“Precision” AR accuracy expectations?

theLBC

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I'm glad I saw this thread.

I bought my first AR-15 a while back. I'm not a huge AR-15 fan, but I wanted one for the experience. I bought a Core Rifle Systems M-Lok Scout in .223.

The trigger was not exactly a Timney, so I stuck a LaRue in it. Not a match trigger, but more pleasant than mil-spec.

I had seen Internet people shooting this gun well. I picked up a bunch of Australian Outback 55-grain Sierra Blitzking ammo, and I shot prone at 100 yards. The target I am posting shows what happened. I quit and went back inside, wondering what was going on. I thought maybe the scope had come loose. The first 5 shots went into the bottom-left target, and they were pretty clearly sub-MOA. Then I shot another group, and the rounds went all over the place.

It sure looks like the gun can shoot, and I have no problem shooting sub-MOA with my RPR, so I don't think I'm hopeless, but obviously, something is amiss.

What on earth can I be doing wrong to shoot two groups this different?

I was not expecting insane accuracy, but this is horrible.

View attachment 7513938
you didn't tighten scope and barrel and shoot another group?
 

Formosan

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So what causes a gun to throw the cold bore shot, or the first 2 or 3 shots in a different direction?

I have a home built AR15 that will do maybe 0.5 MOA when the cold bore shots are not included. Its annoying that i dont know if the gun/barrel will throw the first 1, 2, or 3, shots left.

Pictured below, 10 shot group 100 yards. The first 3 shots went left, remaining 7 almost 0.5 MOA.

IMG_20200913_104244_2.jpg
 

Buck Wilde

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you didn't tighten scope and barrel and shoot another group?

No. I had few tools with me, and at that time of year, I was having a problem with rain starting just as I began shooting sessions.

I checked the scope and barrel later, and they seemed fine.

I was using a cheap sheet metal magazine that appeared to be scraping bullets on the way out, so I ordered Magpuls, and I also ground some relief into my cheap magazines. I don't think bullet scraping is the problem, though, because I got that nice group.
 

theLBC

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So what causes a gun to throw the cold bore shot, or the first 2 or 3 shots in a different direction?

I have a home built AR15 that will do maybe 0.5 MOA when the cold bore shots are not included. Its annoying that i dont know if the gun/barrel will throw the first 1, 2, or 3, shots left.

Pictured below, 10 shot group 100 yards. The first 3 shots went left, remaining 7 almost 0.5 MOA.
it can be 3 things
cold bore shift
clean bore shift
cold shooter shift

obviously you can eliminate these by shooting a few rounds before shooting your groups.
if you verify it is cold bore shift, maybe something fits tighter when the barrel is warmed up.
 

Formosan

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it can be 3 things
cold bore shift
clean bore shift
cold shooter shift

obviously you can eliminate these by shooting a few rounds before shooting your groups.
if you verify it is cold bore shift, maybe something fits tighter when the barrel is warmed up.

Must be a cold bore shift, the barrel was shooting good all day, and i had 10 rounds left out of 50 for the day, decided to dry fire a bit and noticed how much the crosshairs jumped when the hammer dropped. I found that by firmly gripping the stock with the left hand side to side, I minimized how much the crosshair moved when the hammer dropped. My group went from 1 MOA to that 1/2 MOA (minus the first 3 shots).

Should I look into some kind of filler between the barrel extension and receiver?
 

theLBC

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Must be a cold bore shift, the barrel was shooting good all day, and i had 10 rounds left out of 50 for the day, decided to dry fire a bit and noticed how much the crosshairs jumped when the hammer dropped. I found that by firmly gripping the stock with the left hand side to side, I minimized how much the crosshair moved when the hammer dropped. My group went from 1 MOA to that 1/2 MOA (minus the first 3 shots).

Should I look into some kind of filler between the barrel extension and receiver?
probably not. generally "free floating" barrel is more accurate and if your shots straighten out, doing anything could make it worse.
so many others have more experience maybe they have some ideas i haven't heard.
 

81STFACP

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How many rounds?

I hate to wear out this soap box but 5, and even 10 shot groups are subject to more white noise than most people realize.

It also matters the standard that people are looking for. I may be alone in this but I'd rather know that EVERY round out of a string of 200 (a PRS match) is going into a 1.1 MOA cone than to say that the rifle is often capable of 5/8 or 1/2 MOA groups. Both statements describe the same rifle. One is useful for evaluating hit probability, one sounds good on the internet.

Ledzep,

Is this an acceptable sample? 140 rounds? MK248 Mod0. Found this in the errornet.

20201228_211509.jpg
 
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MontanaMan

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My experience, however, is that rifles that are truthfully and consistently sub 1/2 MOA are much less common than the internet might suggest.

Nah, they grow on trees..............just sayin.

But if it makes you feel better, Jack Leuba from KAC appears to agree:
From an article he wrote titled "Let's Talk Accuracy" which originally appeared on M4carbine.net

"So what is a 1 MOA gun?
A true 1 MOA rifle would be capable of consistently placing the center every round fired in a 1" group at 100 yards, for multiple groups, with the same POA for all groups, with the only changes to POI being made by environmental factors.

Like I have said before: there aren't too many of those rifles in the world."

MM
 

Ledzep

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    Ledzep,

    Is this an acceptable sample? 140 rounds? MK248 Mod0. Found this in the errornet.

    View attachment 7514106

    Good data. Says what I've been saying. Rifle averages .5 MOA for 5 shot groups with no correlation of MPOI between groups, but also shoots the occasional 0.8 MOA 5 shot group.

