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1:12 twist.308 win bullet recommendations

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rtracer13

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Minuteman
Feb 23, 2018
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I’m trying to build up a good 800m-1km target load for my rem 700 varmint with 1:12 twist 26” barrel. My aim is to hopefully have a hunting load out to 350-400m for black bear, and black tail deer... with secondary purpose of getting into precision rifle (hense the 800-1k). Tried 175vld and 168gr barnes tsx pretty extensively as well as 175 gr barnes matchburners and results were usable but not great(1-1.5moa groups with sd from11-16). Thinking of trying either 155gr or 185... but a bit hesitant on the 185 in case it was the twist rate making the 175s perform so average. Thoughts?
 
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Rmas308 said:
Maybe try the 168 eld match. Good BC and some extra velocity.
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Interesting, hadn’t considered it because it was listed as target only but bullet design so far looks identical to the X in higher weights. I’ll need to give them a call and dig deeper
 
Try the Lapua Scenar 155gr or Scenar-L 155gr
If you run them right and your 1:12 barrel likes them, you can get really good accuracy.
Out of a 26" barrel you can probably get around the 2900fps range +/- 50fps depending on your setup.
 
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W54/XM-388 said:
Try the Lapua Scenar 155gr or Scenar-L 155gr
If you run them right and your 1:12 barrel likes them, you can get really good accuracy.
Out of a 26" barrel you can probably get around the 2900fps range +/- 50fps depending on your setup.
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I second this. I have a 1:11.25 bartlein 20” I’m getting 2910 with my 155 Scenar load. Using 2000-Mr powder.
 
You should try the 175 SMK.

I ran the 155 Scenars in my 1:11.25" for a while and they shoot ok but the 175 SMK has significantly better accuracy.
 
McCrazy said:
You should try the 175 SMK.

I ran the 155 Scenars in my 1:11.25" for a while and they shoot ok but the 175 SMK has significantly better accuracy.
Click to expand...
Forgot to mention, but haven't actually tried them yet, but using the data and putting it into twist rate calculator - the 175 SMK was showing it would have mediocre stability with my barrel length/twist rate and temp/altitudes of: 0 degrees c-16 degrees c/90-150m above sea level.
 
I run the 155 Lapua ones in my AI AW 26" barrel that has the original 1:12 twist English barrel setup and it works beautifully.
I can also hit at 1000 without a problem, but the wind does become a bigger factor at that range with those rounds.
 
A 1:12 twist will stabilize 190 gr MatchKings beyond 1,000 yards no problem in a .308 in the Denver area (5,000 ft). (Note, YMMV if you are at sea level in winter time). I have found that the 175gr Matchkings are MUCH more forgiving than the Barnes or Berger VLD and easy to get to shoot well in most rifles. I have used 175gr matchkings on deer and they work well. I would think twice about using them on Bear.

Nothing beats a Barnes TTSX for dropping game in its tracks but getting them to shoot like a dedicated match bullet for long range target shooting is challenging.

I suggest that it is easier to develop a hunting load and a long-range target load using different bullets; however, if you must have a single load then look at the Hornady ELD-X previously mentioned, Nosler Accubond or the Swift Scirroco as a good place to start if you can't get the Barnes ttsx or LRX bullets to shoot.
 
I have one of the same rifles (Rem 700 SPS 1-12" x26" ) my favorite combo in that rifle is 178AMAX with 40.7 gn of AR COMP in Lapua Palma brass and CCI 450 primer that averages 2650 fps. This combo would do everything you described if your rifle behaves the same with similar velocities. That is what is listed as max charge but I am running a longer COAL so it is not compressed and shows no pressure signs, I get 3 to 4 firings with only neck sizing before I start noticing a little resistance of the bolt on some rounds and bump the shoulders back on them.
 
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XLR308 said:
I have one of the same rifles (Rem 700 SPS 1-12" x26" ) my favorite combo in that rifle is 178AMAX with 40.7 gn of AR COMP in Lapua Palma brass and CCI 450 primer that averages 2650 fps. This combo would do everything you described if your rifle behaves the same with similar velocities. That is what is listed as max charge but I am running a longer COAL so it is not compressed and shows no pressure signs, I get 3 to 4 firings with only neck sizing before I start noticing a little resistance of the bolt on some rounds and bump the shoulders back on them.
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What COAL are you looking at with running longer? I limit out at 2.81” in order to feed from magazines smoothly
 
rtracer13 said:
What COAL are you looking at with running longer? I limit out at 2.81” in order to feed from magazines smoothly
Click to expand...

