me opining about the old days saying let’s just shoot screw prize tables and “bowling” shirts

    i believe the Grass roots approach from Rifles Only and original PRS Rich had going was solid. The shooters/sport could gain a lot from a focus on the basic. On the current trajectory the drama is running off RO’s, MD’s and Range owners.

    Without Ranges and RO’s there are no matches Outlaw or Sanctioned so more focus on being appreciative to the Range Owner's/RO’s vs BS DRAMA would go along way for our long range rifle addiction.

    Do it! I used to drive down from CT to shoot those matches. Now I live in Fuquay and no matches :( Lets get back to some fun. Even some .22 matches as that would work great over there with the way that area is set up.
     

    Woody67

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    Oh the one other thing I forgot. They.....the PRS made rules for all Match Directors that running any match under the PRS series that MD had to cut all ties with any sponsorships they had and everything had to go through them. Interesting.......Sounds just like Pete and Chad in the beginning of 3GN.

    We appreciate all the support we have received over the last 3-4 years about hopefully hosting matches again. My ro’s and match support team were the best. It’s unfortunate that the PRS did not want to support Dave’s and my idea of running the ro’s under a different scoring group or even have a small prize table set aside for them at every National held PRS match. Without the land, and ro’s you have nothing. Their answer to the hard working ro........we will give them a free match fee in Kalamazo. So the match fee is free but they have to spend 1500.00 to get there. So now if you read this and you RO a PRS match instead of standing in the weather holding a timer for them just asked to get paid the match fee save the 1500.00 and buy bullets. Sounds fair to Woody.
     

    MarkCO

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    3Gun suffered along the same path and while new shooters are coming in, more are leaving than joining, especially shooting the majors. "No-one owns..." has been drowned out so many times in the competitive shooting world it is like we, as a group, are too blind to take it all in and understand it, learn from it and adapt as needed.

    Well said Frank!
     

    rangerroy

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    Woody (as well as Frank) is spot on as we lived it at the matches held on Woodys range and family farm.

    I cannot count how many of the RO’s, plank members of the matches and shooters that drove hours to shoot the DMM, Outlaw and Sanctioned events have reached out to Woody, Roy and me opining about the old days saying let’s just shoot screw prize tables and “bowling” shirts

    i believe the Grass roots approach from Rifles Only and original PRS Rich had going was solid. The shooters/sport could gain a lot from a focus on the basic. On the current trajectory the drama is running off RO’s, MD’s and Range owners.

    Without Ranges and RO’s there are no matches Outlaw or Sanctioned so more focus on being appreciative to the Range Owner's/RO’s vs BS DRAMA would go along way for our long range rifle addiction.
    As Dave and Woody said it, our ROs are the best!! Personally I miss seeing them and shooting with them as they pushed me to be a better shooter, but as stated the BS Drama mostly from the “bowling” shirt crew and infringement on MDs was too much.

    To the ROs that I haven’t been able to keep up with, miss you all. Would love to send rounds down range with ya anytime! Know that Dave, Woody and I think about you guys/gals every time we talk to one another.
     

    IronHorsePilot

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    The prize tables don/t have to go, just be spelled out better.

    I think the classification system the regional series up here are doing is the fix, you can debate the values but creating the class system like:

    A
    B
    C

    Classes can solve the prize table issue immediately, you put the prizes on the classification table so you only pick from your table, you can put good prizes on every table, not front load it.

    The classifications need to go off finish score that puts you in your proper bucket and just use a percentage based model for it. Percent of possible or winner

    The other posts talk about it, and it will solve many of the process issues and the computer should do most of the work

    It will never happen, but I still feel pretty strong about the Open and Limited Only then Classifications of each in the A, B, C zone, we are really too small to play with a bunch of different things, it would have longer legs keeping it simple. But this is probably too radical a change
    @lowlight ,

    I've shot all disciplines out there. USPS, IDPA, 3-Gun, and now PRS and am a MD at a range in MO in the MOST series. As many people have voiced, one of the things that has always frustrated me was the top shooters walking the prize table to just sell the product on the many sale pages the next day. While I understand shooting is an expensive hobby/sport, I have always felt it was disrespectful to the sponsors and their donations.

    Years ago, Ken Flood, was working for FN and did exactly what you suggested for the prize table at the Midwest 3-Gun Championship. He did a Lewis Class scoring system where it was divided into 4 flights. A,B,C,D flight. The matchwinner walked the prize table first. Say there were 200 shooters so shooter 51 walked second, 101 walked third, 151 walked 4th. Then back to the beginning to start the rotation in flights again. One of the things that has stuck in my mind through all the years that has passed is the shooter that walked 4th, shooter 151 is a local retired LEO that I run into often. He always sees me and says " Im the Midwest 3-Gun Champion! Of D flight!" Never in his wildest dreams did he think he would ever have a chance at walking the prize table 4th! You will never see that rifle on some sale page. He also went and told all his friends and guess who showed up at the next club matches. Him and his buddies.

    I know the prize table is just a drop in the bucket with the issues at hand. I just think the Lewis Scoring is a viable option since there is no way to sandbag your way into any position other than first!
     

    Swoodhouse19

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    PRS MD HERE. Just held a monthly PRS sanctioned event with a great shooter count and everyone treating the other great. I forgot a few important details on the COF and everyone rolled with it. Great Match.
    Most didn’t know about the drama in here or FB. I told them to wait for Netflix to catch all the seasons of this show.

    have a great week and stay safe.
     
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    AManWearingAHat

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    @lowlight ,

    I've shot all disciplines out there. USPS, IDPA, 3-Gun, and now PRS and am a MD at a range in MO in the MOST series. As many people have voiced, one of the things that has always frustrated me was the top shooters walking the prize table to just sell the product on the many sale pages the next day. While I understand shooting is an expensive hobby/sport, I have always felt it was disrespectful to the sponsors and their donations.

    Years ago, Ken Flood, was working for FN and did exactly what you suggested for the prize table at the Midwest 3-Gun Championship. He did a Lewis Class scoring system where it was divided into 4 flights. A,B,C,D flight. The matchwinner walked the prize table first. Say there were 200 shooters so shooter 51 walked second, 101 walked third, 151 walked 4th. Then back to the beginning to start the rotation in flights again. One of the things that has stuck in my mind through all the years that has passed is the shooter that walked 4th, shooter 151 is a local retired LEO that I run into often. He always sees me and says " Im the Midwest 3-Gun Champion! Of D flight!" Never in his wildest dreams did he think he would ever have a chance at walking the prize table 4th! You will never see that rifle on some sale page. He also went and told all his friends and guess who showed up at the next club matches. Him and his buddies.

    I know the prize table is just a drop in the bucket with the issues at hand. I just think the Lewis Scoring is a viable option since there is no way to sandbag your way into any position other than first!

    That story made me smile. The first time I did well enough to make an early trip to a prize table I was still a poor college student, I still have the Aimpoint I picked up and I will never sell it. That made my year.
     

    CV_Ag

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    I didn’t mind the removal of the bags. It was WAY more challenging but that was even across the board. And yes, not surprising coming from Jacob. It did suck that he threw the stage out after day 2 though. A “punishment” directed at a few people but “hurt” a lot of people that shot it as he intended.
     
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