    So 1/2 MOA +/- 0.3 plus whatever extra dispersion is present when you correlate the POA vs POI of each 5 shot group.

    Rifle averages .5 moa on a 5 shot group, probably has a total cone of fire from that 70 rounds (per barrel) in the 0.9-1.2 MOA ballpark. Again, the only reason I make the distinction is when it comes to hit probability and effective range. "Averages 1/2 MOA on 5 shots" does not mean "will hit 3/4 MOA target every time". As can be seen above, even not referencing the MPOI of each group, one of the groups was .8 moa...
     

    theLBC

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    great points! i wonder if rifles should only be judged from a sled or something repeatable.
    i can easily turn a ".5 moa" gun into a 2 moa gun, so it seems too subjective to be reliable for rating a rifle.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    When my Eldest Brother saw the way the bolt, barrel extension, and chamber were related on the M-16; he was astounded at the potential for accuracy. He essentially designated it as a bolt gun with concentric locking lugs, and oh, coincidentally, it's a semi, too.

    This from an Old Garand Guy (who shot BR the rest of the time).

    He wanted to build one as a manually operated AR, and considered it an outstanding basis for an accuracy rifle.

    I think there's a bunch of logic in his thinking. The deviltry is in getting that accuracy out of the gun, But it's in there...

    I muppet my way through configuration and assembly, and I learn a bit each time. I like to think I'm narrowing in on his prize.

    Greg
     
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    Greg Langelius *

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    I watched Special K do the GAP Challenge (10rd, 1min, 1000yd, Offhand, Standard 1Kyd target) from down in the pits at Williamsport. He was using his GAP-10. I guess it was around 2005 or so.

    It was like watching a machine punch holes in the target. The group was really good, well within 2MOA, but it was also about a foot to the right off center; dang and all...

    That day, I learned the truth about AR accuracy and expert rifle marksmanship.

    It's a good system than utterly requires top marksmanship to get to its true potential.

    Think about how he accomplished all of this Offhand the next time you get all buzzed up over Prone.

    Greg
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    I think the biggest bugaboo with the AR is the pistol grip.

    Whichever Long Gun I shoot, I do my best shooting with only my thumb and trigger finger touching the fire control group in a consistent pinch. IMHO, the grip itself buggers up all of the finesse involved in the shot's release.

    I think that all of the steering should be done with the non-trigger hand, especially when maintaining proper contact between shoulder and butt, and that the grip only throws unnecessary complexities into that process.

    IMHO, the Grip does its best work during walkabout; when the rifle is being used as an Infantry Weapon.

    Greg
     
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    Ledzep

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    I disagree, Greg. I'm fairly convinced at this point that one of the biggest issues is the upper receiver. Specifically the fact that it's Aluminum, and on M4 uppers it's mighty thin where the barrel nut threads on. Even with a free float fore end the forces have to equal out somewhere. Perpendicular forces on the tube result in bending moments on the upper, which results in deflections. That part of the upper could handle being a stiffer material and/or thicker IMO, to minimize deflection.

    Put the best barrel in the world on it... If it's walking around in its home, relative to the optic, it's not gonna be as pretty. Over the roughly 1 inch of interface between the upper and barrel, it doesn't take much deflection to move the aim point by a half MOA.

    The gas system jetting 20-40ksi gas straight up then back out of the barrel doesn't help, either.
     
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    81STFACP

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    I think the biggest bugaboo with the AR is the pistol grip.

    Whichever Long Gun I shoot, I do my best shooting with only my thumb and trigger finger touching the fire control group in a consistent pinch. IMHO, the grip itself buggers up all of the finesse involved in the shot's release.

    I think that all of the steering should be done with the non-trigger hand, especially when maintaining proper contact between shoulder and butt, and that the grip only throws unnecessary complexities into that process.

    IMHO, the Grip does its best work during walkabout; when the rifle is being used as an Infantry Weapon.

    Greg

    Greg,

    I've seen it on the line especially among new shooters, even with seasoned high power shooters. I often ask the juniors we support, after acquiring sight picture to slowly relax the the grip of the shooting hand and watch the sight picture. I've heard feedback on the movement as far as the next target over.
     

    81STFACP

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    I disagree, Greg. I'm fairly convinced at this point that one of the biggest issues is the upper receiver. Specifically the fact that it's Aluminum, and on M4 uppers it's mighty thin where the barrel nut threads on. Even with a free float fore end the forces have to equal out somewhere. Perpendicular forces on the tube result in bending moments on the upper, which results in deflections. That part of the upper could handle being a stiffer material and/or thicker IMO, to minimize deflection.

    Put the best barrel in the world on it... If it's walking around in its home, relative to the optic, it's not gonna be as pretty. Over the roughly 1 inch of interface between the upper and barrel, it doesn't take much deflection to move the aim point by a half MOA.

    The gas system jetting 20-40ksi gas straight up then back out of the barrel doesn't help, either.

    Ledzep,

    I agree there are some issues with BE to receiver fit, a few upper manufacturers addressed the fit, but not the strength, then there are some who addressed the strength, but not the fit. In high power we are restricted to the standard configuration, no fat oversized receivers. To that end for AR15 we have been using mostly the Bravo company offerings. For the big brother, the JP Enterprises is a good one. JP calls theirs heat to fit. I have encountered Bravo uppers that I have to heat up the upper thread area and cool the extension to fit, but mostly just heat to fit is fine. BE's back when BAT machine were making them, I order a batch quite often with 1.0000 OD. Whiteoak Armaments had special BEs that are 0.300 longer, but the section inside the upper remained the same.

