Yea buddy! I am shooting the 153s out of my CM now around 2650 but need more ass. A nice big dose of RL26 should get them over 3K in the PRC/SS.
The other thing you could do instead of trying to unsuccessfully game the cartridge, class, caliber or categories of PRS shooting is to build the rifle you want and go shoot it.
Shoot to develop and hone your skill, and who knows, you may have a little fun, and suck a little less at life.
Shoot to develop and hone your skill, and who knows, you may have a little fun, and suck a little less at life.
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Well, not everything is about you sweetheart..........
Well 223 and 308 barrels last a long time. So if you are poor you can shoot in a division that you won't need a barrel for a long time. Not completely it but there's 1 reason... mil amd le are the other.its a stupid naming of the division. Instead of tac it should be called 223/308 class... then no one would complain
I'm planning on using my 25SAUM for NRL hunter. I finally got the rifle finished and came in at 15.5lbs.25 creed master race will be along shortly
Coming in 32nd and “winning” tac isn’t winning a match. Just shoot open and wory about your overall placement.
I've only competed in 3 F Class matches. I shot a .308 Winchester rifle and it was a bit of work to hit 189/200.
I purchased a Ruger Precision Rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. With factory loads, it will shoot circles around my .308 Winchester.
Classes are established for a reason. I go to matches to get in trigger time, not stroke my ego. I can learn from the guys who clean my clock at 1,000 yard matches. That is why I compete, to learn from those who are accomplished shooters.
I'll add one more comment, then step off my soapbox. If you are tired of being beaten by better shooters, do more pushups and get in more hard trigger time. You can't beat Mike Tyson by whining about not being allowed to fight in a different weight class.
Disclaimer - This post was edited and all profanity removed. to avoid offending anyone. Marines won't give a shit.
I purchased a Ruger Precision Rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. With factory loads, it will shoot circles around my .308 Winchester.
Classes are established for a reason. I go to matches to get in trigger time, not stroke my ego. I can learn from the guys who clean my clock at 1,000 yard matches. That is why I compete, to learn from those who are accomplished shooters.
I'll add one more comment, then step off my soapbox. If you are tired of being beaten by better shooters, do more pushups and get in more hard trigger time. You can't beat Mike Tyson by whining about not being allowed to fight in a different weight class.
Disclaimer - This post was edited and all profanity removed. to avoid offending anyone. Marines won't give a shit.
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I like 223rem. I shoot 223rem. It shoots good. I see trace. I shoot in the SE.
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The real answer is:
Normal PRS/NRL matches just aren’t for you.
You have two options:
Travel to matches more suitable
Start your own matches
Normal PRS/NRL matches just aren’t for you.
You have two options:
Travel to matches more suitable
Start your own matches
Just chop your balls off and shoot Lady Division. Some MD's may just let you get away with a Dress, but that doesn't really show commitment.
Most matches you will win by default. Just don't sign up for any matches that girls 17 and under register for.
Most matches you will win by default. Just don't sign up for any matches that girls 17 and under register for.
Thinks barrels are the expensive part of this sport......L O L
That's your opinion. And only you care about your opinion.
Shot NRA Long Range for years. I realized that if you wanted to compete at the national level you had to be as competitive with your Palma rifle (.308 iron sights) as you were with your any/open rifles. So we started a 1000 yard practice Monday evenings at our local club Oak Ridge Sportsman Association.
So every Monday evening during the daylight savings time months there I was slinging Sierra 155's downrange. Practice pays off, put in the time and effort, better results on match day are to be had. Also shooting a .308 at distance you need Standard Deviations in the single digits. One 60 round test I did, 10 shots over 6 different evenings my evaluation for all 60 was 5"-3/4" When you can get that kind of performance you just have to worry about breaking good shots and wind calls. Good luck
So every Monday evening during the daylight savings time months there I was slinging Sierra 155's downrange. Practice pays off, put in the time and effort, better results on match day are to be had. Also shooting a .308 at distance you need Standard Deviations in the single digits. One 60 round test I did, 10 shots over 6 different evenings my evaluation for all 60 was 5"-3/4" When you can get that kind of performance you just have to worry about breaking good shots and wind calls. Good luck
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Thank you for saying this. IMO, this is what justifies Tac class.
The 308 generates enough recoil that it still necessitates good fundamentals even with a 25lb rifle with an effective brake. And no matter how optimized your 308/223 gamer match rig is, the kid with a factory Howa might make a better wind call and that’s enough to win sometimes.
