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Man that is awesome great shooting period. Hit 2 miles to get to 4100 yards that is amazing. This sport has really pushed the limits. Takes some good equipment and skill to do that. I read threw people saying lucky and shoot enough bullets one will hit or the target was huge. I seen 72 inch at 4100 yards is still impressive in my books. With wind and spread in ammo still impressive. I get annoyed alittle when i hear people say lucky you shoot enough 1 bullet will hit haha ok i read on here the other day milk jug challenge the guy hit at 7th shot and hit gong 4 times how lucky was he, shooting so much and get 10 shots. This is a sport its growing what is the point if everyone grabs rifle and hits a target first shot at 5000 yards. As a community we should stick together instead of down playing peoples accomplishments. Once again amazing shooting
I find all of the "he got lucky" comments entertaining. If that's the case then that is one lucky SOB and I'm going to see if I can hire him to buy some lottery tickets for me.
Also, the 72" target looks and sounds freakin huge-- but at over 4100yrds it is really just a little over 1.5 MOA.
Maybe a few of the people bagging on this could do it (maybe....) but I'd be more inclined to think that they are full of shit. Just like I am when I tell people about my shooting ability at 3000 yrds-- Because I prefer to tell the time I hit the target on the 3rd shot. I conveniently leave out the time that I fired every round and never even spotted an impact (going both directions on wind trying to figure out what the hell was going on and then driving home pissed).
I wouldn't call it a world record... but it's not just lobbing rounds in hoping to get lucky.
Also, the 72" target looks and sounds freakin huge-- but at over 4100yrds it is really just a little over 1.5 MOA.
Maybe a few of the people bagging on this could do it (maybe....) but I'd be more inclined to think that they are full of shit. Just like I am when I tell people about my shooting ability at 3000 yrds-- Because I prefer to tell the time I hit the target on the 3rd shot. I conveniently leave out the time that I fired every round and never even spotted an impact (going both directions on wind trying to figure out what the hell was going on and then driving home pissed).
I wouldn't call it a world record... but it's not just lobbing rounds in hoping to get lucky.
It takes a mountain of experience and information to go from statistically a 0% hit probability to what I'm guessing is probably a single digit % hit probability. Even so, that's 9/10 misses. That's what I'm saying-- not detracting from the event at all. I just don't believe it's reliably repeatable.
On a 5 shot sample size, with very low confidence interval (big +/-error bars), you're at a 20% probability. It's speculation, but my guess is that 5 or 10 or 20 more shots isn't going to improve the empirical hit probability.
In my mind it's like taking a Mosin Nagant M44 carbine with surplus ammo and iron sights and shooting at a 2" disk at 200yd. It will require a fair amount of experience and knowledge for you to know how far away and in which direction the MPOI is from the POA, and you will eventually hit the bastard, but it's not a good representation of the capabilities of the system.
I don't think a 1.5 MOA target is unreasonable. For some historical perspective in 1898 a 1000 yard bullseye was 36" in diameter, today for F-class it is 5". Perhaps scoring rings are what is needed but it was an impressive feat if done in 5 rounds not lobbing 40+.
EDIT:
I will add that 9 out of 10 shots in the Bullseye was the record then. I don't think it is as applicable here but something akin to repeatability does need to be part of it. Even with Land speed racing you have what is called a "return run" to backup anything that is an official record.
EDIT:
I will add that 9 out of 10 shots in the Bullseye was the record then. I don't think it is as applicable here but something akin to repeatability does need to be part of it. Even with Land speed racing you have what is called a "return run" to backup anything that is an official record.
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Still lots of luck with that bullet and that caliber and that cartridge. No where optimum but he still got lucky enought to pull it off.
There are plenty of guns that came to that match that hold extreme spreads of less than 30fps. You’re in NE, not far. Next match is in 3 weeks. Come show us up
I've seen a couple of examples that can honestly say they're in the ~25-30fps range for ES. They're not common. It means a SD -- not a 5 or 10 shot SD.. like 35-50 shot SD-- of 5fps or better. Normal distribution, sample represents the population, 6 sigma, the whole 9 yards... A lot of 5 and 10 shot data sets hold up to it. Not many 30+ shot data sets do.
How many rounds in a match? What's ES over that sample size?
Again, not saying it's not possible, and an event like that is going to have higher % than normal of guys who have their shit together... but I'm also continually astounded at the low sample rate people in these sports use to qualify (to themselves) equipment...