    Joe Carlos addressed the BE to upper fit back when he was supporting a military team. Here is the link to his work, scroll to the bottom

    Articles by author: Carlos, Joe - Free Online Library

    He also addressed the BCG tilt. You can read that in his articles. I addressed the same issue with a different approach. Here is mine.

    20191210_212228.jpg20191210_211953.jpg20191212_225605.jpg
     
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    houndog

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    So this thread seems to have gone in a couple of different directions (all of which have been pretty interesting).

    I have a couple of general observations:

    1. Personally, I believe that the number of true sub-MOA guns is overestimated. I have no doubt that they are out there (particularly among certain brands known for their accuracy). I'm just not sure how common they are. I mean even some guns that guarantee sub MOA accuracy and provide a test target to prove it generally have three shot groups. And it's not clear how many targets it took to get that group (although I doubt any mfg is going to put more than a few minutes and a dozen rounds of ammo to achieve a good group). To me three shot groups are almost meaningless.

    2. Clearly, regardless of a gun's inherent accuracy, in a large number of cases the shooter is going to be a limiting factor. Personally, I struggle to consistently shoot under 1.5 MOA with a number of AR15's/AR10's several of which have the reputation for very good accuracy. I have absolutely no doubt that some of this is attributable to me and that, in the hands of a better shooter, those groups would shrink.

    3. Some of the people posting on this thread are better shooters who seem capable of getting the most out of their guns. But you guys are frustratingly opaque about how you're doing it and advice is sometimes conflicting. Maybe you guys could help us out a little. For example, I don't think I'm slapping/jerking the trigger or really disturbing the sight picture when I shoot or flinching. I really feel that the problems develop in the mili-seconds between my pulling the trigger and the round leaving the barrel. I suppose some dry firing could confirm whether or not that's the case.

    So what are you guys doing that the rest of us aren't to achieve superior results? Recently, I've been concentrating on trying to get directly behind the gun so my entire body absorbs the recoil. Have also been trying to pull back on the pistol grip so the gun is into my shoulder fairly tightly. And maintaining fairly consistent cheek pressure on the stock (not mashing the stock down, but at least some pressure on it). And putting the rear bag in the same place on the stock. But maybe this is all wrong. Also, what are you doing with your non-firing hand. I'm usually just holding the rear bag/squeezing to control elevation. I know some people place non-firing hand on the top of the scope. Would that achieve better results? Worse.
     
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    lowlight

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    It's milliseconds and Microns

    The difference is Lock Time.... a bolt action is about 4ms, a semi-auto, depending on the trigger, is 8ms to 12ms

    You guys are moving too soon, everyone wants to argue the bullet is gone before the bolt unlocks, okay great, but the system is still moving before the bullet leaves because all this action takes TIME

    The trigger is the START Button turning on the machine, not the stop. The entire system is one giant harmonic. I even use a tuning fork in class to talk about it. If a barrel has harmonics how does it not translate to the rest of the system?

    Time is the missing element in your shooting, you fail to recognize time in a semi-auto is 3x longer than a bolt action, (actually it's like 5x, because the Gas moves 5x faster) and it's different between an AR15 and AR10 because of the Mass of the bolt carrier and the speed of the bigger bullet. Where the gas block is and how much barrel continues after is another factor.

    I was the instructor for all the DOEs Mk11 training,(Hundreds of agents) all 3 Ranger BNs, SEALs, SF, etc, for 7 years we taught the military, and every unit we dealt with was using a Semi-Auto in some capacity. We danced with them, which is why I am NOT going back in Time to pull out every instance of success to "prove" anything to be a bunch of nonShooting Losers. You can't shoot so nobody else can, you don't understand the mechanics so nobody else can, you can't squeeze the same level of accuracy out of the system so nobody can.

    Get off the internet and go outside to shoot you might learn something. The reason the 1/2" semis are far and few between is you, not the modern system many employ today.

    You don't have any training, any education on the subject, you are only interested in living in your echo chamber of, "I can't do it, so nobody can" and we'll continue to move the goalposts. You're aren't gonna get a written invitation on how to shoot a Semi-Auto well, you are not interested in learning only repeating the same tired talking points we heard for 20 years.

    Most of the guys who can make them dance won't talk to you, it's that simple. You're not worth talking to, just read this thread.

    Nobody claiming accuracy is talking about lego guns or cheap ass off the big box store shelf stuff. (Although I have seen some nicely built lego gun versions that shoot well). We are talking well built, $3000 models not $1000 ones. I wish I had more images of when I take a guy in class with a Sig 716 and he shoots sub MOA with it, I don't care if it's a single group of out of 10. Most students are lucky to shoot 3 MOA with a gasser, you instruct them to put together a sub MOA group and they are sold. Nothing happens overnight, it takes 3000 repetitions to built a new positive neural pathway, it takes 9000 perfect repetitions to fix a bad habit. How many do you have left ?

    We aren't opaque, we are realistic in knowing:

    1. You won't put in the effort,
    2. All you want to do is argue your mediocrity because you read something on the internet
    3. You continually move the goalposts

    Nobody asks a bolt gun to prove it and everything you want to use as a vehicle is more shooter than the system. I have 100s of images of groups, who cares. If you want to learn something take a class, get off the computer and you'll suddenly see, you can maintain right alongside a bolt gun.