Time for an opinion on repeat,
There needs to be only two divisions, then those divisions should have classifications based on finish, A, B, C...
The Two Divisions should be Open and Limited, and the only rules in Open is a Total rifle weight (24LBS), then in limited you have weight(20LBS), barrel length (26") and factory ammo, nothing else matters.
No dollar amounts, no subjective rulings on who or what is a production gun, no caliber bullshit, just factory ammo vs handholds and then weight. you can walk in off the street, you can build something up, you can build something up to shoot factory ammo, you open the door for better factory offerings because you are supporting competition (7mm I see you)
Open, Limited, done...
There needs to be only two divisions, then those divisions should have classifications based on finish, A, B, C...
The Two Divisions should be Open and Limited, and the only rules in Open is a Total rifle weight (24LBS), then in limited you have weight(20LBS), barrel length (26") and factory ammo, nothing else matters.
No dollar amounts, no subjective rulings on who or what is a production gun, no caliber bullshit, just factory ammo vs handholds and then weight. you can walk in off the street, you can build something up, you can build something up to shoot factory ammo, you open the door for better factory offerings because you are supporting competition (7mm I see you)
Open, Limited, done...
Solids change everything. Significant advantage. You can get a .223 to perform almost like a Dasher and can get a .308 to perform like a 6.5CM.
Again, only people shooting TAC should be those training with work rigs. Everyone else is just trying to win a participation trophy. Same reason people shoot prod.
Again your personal opinion but you are wrong why people shoot Tac. I know for me it’s because I have shot .308 for 30 years and like shooting it in matches as I did before the PRS was a wet dream. I like the challenge and fun of it as I know many others do. Nothing about participation trophies so don’t throw your own opinion on to other people’s reasonings and assume you know. You don’t.
I also built a match .223 this past year just for the fun of it also. Just got the barrel and the bolt face for my TL3. I load it single stage but fun to send the little 75s out there. Good challenge also and a lot of fun.
Then go shoot FT-R or Palma or one of the disciplines where that is what everyone else is shooting. That's how competition works.
Like you I shot .308 for a long time, but its time has passed.
How many people shoot Tactical at a large NRL/PRS match? Maybe 5? In our local matches most are local SWAT guys getting in some training. They don't have a choice what caliber to run, so it makes sense for them to compete within the limitations they are forced to use. Its training, not a round a golf with the boys like this is for many.
Would someone buy a set of golf clubs that only lets them hit the ball 70% as far as a challenge? You know golf is such an easy hobby with modern tech, got to keep it interesting.
With modern solids now TAC is just another gear race like production has become. You will spend just as much if not more than an open shooter to try and win a participation trophy. Its not impressive and people still look down on you the same as a prod shooter.
What is the point of purposely handicapping yourself? Are people able to say "Well i only shot 50% but since i used antiquated tech i actually feel good"?
Is shooting Open not a challenge for you? Were you winning every national match you shot and were so good, you needed to handicap yourself to keep it fun?
Until people start cleaning matches , then its still a challenge and there are things to work on. If you are a competitor, it makes no sense.
I am just saying what the vast majority of competitors are thinking.
You derive self-worth from your caliber and finishing position at a match?
Good thing this is a free country and I don't have to do what YOU think is right. FTR is boring as hell for me and I like shooting "PRS" style matches as I have for almost 20 years. It's the sport I like so sorry if it doesn't fit your way of thinking but I will continue to do so. I will shoot whatever division I want. Sorry if that keeps you up at night worrying. LOL Some years I shoot one day matches in Tac and two day matches in open. Maybe throw in a Tac to mix it up. It's fun to mix it up and fun is what this sport is supposed to be as it is our golf. This sport is nothing about real life.
And it's not about "winning" every match. Only one person can do that at every match and the bottom half of the field guys who knows they aren't going to be near the top should just stay home then according to you? Not everyone is out to get their own self esteem and personal worth from how they do at a rifle match. If you need that explained to you then you have bigger issues. LOL Challenges come in many packages but now every time I shoot Tac I will smile knowing it pisses you off so much. LOL
I can shit my pants too, doesn't mean I should or shouldn't expect people not to laugh at me when it happens. You are free to shoot whatever you want and we are free to laugh about it.