At any rate, I'll probably make it down to Spearpoint one of these days. Don't take my posts as me thinking I can do it any better than anyone else, though. The reason I don't really pursue the ELR game with any more urgency is because I've tested the waters, have a fair amount of internal ballistics experience, a lot of "stretching the range limitations" experience, and see the same problems pop up without a way to reliably overcome them.
Ever try pushing a .30 cal subsonic past 500yd reliably? Same things happen as when you push a 30 cal magnum past 2000... It's a dead dumb projectile and the parameters at the launch are what they are. The in-flight variables don't get any better with longer flight times.
You need bigger, faster, higher bc. With super low sd's and super accurate. And great transition to solve those problems.
Looking at milk jug guy’s fundamentals, he was extremely lucky.
So multiply the F-Class bullseye by 4.4 for this shot. It won’t be 72”, and it isn’t 1898 anymore.
There’s so much dwell time on these large, slow accelerating projectiles in the huge long barrels that they’re fired from, these guys fundamentals would need to be perfect for consistent groups, and from what I’ve watched, they really aren’t anything close. As long as they’re having fun I guess, but they could be having more fun hitting smaller targets more consistently by learning to shoot better.
Match was a total of 42 rounds of all targets were shot. Last year when I ran the magnetospeed on my 338 of a match I had an extreme spread for the match of 18fps. And that wasn’t my most consistent gun. I’d guess my 375 is less than that. It never had an sd of more than 4 in testing so I never needed to run it with the chrono.
Also, there’s literally dozens of documented cases where vertical spreads at POI are less than the ES in muzzle velocity would have you believe mathematically.
Hi,
You forgot to add my name to that comment/opinion!!
I was just as rude and out of line as he was and am making that public apology right now. I will handle things cleaner and more professional when it comes to Alex and ELR in general.
There is enough movement within the ELR realm for shooters and match directors to have a "great reset" in regards to the bigger targets just to say further distances.
There is enough movement within the ELR realm that wants to see better than 50% impacts 5 for 5 at 1 mile then 2k yards then 2500 yards on 1MOA targets instead of just "How far can we go" and "How big do we make the target".
There will be those that have issues with that mentality just as there are those with issues with the "I done this far" mentality but at the end of the day ELR should be about repeatability, consistency and reliability...not a 10% statistical chance.
The statistical chance method IMO is not growing the sport of ELR but rather promoting a distance that for all practical purposes is undoable with ANY repeatability, consistency, and reliability.
The reality is; barring 200k - 1 million+ dollars of specific support equipment that the Gov ELR/HTI Teams have; there is no way ELR competitions as they stand right now will ever be repeatable, consistent or reliable in terms on hit percentages past 1 mile.
Because the reality is you can be the best wind guesser on the planet from your kestrels at firing position to wind flags every 10 yards to kestrel at target and guess what..................You "calculated" absolutely 1 wind segment information where the bullet actually flies at...just 1 and that is nowhere near the proper information to "calculate" the firing solution for anything repeatable!!
Because the reality is that if a 1 mph wind can put you OFF the reasonable/practical size target then the "industry" nor the shooters are ready for that distance without playing 10% statistical chance game.
Because the reality of promoting a distance that is as mentioned for all practical purposes undoable with ANY repeatability, consistency and reliability is hurting the ELR world as much as it is helping it. People are dropping 10k on systems to achieve a fake capabilities in regards to distances because if you drop that target size back down to realistic (1MOA) those distances are not being done due to several factors.
Ask ourselves...which is more realistic of a proficient ELR system and shooter.....
1 impact at target this size at 5000m
OR
5 for 5 on any given day at 2000m with target of 1MOA
Edited for grammar.
More to come....
Sincerely,
Theis
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How do people have time and money to waste on all of this but can't understand the most basic statistics? Ledzep hit it early on.
I make a gun that nobody uses! I helped develop a cartridge that was obsolete at inception! I own part of a ballistic solver that nobody uses! Behold my works ye mighty and... Yawn...
-Alex
Hi,
LOLOLOL
1. Indeed it would be hard for anyone other than the testers to use when it doesn't get released to public until May.
2. Clueless....will just leave it at that.
3. Ummm...check with Eduardo, lolol...he uses it.
Next....