    IMG_20180830_132340.jpg

    Guardian Long Range with a Semi-Auto Valkyrie, Came in 12th, new gun, 88gr Hornady dropped the week of the match I had to zero at the event. Seems to be a Top 15 showing that would contradict a lot of the claims they don't work. I wasn't in a class by myself, I shot alongside everyone else, funny how that works.
     

    81STFACP

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    Frank is right, the trigger lock time in gas guns gives up to the bolt guns, but it is not insurmountable. Trigger time is the key. 10K rounds a year will get you there.

    A properly built gasser behind a seasoned shooter can hang with bolt gunners. 2019 TX Mid Range Championship I had my service rifle (20 inch barrel topped with 4.5X March scope) ready along with 250 rounds of 80 VLDs, but my Asthma kicked my butt, so I handed my rifle and ammo to Greg to shoot. Two days of 600 yard shooting, Greg placed 2nd among all sling shooters. The any rifle any sight winner with his bolt gun and higher magnification scope posted 1191-59X besting Greg's 1190, but Greg posted 62Xs. Whenever a service rifle can out Xed bolt gunners at 6, it is worth noting. Greg also shoots with the state team, whom I support with barrel work.

    Note: The 3rd place winner in the service rifle category was a 14 year old in our program. How she shoots well is no accident, she puts in time on the range on a weekly basis. I venture to say she has more rounds downrange than most. Hers is 10K plus with gas guns. Now at 15 she is just a few points away from getting her rifle distinguished badge.

    20201229_144532.jpg
     
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    gunsnjeeps

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    I always heard what Frank describes above as follow through. Just like swinging a golf club, ball bat, or throwing a ball. I've watched new shooters not let the rifle get back on target before they start setting up the next shot. You also get the trigger tappers who just tap the trigger instead of holding the trigger through recoil, watch that in dry fire sometime.

    My first few years of shooting Service Rifle had me convinced that the guys winning legs and going distinguished had a trick to it. Even when they told me it was just applying the basics to every shot and dry firing. After 20 years with a couple of deployments, a year and half of not shooting, and a job that has about 25% travel I'm telling new shooters to mind the basics and dry fire. Maybe this winter/spring ill start dry firing again.
     

    Ledzep

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    Please. Lol.

    This is a 200yd target, 6.5 Creedmoor.
    KIMG2148.JPG

    I've never said it's impossible. I've done it. I just know what went into finding what does it and I'm fairly confident most folks aren't there. I know how many strings started out at 5 or 10 rounds sub 1/2 that definitely didn't hold it together for 20, 35, 50... There is a very distinct difference between averaging .5 MOA for 5 shot groups and getting 20 or more shots to Never exceed .5 MOA. All I wanted to know is how many shots you shoot to call a rifle/ammo combo "1/2 MOA capable"...
     

    Triple D

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    Please. Lol.

    This is a 200yd target, 6.5 Creedmoor.
    View attachment 7514859

    I've never said it's impossible. I've done it. I just know what went into finding what does it and I'm fairly confident most folks aren't there. I know how many strings started out at 5 or 10 rounds sub 1/2 that definitely didn't hold it together for 20, 35, 50... There is a very distinct difference between averaging .5 MOA for 5 shot groups and getting 20 or more shots to Never exceed .5 MOA. All I wanted to know is how many shots you shoot to call a rifle/ammo combo "1/2 MOA capable"...

    How was that shot (machine rest, benchrest bags, etc..? Setup and range details?

    That ammo is certainly dialed in for that barrel.
     

    lowlight

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    If you want to TEST A RIFLE use a fixture,


    Eliminate the shooter, high round groups are testing the shooter if they are not put in a fixture. A rifle is a dumb machine left to its own devices it will do the same thing over and over again, we are the wildcard.

    People are smart enough to know this, which is why "Accuracy guarantees" are given the leeway they are because of the Human Factor.
     

    lowlight

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    Funny when I was at Hornady they use a test fixture, not a person ...

    In fact most big manufacturers I have been to remove the shooter in all their testing rooms opting for fixtures vs people.

    IMG_2710.JPGIMG_2711.JPG

    What do we call any rifle with an accuracy claim not backed up by 20 shots --- normal, doesn't matter bolt or gas, maybe you should start a company that only provides 20 shot test groups for your rifles see how that catapults you to the top.
     
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    theLBC

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    Funny when I was at Hornady they use a test fixture, not a person ...

    In fact most big manufacturers I have been to remove the shooter in all their testing rooms opting for fixtures vs people.

    What do we call any rifle with an accuracy claim not backed up by 20 shots --- normal, doesn't matter bolt or gas, maybe you should start a company that only provides 20 shot test groups for your rifles see how that catapults you to the top.
    thanks frank, this is exactly what i was saying.
    there is probably no such thing as a .5 moa rifle...if i am shooting it. :p
     

    lowlight

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    What do you call any rifle with an Accuracy Guarantee of fewer than 20 Shots ---------> Normal

    Hell 100 years ago I tried mandating a 5 shot group minimum on here for posting pictures, ask me how that went over and that was when there was probably less than 5000 members on the site, let alone what we have today
     

    houndog

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    Yikes. So, I'm smart enough to know that I'm not going to win an argument with someone who indisputably knows a sh*t ton more about shooting than I do, and who is the moderator of this sight to boot. But some of us acknowledge that we don't know it all, come here to learn, and do want to improve. And some of us who struggle to get sub MOA out of a gas gun admit that our lack of skill is part of the problem.