Doesn't piss me off at all, Its just ironic the same excuses always come up.
Again , just saying what many are thinking.
Doesn't piss me off at all, Its just ironic the same excuses always come up.
Again , just saying what many are thinking.
Actually saying what you are thinking. You by no means speak for a vast majority of shooters. I know there are people that shoot Tac and Production for trophies but they are a vast minority to people who like shooting their rifles they own or are starting in the sport. If a guy is over 55 should they lie about their age to not get something for top senior too?
Also if you think shitting your pants and shooting matches with a rifle you like to have fun are the same thing then again maybe there are bigger issues. LOL And what are "excuses" to some are actual reasons to others.
Where does it say that? You are not making any sense and just pulling words our of your ass.
Competition is how you get better. Not living in your own little bubble. Virtually every high performing organization and development program on the planet is based around competition. Must be a coincidence. Or, maybe that is the most efficient way for people to improve.
If you don't want to compete, and plan to suck from the beginning, you can do that in open too. People need to stop pretending they are not competitive and just want to have fun while trying to shoot in a massively under competed class for the exact reason they claim they aren't. You can't have both, at least be honest with yourself.
"I am not here to compete and I know I have no chance at winning, so I will shoot in a division with 3 other similar minded people where I have a chance to win"
L O L
Age is a legitimate class/handicap. Same as Kids. Women is debatable, I would argue women are capable of being better shooters than men but that is a whole different discussion.
More than that, Its good to have those divisions to attract people from non traditional demographics and get them hooked. We aren't limiting their equipment, they shoot the same guns as everyone else because thats how you get better, not shooting some water downed shit. If a grown ass man needs to shoot in a special division because he can't/won't compete against the majority of shooters, that says more about him then everyone else that is laughing at him.
Most of the competitors I shoot with be it top pack, mid pack or even rear pack, when the subject comes up have similar thoughts. People in this sport are incredibly nice and respectful. Maybe they won't say it you your face. Its like telling a dude he stinks or has bad breath. The guy may not even realize it and unfortunately most will be polite and not say a word. But don't assume most aren't thinking it, especailly if the shooter is seasoned and not some kid or newbie who doesn't know better.
But hey, dudes get their dicks chopped off and beat the shit out of women in MMA nowadays so its a new world we live in.
Bet you have fun too right? See he gets it.
This is part of the problem, trying too manage people's motivations
The more refined and detailed a division is, the harder to fit people into it. You need it to be open for ease, but different enough to balance the field.
A guy walking off the street with a Sub $1000 rifle shooting factory ammo will never enjoy themselves under the current rules. Then once they realize the production division is a $5k entry fee, they will never come back.
The Tactical / 308/ 223 division is stupid to because you can show up with an OPEN 308, and compete. If you want to honor the working rifles out there, just have a classification within the division of Limited.
Working rifles use factory ammo, that means limited, at which point you can have a Veteran / Military or LE sub Classification
For sub divisions you want to use classifications more than divisions
The more refined and detailed a division is, the harder to fit people into it. You need it to be open for ease, but different enough to balance the field.
A guy walking off the street with a Sub $1000 rifle shooting factory ammo will never enjoy themselves under the current rules. Then once they realize the production division is a $5k entry fee, they will never come back.
The Tactical / 308/ 223 division is stupid to because you can show up with an OPEN 308, and compete. If you want to honor the working rifles out there, just have a classification within the division of Limited.
Working rifles use factory ammo, that means limited, at which point you can have a Veteran / Military or LE sub Classification
For sub divisions you want to use classifications more than divisions
It also solves the Prize Table dilemma,
You have 3 + tables, A, B, C, and you can balance each table prize wise, so A never takes from C and, C can have just as nice of prizes as A table does.
Then if you want, you can have a special table, Military / Veteran / LE or even RO, and/or Staff, then everyone works within their own sphere or influence and you have nothing to say because you were never gonna take from that table to begin with
You have 3 + tables, A, B, C, and you can balance each table prize wise, so A never takes from C and, C can have just as nice of prizes as A table does.
Then if you want, you can have a special table, Military / Veteran / LE or even RO, and/or Staff, then everyone works within their own sphere or influence and you have nothing to say because you were never gonna take from that table to begin with
That's one of the reasons I like the idea of prize tables being randomly raffled out with new shooters, Kids and RO's maybe given 2 chances for every competitor. Trophies and cash to those who place.