Sincerely,
Theis
I vastly prefer to settle discussions with rationale and facts. Thesis seems immune to such things and the number of times he has responded to peoples achievements or legitimate questions with degradation means the "cunt" shoe simply fits. He has been mentioned to me specifically as the reason a number of people in the match directing side of things and the manufacturing side of things simply don't come here. There are trolls on most forums, he is this ones worst offender. There is no point in tolerating such people, it only encourages them to behave worse so they can get a reaction out of someone. That is his purpose here. It isn't sharing information or intelligent discussion. He spends all his time here because he is a looser with nothing better to do than rile people up all day.
-Alex
It’s Theis, and if you don’t think sharing information is in his nature, you haven’t seen the Hoplite thread. Also, you’re an idiot.
I would be excited to hit a target at that range, luck or no luck! That is still really cool, just saying. I shot less than half that at Spearpoint (2k yards) and struggled with the wind, luck or no luck I was excited to learn the challenges with shooting that far.
Just my .02
Very Respectfully,
Just my .02
Very Respectfully,
I thought i seen in the early posts it was 300 norma 245 berger. Thank you for correcting that i should of looked better. Still impressive i think
That scoresheet was from another shooter that posted the course of fire for the match. His rifle was the 300 Norma.
Yeah I seen that after you mention that I thought I was going crazy LOL
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
He posted on Twitter that it was an ND that hit the target. He had his finger on the trigger and when the director yelled FIRE! it scared him and it went off.
Did anyone bother to grab a case of beer and some hotdogs?
really? Hahaha
I agree 72” I was surprised to see that, I know the other event in the area ran 36” squares out to 1800, 42” squares to 3000 and 48” squares out to the 4000+ yard stuff for the most part.
You folks still did great with all the winds and under the clock.
Oneshot.onehit
I’m seeing a bit of a disconnect between the knowledge and equipment in the
‘civilian retail’ world, and some systems currently in use by Mil and agency
contractors. Wind lidar updating fire solutions in real time is a great asset to
those who are ‘on the job’, but do we want to see this tech in sporting comps?
It seems many people didn’t like AB using extra toys at KO2M, so that got
banned?
How does a 90% hit rate at a mile sound? I need to stay In my lane regarding
NDA’s, but this is what’s possible with all the toys. I don’t use any of the high
speed toys in my recreational shooting, just RF, wind meter, solver and whatever
skillI I have on the day. I get a lot more satisfaction making a successful shot with
the same basic equipment that most of us use, even if the hit % is far lower.
‘civilian retail’ world, and some systems currently in use by Mil and agency
contractors. Wind lidar updating fire solutions in real time is a great asset to
those who are ‘on the job’, but do we want to see this tech in sporting comps?
It seems many people didn’t like AB using extra toys at KO2M, so that got
banned?
How does a 90% hit rate at a mile sound? I need to stay In my lane regarding
NDA’s, but this is what’s possible with all the toys. I don’t use any of the high
speed toys in my recreational shooting, just RF, wind meter, solver and whatever
skillI I have on the day. I get a lot more satisfaction making a successful shot with
the same basic equipment that most of us use, even if the hit % is far lower.
That is commonly referred to as positive compensation which if used properly actual vertical dispersion is well inside of the calculated dispersion which assumes the same lunch angle on most ballistic programs.
Tim in Tx
I agree to a point but to velocity spreads the military can not still hold level velocities through the life of the barrel and mainly throat ersosion, and they are claiming as high as 60 fps ES ,so some mechanisms need to be put in place to insure it will effect the vertical poi change minimally. In target shooting it has been used for many years but the military has no clue it is there.
Tim in Tx
I could eat.
I was going to keep my mouth shut,but with the pissing contest going in this thread,i have to confess that he really used one of this.
Ok Y'all happy now.
Edited..great shooting
Ok Y'all happy now.
Edited..great shooting
He hit milk jugs at 2 miles too and the previous target at 2203 and previous was 1943 with five out of five hits as well and had hits on every target before that from 1500 so that is a lot of milk jugs in a row. Super mega ultra lucky right?
Tim in Tx
He didn’t hit a milk jug at 2 miles.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
He hit a milk jug at 1500 yards on his 7th shot with a Bergara HMR in 308. LRSU doesn’t have anything close to 2 miles.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
They are the same groups. Who shot first?
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
I don't know why we just don't shoot at kites with measured and marked string. Add weights along the length as your spotter.
EDIT: dumb idea. It would mean shooting in the wind. Never mind.
EDIT: dumb idea. It would mean shooting in the wind. Never mind.
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