    So it's a little frustrating when someone who knows how to do it says I could help you but you're not worth talking to. I mean I completely understand that neither me, nor anyone else on this forum is entitled to an individual coaching session. But even the little crumbs people throw out are helpful. Yes, lock time is presumably one of the chief differences between a bolt action and an AR. I assume another is the reciprocating mass of a semi-auto. Presumably these two are related/cumulative. I get that follow through, staying in the gun, etc. is important. And I assume all of this is tied in with recoil management/insuring the gun recoils the same way after each shot.

    If someone who knows how would just take a minute to say here are two, or three, or four things most shooters don't do that leads to poor results when they try to shoot AR's - that would be very helpful.

    And finally, this thread inspired me to go to the range this afternoon to see what I could do with a LaRue I put together about 10 years ago. This is probably my second most accurate AR (of the 7-8 I have owned over the last 20 years). Basically did my own version of the 1 MOA all day challenge. 5 consecutive five round groups. Although I cheated in that I used a Game Changer bag up front and a Precision Underground ELR rear bag, which I don't think would be allowed if I were doing the real challenge.

    In any event, managed to shoot groups of .7", .8", .8", 1.1" and 1.3". So an average of .94" And with the shittiest group just didn't feel like I was behind the rifle properly. So I would say that yes, the LaRue is a sub MOA gun. But I really would like to get better so that I can consistently take advantage of that accuracy.
     
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    lowlight

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    If someone who knows how would just take a minute to say here is two, or three, or four things most shooters don't do that leads to poor results when they try to shoot AR's - that would be very helpful.

    Wow:rolleyes:. wrote a book and doesn't understand a word I said,

    This is crazy, guess we need handwritten invitations for people, if only someone would say, you know 4 things, like trigger control, follow-through, fundamental stuff, breaking at the bottom of the natural respiratory pause, just a few things to help like aligning my NPA to target and checking it.

    if anyone could just spill the secrets of driving a gas gun that would be awesome: so here just for you, repeats basically word for word what was posted, but now with moving pictures.

     

    Precision Underground

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  • Greg,

    I've seen it on the line especially among new shooters, even with seasoned high power shooters. I often ask the juniors we support, after acquiring sight picture to slowly relax the the grip of the shooting hand and watch the sight picture. I've heard feedback on the movement as far as the next target over.
    This is a huge point that many fail to get. The firing hand is for connecting the rifle to your shoulder, not for aiming.
     
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    theLBC

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    This is a huge point that many fail to get. The firing hand is for connecting the rifle to your shoulder, not for aiming.
    i run my thumb straight forward like i would on the traditional stock on my dad's winchester model 88, like he taught me.

    grasping the grip introduces lateral pressure (and the temptation to steer the rifle, even unconsciously).
    you can learn not to do this, but there is no reason (imho) to wrap your thumb around the grip for shooting (groups on paper).
    with only your fingers in front of the grip, you can only really pull straight back, and if you push with your palm at all, you can tell.
    when you are grasping the grip with any pressure, you can't tell if you are pushing or pulling the grip to the side a tiny bit.

    secondly, your thumb is connected to your trigger finger. some people are tighter than others, but almost everyone has some connection.
    to demonstrate what i mean, make a gun with your hand and make that trigger pulling motion. almost every will see their thumb move a little unless they are trying really hard to hold their thumb steady. this anatomical connection can cause you to twist the grip ever so slightly.
    with your thumb in a "neutral" rather than power position, you're going to be more consistent without having to think about it.
    i have a thumb rest so i don't have to think about where my thumb and what it is doing for each shot. it is doing nothing.

    i don't know if that will help anyone, but it might.

    /decades behind a da/sa handgun with a 10lb trigger.
     
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    Precision Underground

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  • i run my thumb straight forward like i would on the traditional stock on my dad's winchester model 88, like he taught me.

    grasping the grip introduces lateral pressure (and the temptation to steer the rifle, even unconsciously).
    you can learn not to do this, but there is no reason (imho) to wrap your thumb around the grip for shooting (groups on paper).
    with only your fingers in front of the grip, you can only really pull straight back, and if you push with your palm at all, you can tell.
    when you are grasping the grip with any pressure, you can't tell if you are pushing or pulling the grip to the side a tiny bit.

    secondly, your thumb is connected to your trigger finger. some people are tighter than others, but almost everyone has some connection.
    to demonstrate what i mean, make a gun with your hand and make that trigger pulling motion. almost every will see their thumb move a little unless they are trying really hard to hold their thumb steady. this anatomical connection can cause you to twist the grip ever so slightly.
    with your thumb in a "neutral" rather than power position, you're going to be more consistent without having to think about it.
    i have a thumb rest so i don't have to think about where my thumb and what it is doing for each shot. it is doing nothing.

    i don't know if that will help anyone, but it might.

    /decades behind a da/sa handgun with a 10lb trigger.
    A lot of people do this but I shoot just fine with the thumb wrapped. You can steer with or without the thumb just the same. Sometimes I don’t wrap it just to be able to get to the bolt faster but this isn’t going to make or break anyone..... same as “loading the bipod”. These are details that you can take or leave and still shoot fine if you get the big things right. Not trying to shoot you down just pointing it out so guys don’t think this is “the answer”. If you have issues it’s not your thumb or loading the bipod. You may need your thumb on the side of the grip to get a good angle at the trigger but that and faster bolt access is really the only reason to do it IMO

    ETA- it sounds snarky reading it back I’m really not trying to come off like that lol. I say it because I spent a lot of time chasing stuff like loading the bipod or hand position. They’re just details that can make things smoother/easier. But if you don’t have the big stuff right you’ll get nowhere while working on it.
     