The prize table is for everyone equally. Pride, Trophies and some Cash is for those who win. Everybody benefits and since this sport lives and dies by the marginal shooters, it gives them another reason to come back and shoot more.
Higher chance some guy who needs a peice of gear gets it over some dude who will just throw it on Ebay or the exchange to try to make some money. That kid or new guy who got that awesome piece of gear will remember it and probably be more willing to support that vendor as a way to give back. The guy or gal who gave up their weekend or decide to forgo shooting is also rewarded for giving back to the sport.
At the end of the day, everyone's goal should be to grow this sport and get as many new people not only to try it, but to keep them engaged and coming back. We need them more then they need us.
The prize table is for everyone equally. Pride, Trophies and some Cash is for those who win. Everybody benefits and since this sport lives and dies by the marginal shooters, it gives them another reason to come back and shoot more.
Higher chance some guy who needs a peice of gear gets it over some dude who will just throw it on Ebay or the exchange to try to make some money. That kid or new guy who got that awesome piece of gear will remember it and probably be more willing to support that vendor as a way to give back. The guy or gal who gave up their weekend or decide to forgo shooting is also rewarded for giving back to the sport.
At the end of the day, everyone's goal should be to grow this sport and get as many new people not only to try it, but to keep them engaged and coming back. We need them more then they need us.
This is exactly fvcking right.
I shot 4 or 5 matches before I even paid attention to or asked what the fvck the divisions meant or what/where I was in them. I had a rifle, I wanted to shoot. Divisions didn't dictate me building a skill, having fun, and turning money into music.
And I still don't care. I couldn't give two shits where I finish or in what class.
I show up to a match with my rifle and shoot. I learn something every match, about me, my gun, my skill set, my ammo, dope, others, etc.
After the match, I walk a beer and a cigar around and chat up with some buddies and bullshit for an hour or so.
2 or 3 weeks later, rinse, repeat.
No drama.
It continues to blow my mind how people wrap themselves around the axel on this.
The prize table is a big pain in the dick. Agreed.
My son who tags along with me and shoots as well came up with this idea after seeing how bullshit the table is.
Granted, he's 14, so cut him a little slack, but it made for good conversation.
He chimed in with: "Hey Pop, they should make it so you walk not by individual score but by squad score for prizes (random squadding obviously), and the person who needs the gear in the squad gets whatever they walk the table for. Oh, and the jersey boys get nothing. Screw them. They can shoot for points."
It made for good conversation on the trip home.
I don't know what the solution is, but was a fun conversation walking different ideas around.
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One of the many great things about the Guardian matches is they do the prize table at random draw instead of my placement.
No I don't think that. But for some people it makes a huge difference.
I think you missed my point (s). Maybe I didn't make them clear. Either way this debate is dumb.
On a cold snowy windy day a 140 gn. Berger hybrid out of a 6.5 creedmore vs. a 6mm cartridge at say 800 plus yards. In my experience the 6.5 will be an advantage. IMO Practice is what makes the difference. Even dry fire practice.
Im glad you know what the vast majority of competitors are thinking. Oh wait you dont. again its YOUR opinion and no one cares. Literally. Not a single person cares what div you shoot. Youve been a member for a month and already know everything? There are a lot of members here who are legit shooters here who want to learn and help others...and there are a lot of members here who like to hear themselves talk...
Your 30+ posts saying its laughable is evidence it does bother you. I really dont understand it...
As to the same excuses...please man its obviously bothering you. I have shot tac a ton. I hear tons of different reasons (excuses...?) for doing so. Some like Rob's who loves old school shit. Some like the ease of grabbing some factory ammo and blasting. Some like a challenge of holding 2x as much wind. Some thats the only rifle they own.
Some, like me, want to hone their wind calling ability because it really matters. You cant just call left edge and send it.
Some, like me, want be the first to win a PRS match using a 308. Ive done everything else. This is just good fun. Like the article above, I have a top5 at a prs match with my 308. A 4th place shooting factory 155 gr ammo in WA where the wind is nvr fiendly...
Some, like me, want to grab some factory ammo cause I hate reloading.
There is ALWAYS less woman at a match then Tac and it doesnt bother you that they get a trophy? Get some consistency...
And again I call BS, every person I shoot with or have shot with have said it to my face. Thats why I love these spots as we are brutally honest. Each and every one hates getting beat by my 308 lolol. hashtagfacts.