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    Claluja

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    I've had one AR-15 that would not shoot, a recent build with a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Thought I'd try a cheep barrel and re-learned a lesson:) Compass Lake is money in the bank. I have a couple CLE Krieger barrels that will shoot with just about anything.

    Yep. Kriegers chambered in CLE are typically well below 0.5 with factory.
     
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    theLBC

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    A lot of people do this but I shoot just fine with the thumb wrapped. You can steer with or without the thumb just the same. Sometimes I don’t wrap it just to be able to get to the bolt faster but this isn’t going to make or break anyone..... same as “loading the bipod”. These are details that you can take or leave and still shoot fine if you get the big things right. Not trying to shoot you down just pointing it out so guys don’t think this is “the answer”. If you have issues it’s not your thumb or loading the bipod. You may need your thumb on the side of the grip to get a good angle at the trigger but that and faster bolt access is really the only reason to do it IMO

    ETA- it sounds snarky reading it back I’m really not trying to come off like that lol. I say it because I spent a lot of time chasing stuff like loading the bipod or hand position. They’re just details that can make things smoother/easier. But if you don’t have the big stuff right you’ll get nowhere while working on it.
    i am not offering it as "the answer" i am just saying it can be one thing to consider, whether or not you shoot with your thumb around the grip or not.
    as a relatively new rifle shooter, i am not intending to instruct others but rather passing on something that works for me and others like dave bahde.

    maybe i am the only one that isn't dainty about how they hold the rifle into their shoulder pocket. i'll give you that since it isn't something you can see in video. and again, i use the term "loading" in quotes because i don't think about it as loading fuck.
    all i do is build a bridge, but with a 16lb rifle, building a bridge requires some push on the bipod.


    edit add: i know what you mean about bipod grip. i run one that has big soft rubber feet that don't slip like the harder harris feet i have used.
    if i cannot get the bipod to stick, i pull the rifle into my shoulder pocket with the same amount of pressure.
    that is what i mean by driving the rifle. i have firm pressure while still allowing recoil to come straight back.
     
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    Precision Underground

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  • i am not offering it as "the answer" i am just saying it can be one thing to consider, whether or not you shoot with your thumb around the grip or not.
    as a relatively new rifle shooter, i am not intending to instruct others but rather passing on something that works for me and others like dave bahde.

    maybe i am the only one that isn't dainty about how they hold the rifle into their shoulder pocket. i'll give you that since it isn't something you can see in video. and again, i use the term "loading" in quotes because i don't think about it as loading fuck.
    all i do is build a bridge, but with a 16lb rifle, building a bridge requires some push on the bipod.


    edit add: i know what you mean about tripod grip. i run one that has big soft rubber feet that don't slip like the harder harris feet i have used.
    if i cannot get the bipod to stick, i pull the rifle into my shoulder pocket with the same amount of pressure, and that is what i mean by driving the rifle.
    Settle down man. I literally padded that explaining that I wasn’t trying to shoot you down. You’re saying there’s no way to steer if the thumb is on the side of the grip and that’s wildly inaccurate. You said you shot better groups “doing what precision underground told you not to do” yet you can’t say what it is I told you not to do. Your saying that pushing the rifle helps you without realizing that what it’s doing is connecting the rifle to your shoulder since your firing hand isn’t doing it. I’m not an asshole at all. You coyly called me out as giving you bad info yet you’re spouting bad info and can’t say what bad info I gave you. Maybe just leave it alone.
     

    theLBC

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    Settle down man. I literally padded that explaining that I wasn’t trying to shoot you down. You’re saying there’s no way to steer if the thumb is on the side of the grip and that’s wildly inaccurate. You said you shot better groups “doing what precision underground told you not to do” yet you can’t say what it is I told you not to do. Your saying that pushing the rifle helps you without realizing that what it’s doing is connecting the rifle to your shoulder since your firing hand isn’t doing it. I’m not an asshole at all. You coyly called me out as giving you bad info yet you’re spouting bad info and can’t say what bad info I gave you. Maybe just leave it alone.
    i didn't say that, i said it is easier to feel it.
    i retracted the asshole part, which was a bit uncalled for, so sorry about that.

    you said i should not be pushing on the bipod.
    you can't build a bridge without pressure on the bipod.

    if i had trouble shooting groups, i wouldn't offer anything. i don't even try to shoot groups, they just happen.
    in fact, i have only actually "shot a group" and measured it once.
    i don't care about groups except how it might relate to hitting something very very far away.
    i may have only been doing this for 2 years, but i have been shooting firearms for over 3 decades, so i can tell good advice from bad.
    you might have gotten the wrong idea about me when i offered some different ideas to help a one handed shooter.
     
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    Precision Underground

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  • i didn't say that, i said it is easier to feel it.
    i retracted the asshole part, which was a bit uncalled for, so sorry about that.

    you said i should not be pushing on the bipod.
    you can't build a bridge without pressure on the bipod.

    if i had trouble shooting groups, i wouldn't offer anything. i don't even try to shoot groups, they just happen.
    in fact, i have only actually "shot a group" and measured it once.
    i don't care about groups except how it might relate to hitting something very very far away.
    i may have only been doing this for 2 years, but i have been shooting firearms for over 3 decades, so i can tell good advice from bad.
    you might have gotten the wrong idea about me when i offered some different ideas to help a one handed shooter.


    with only your fingers in front of the grip, you can only really pull straight back,.

    👆🏻

    And no, you shouldn’t be pushing on the bipod if you want to avoid limitations and inconsistency. Just because you shot a good group like that doesn’t mean it’s right. What it’s doing is the job of your firing hand which is connecting the rifle to your shoulder.
     

    theLBC

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    👆🏻

    And no, you shouldn’t be pushing on the bipod if you want to avoid limitations and inconsistency. Just because you shot a good group like that doesn’t mean it’s right. What it’s doing is the job of your firing hand which is connecting the rifle to your shoulder.
    try it. if you pull left or right with your fingers only, it is extremely obvious. similarly if you push on the grip with your palm.
    on the other hand, if you have some meaty paws (or not) and have a grip, it is much easier to push or pull because it takes much less effort.
    you have a power grip with our opposable thumb. leverage and power (doesn't require small muscles in your fingers).
    there is a reason dave has a grip when he is standing up with the rifle, and not off a bipod and bag. you can accept that or not.

    as far as "pushing on the bipod" or building a bridge, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
    i'll listen to phillip and personal experience from doing the same thing (before i saw his video).
    of course, i also use a beefy bipod that has zero flex in the legs, so there is little variable from that perspective.
    using my harris bipod, not only is it difficult to build a bridge on a smooth surface, it flexes under pressure and isn't nearly as consistent.
    the harris may work more consistently with light rifle or just enough pressure to take up the slack or play in the legs.

     
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    Triple D

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    try it. if you pull left or right with your fingers only, it is extremely obvious. similarly if you push on the grip with your palm.
    on the other hand, if you have some meaty paws (or not) and have a grip, it is much easier to push or pull because it takes much less effort.
    you have a power grip with our opposable thumb. leverage and power (doesn't require small muscles in your fingers).
    there is a reason dave has a grip when he is standing up with the rifle, and not off a bipod and bag. you can accept that or not.

    as far as "pushing on the bipod" or building a bridge, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
    i'll listen to phillip and personal experience from doing the same thing (before i saw his video).
    of course, i also use a beefy bipod that has zero flex in the legs, so there is little variable from that perspective.
    using my harris bipod, not only is it difficult to build a bridge on a smooth surface, it flexes under pressure and isn't nearly as consistent.
    the harris may work more consistently with light rifle or just enough pressure to take up the slack or play in the legs.



    It’s not about taking up the flex in the legs as much as it is about not initiating flex of the barrel/receiver interface. Unless you are using a monolithic frame or one designed to operate similarly, you can create deflection by loading inconsistencies.
     

    theLBC

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    It’s not about taking up the flex in the legs as much as it is about not initiating flex of the barrel/receiver interface. Unless you are using a monolithic frame or one designed to operate similarly, you can create deflection by loading inconsistencies.
    it is a scar 20s, so yes it is a monolithic frame.
    we aren't talking about drastic pressure, but enough so i can let go of the rifle and it is supported by the pocket of my shoulder and doesn't slip.
    also notice i can extend the "wheelbase" of the rifle, minimizing the angular deflection from movement of the stock, by using a long bipod angled forward. if you do this with a more popular bipod, the flex in their legs can allow the rifle to move in another direction besides sraight back.
     
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    houndog

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    Following this discussion about loading the bipod with interest. When shooting my bolt actions I've always "loaded" the bipod. On surfaces where bipod doesn't get much grip have actually put a fairly heavy sandbag in front of the bipod to keep it from slipping so I can put a fair amount of pressure on it (and keep the rifle on/in my shoulder fairly securely). I then put almost no pressure on the rifle with my firing hand. Of course, my rifles are either .308 or 6.5CM and have muzzle brakes, so there's generally not a ton of recoil. Using this technique I've been able to put up decent, and pretty consistent groups. It's pretty rare for me to shoot a group that greater than 1 MOA and on a good day I can usually get a few sub 1/2 MOA groups.

    But maybe I've been doing it all wrong. I'm starting to figure out that this doesn't work with semi-autos and that I do have to use my firing hand to pull the rifle back into my shoulder. Maybe need to start doing this with bolt actions as well. The concern is this adds another layer of complexity to the whole process. I now have to concentrate on maintaining constant and even pressure with the bottom three fingers of my firing hand, while insuring index finger is gently squeezing and then following through on the trigger.
     

    CD0311

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    What do you call any rifle with an Accuracy Guarantee of fewer than 20 Shots ---------> Normal

    Hell 100 years ago I tried mandating a 5 shot group minimum on here for posting pictures, ask me how that went over and that was when there was probably less than 5000 members on the site, let alone what we have today
    I member the 5round groups and all the panties in a bunch..
    “Old frank” is back bitches! 🤘🏼
     
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    Skookum

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    20 rounds at 200 yards should be the measure of the shooter/rifle system. JMO
     

    lowlight

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    It's pretty clear what the issue is, you guys lack the basics, it's that simple

    you are talking about thumbs, loading the bipod, etc, and not in a good way. you are still trying to "figure" it all out, as you not understanding or putting it all together, which I see a lot.

    If you are one of the guys, that considers shooting a semi-auto accurately is voodoo or something similar I would recommend a good one and taking a class with it.

    All this stuff is Day One, hour one topics
     

    lowlight

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    20 rounds at 200 yards should be the measure of the shooter/rifle system. JMO

    1. Nobody has the patience for it
    2. We don't all need 20 rounds strings
    3. I thought it was 3 for the rifle, 5 for the shooter, did that change?