The point is dont put YOUR opinion on us shooters who do it for fun. We are very competitive and love shooting. Say we arnt competitors because we handicap ourselves shows an insurmountable amount of ignorance on your part.
Regards
DT - 2018 PRS Tac Champion
Hopefully you explained to him that “Jersey boys(girls)” are just shooters and still dump a lot of their own money into going to matches. Saying “screw them” is a poor way for him to be looking at anyone in the sport or learning about the sport.
I usually place well shooting open, but plan on shooting half the matches Tac for the reasons in the @D_TROS post.
It will force me to become a better shooter. Yeah I’ll lose a few positions at the end of the season …. Don’t care.
It will force me to become a better shooter. Yeah I’ll lose a few positions at the end of the season …. Don’t care.
Women don't need their own division for competitive reasons. They can and do beat men, same with young guns like Zane and Millard. We have those divisions to get them out shooting so its more inviting. Most kids who don't dry fire 2+ hours a day don't tend to place as well.
Grown Men who can't win trying to be the best at something no one respects. Its hilarious.
Why not just shoot a .308 in open? All these excuses why it is fun and challenging, so why not shoot open?
Na you want to cut your balls off and people to think its impressive when you beat up a female. Sorry Brotha (Or Sista) we will continue to laugh at you.
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Barrels are actually one of the “expensive” items.
2500 rounds is a fair average between most 6mm (obviously there’s arguments for more and less round count depending on the cartridge and speed).
$700 is about average ($350 for blank and $350 for chambering).
That’s $0.28 per shot. Which is only eclipsed by bullet prices.
If you shoot any decent amount of rounds per year, bullets and barrels are the expensive part. Everything else is a one time expense and if you buy quality equipment, it usually retains a significant amount of resale value. Even at 50% resale, it’s vastly cheaper than bullets and barrels in the long run.
2500 rounds is a fair average between most 6mm (obviously there’s arguments for more and less round count depending on the cartridge and speed).
$700 is about average ($350 for blank and $350 for chambering).
That’s $0.28 per shot. Which is only eclipsed by bullet prices.
If you shoot any decent amount of rounds per year, bullets and barrels are the expensive part. Everything else is a one time expense and if you buy quality equipment, it usually retains a significant amount of resale value. Even at 50% resale, it’s vastly cheaper than bullets and barrels in the long run.
Yes, of course. His initial viewpoint was guys that are getting into competitive PRS style shooting could really use the gear, whereas a jersey shooter has been at it for a few years, learned the ropes, far more equipped, etc. (most time, not always). Obviously the economics of the sport are a bit of a mystery to him, but it made for good conversation and various scenario to think through. (ok, what happens if / when / what's fair if / etc. type discussion). He's also watched me cut my teeth the first few matches I shot, zeroed several stages, shot a 15% match or finish with a dismal shot vs. hit rate percentage, etc. I'm nowhere near a top shooter, but always enjoy most every match, even when I get my teeth kicked in. To the point on the OP, generally speaking I stay far away from the points / class / division game. I just don't care. I just want to shoot.
I spend more in gas , match fees, ect than my pro-rated barrel cost.
$675 for Bartlien prefit . 1 day match is about 90 rounds plus 20 or 30 to confirm zero, confirm dope, ect... so 120 rounds.
I estimate about 2500 for what I am shooting so that is 120/2500 or about 5% of barrel cost so about $35. Match is $50, Gas is probably closer to $60-80 since I have to drive 3 hours each way. Bullets are . 40-55 per shot and powder is about .26 per shot and primers are about .10. Brass is about .10 per shot assuming you don't lose a ton and get at least 11 or 12 firings out of them which is not hard to do with Lapua or Alpha.
Even after barrel is "shot out" can still be used for practice so it has some residual value. Could set it back if you really wanted.
So overall the barrel is not really a factor in cost decisions IMO.
People who claim they shoot X barrel because it gives a small improvement to barrel life really don't understand the difference in costs. Even if someone was shooting a .308, their bullets are more expensive, they use more powder,ect...which will eclipse any "cost savings" vs shooting a BR class 6mm.
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If you’re only shooting matches, yes. And one day matches increase the gas prices if you have to travel as you don’t get an extra day of shooting before spending more gas.
If you shoot 5-15,000 rounds a year between matches, practice, training, etc etc…..it changes the dynamic.