    Sure 20 will tell a story, but does everyone need to hear it... look at the Kraft Data thread that is 12 and look at the results. Statistics in this game are meaningless we are not scientists, we are individuals. So sure, having a large enough sample size matters in a lot of ways, not here it doesn't, We don't shoot that way. If all our events were 20 shot strings you might see it catch on, but as I said, I could not convince this site with less than 5000 members to only post 5 shot groups and not 3, how do you think 20 will become a standard,

    And why is this 20 round standard never spoken about when people talk bolt guns?

    I know what I can and cannot do with a rifle, I don't need 20 rounds to flush it out. At least not in one place.

    I can see having a standard that is up to 20 rounds, but stacking them all in one place is silly. We don't shoot groups and shooting groups is a learned skillset by itself. I know many people that never shoot groups, but if they did, it would be pretty impressive.

    Groups are one metric, not the only metric.

    In fact, I came up with the 21 shot Dot Drill because we don't shoot groups, group shooting is a lesson in frustration. Its a training aid for 1 shot, 1 kill so if I can keep every round in a 1/2 MOA Dot doesn't that do the same thing ?
     

    theLBC

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    Following this discussion about loading the bipod with interest. When shooting my bolt actions I've always "loaded" the bipod. On surfaces where bipod doesn't get much grip have actually put a fairly heavy sandbag in front of the bipod to keep it from slipping so I can put a fair amount of pressure on it (and keep the rifle on/in my shoulder fairly securely). I then put almost no pressure on the rifle with my firing hand. Of course, my rifles are either .308 or 6.5CM and have muzzle brakes, so there's generally not a ton of recoil. Using this technique I've been able to put up decent, and pretty consistent groups. It's pretty rare for me to shoot a group that greater than 1 MOA and on a good day I can usually get a few sub 1/2 MOA groups.

    But maybe I've been doing it all wrong. I'm starting to figure out that this doesn't work with semi-autos and that I do have to use my firing hand to pull the rifle back into my shoulder. Maybe need to start doing this with bolt actions as well. The concern is this adds another layer of complexity to the whole process. I now have to concentrate on maintaining constant and even pressure with the bottom three fingers of my firing hand, while insuring index finger is gently squeezing and then following through on the trigger.
    jmo, but maybe the firmer hold dampens the "shaking" from all the moving parts that frank talks about.
    i can even see hammer shake more if i don't have a tight connection.
     

    lowlight

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    How about this,



    Just create a 1/2 MOA dot semi auto target, as Semi is not a Benchrest gun, wanting to shoot one like a benchrest gun or F Class rifle is silly we don't operate that way

    Make a 1/2 MOA dot drill, one shot per just like most practical shooter tend to engage
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Following this discussion about loading the bipod with interest. When shooting my bolt actions I've always "loaded" the bipod. On surfaces where bipod doesn't get much grip have actually put a fairly heavy sandbag in front of the bipod to keep it from slipping so I can put a fair amount of pressure on it (and keep the rifle on/in my shoulder fairly securely). I then put almost no pressure on the rifle with my firing hand. Of course, my rifles are either .308 or 6.5CM and have muzzle brakes, so there's generally not a ton of recoil. Using this technique I've been able to put up decent, and pretty consistent groups. It's pretty rare for me to shoot a group that greater than 1 MOA and on a good day I can usually get a few sub 1/2 MOA groups.

    But maybe I've been doing it all wrong. I'm starting to figure out that this doesn't work with semi-autos and that I do have to use my firing hand to pull the rifle back into my shoulder. Maybe need to start doing this with bolt actions as well. The concern is this adds another layer of complexity to the whole process. I now have to concentrate on maintaining constant and even pressure with the bottom three fingers of my firing hand, while insuring index finger is gently squeezing and then following through on the trigger.
    Pushing on the bipod can work in place of connecting the rifle to your shoulder with your firing hand. But IMO this is a terrible way to move forward because it allows variables in the shooting surface and variables in the shooter to cause POI to move. As LL said, If you need to push on the bipod or be on a specific surface or do any little thing with your hand or anything else… you have something big missing.

    Once you “figure it out“ you realize how simple it is and how none of that stuff matters. It’s very simple...the shooter is connected to the ground, the rifle is connected to the shooter. If those things are done in a correct, consistent, square and straight manner so that no out of line forces are introduced to the rifle at any time you will be consistent shoot really well from any surface with any rifle. All of the little “tips and tricks“ are just Band-Aids to cover up for something being wrong in the system.

    So if a guy is having issues and sees a video about loading the bipod- He goes out and pushes on the bipod and shoots better that day. He thinks he found the answer but all he did was cover up the fact that he’s not connecting the rifle to his shoulder with his firing hand. So now every time he goes out he needs to find a surface to shoot from where he can lock his bipod in and lean into it. His zero probably wanders and inconsistency comes and goes as different amounts of pressure are put on the rifle each time he leans into it. I’m not saying you can’t shoot well this way but you will have limitations and inconsistency.
     

    tuckybill

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    Looks good to me.

    I'll add my one cent worth. To get better with a AR get yourself a hold sensitive pellet gun. A Beeman R1 or a R9. They will drive you crazy at first but with a few tins of pellets you'll get to be able to stack 'em. A AR is a hold sensitive rifle for many of the same reasons. I think it is good practice and certainly saves money and time driving to a range.