Im not at home right now so dont have access to my notes but have done it so many times its somewhat burned into my brain. If I recall I'm running 2.885 or 2.895 with load described and 178AMAX.
 
I've only hunted mule deer with them, but 168 berger vld's worked well in my 20" Remington Tactical with a 1:12 twist. It was my go to in that rifle for steel plates as well. That was around 10 years ago so there may be other options now. Berger makes a 168 hybrid hunter now and that's were I'd start. They are easier to tune for jump than the vld.
 
Like you I am running a 26" .308 1/12

I shoot mostly at 800' ASL

My rifle is a hammer with 168 SMK's and with various other 155's and M80 ball.

But I can not get this rig to shoot 175 SMK's worth a sh*t. No matter what I do.

You might be in the same boat and may need to stay below that 175gr threshold.

Good Luck!
 
I run 175 SMKs @2635 out to 1k. I tried the 155 SMKs. 155 Scenars as well- they both started to group the faster I pushed,
but I ran into pressure signs before I got results.
 
I am having good results (1/2 MOA or better) with SMK 168 with an identical setup on cartridge, barrel length and twist rate. And I can get almost identical 1/2 MOA performance with the Sierra 165 Spitzer boat-tail hunting bullet. I can put three rounds into four inches at 500 yards, once dialed-in.

But I have also found that Berger 175 VLD hunting bullets perform well at longer ranges. They seem to shoot larger groups at 100 yds, but seem to group much tighter at 1000. On one windy day I put three shots into 10 inches at 1050 Yds.
 
My Rem 700 1:12 shoots 175 SMK well with 42.2 IMR-4064 and Lapua Brass at 2.805 COAL.
 
Howa 1500 1-12 308 Winchester eats Hornady 178 ELD-X for lunch and produces sub .5 groups at 100 and has zero problems smacking steel at 1K.
 
I've had pretty good luck with Berger 168 hybrids out of my 24 inch 1/12.....My rifle seems to like them better than the 175's.
 
Here is a good resource for this very issue: Berger Twist Rate Calculator

Input all of the variables for a bullet you're considering and see what the SG is; anything above a 1.5 and you should be good.

Generally-speaking, .308 rifles with 1:12 twist rates will have some issues with stabilizing the heavier bullets (175gr and up) if their velocity isn't high enough. A longer barrel = more velocity, so the .308's with greater than 20" of barrel are generally, though not always, better at stabilizing a heavier bullet.

A lot of .308 rifles have moved to 1:11.25 (or even 1:10) for this very reason, but a 1:12 twist rate can still work with a long enough barrel. My current rifle is using a 1:12, but it also has a 24" barrel; I've never had any stability issues with 168 and 175 grain bullets. My guess is that the OP should be just fine with similar bullets because of his 26" barrel...but some actual velocity readings and testing will confirm or deny that for sure.

Stay away from the 168gr SMK's; more than a few people have reported stability issues with those bullets out at longer distances.
 
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There is nothing wrong with the inherent stability of the 168’s. They are one of Sierra’s best shooting Bullets. The issue is not one of stability but one of down-range velocity. It is difficult to keep the 168’s supersonic at sea level at 1,000 yards especially out of a gas gun. That is why SIERRA came out with the 175 gr matchkings about 25 years ago They wanted a bullet that was as accurate as the 168 gr matchkings but would stay super sonic at 1,000 yards.
 
I'm sorry but a 308 Winchester rifle with 1 in 12 rifling will stabilize any ordinary 175 - 180 grain bullet all day long as long as those bullets are moving at a decent velocity (2600 fps or so).

I've been shooting the same 308 Winchester, 1-12 Howa 1500 for a decade and I have yet to find a 175 class bullet it won't stabilize. It absolutely loves the Hornady 178 ELD-X over 42.5 grains of TAC all the way to 1000 yards.
 
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My experience with a 24" 1:12, is that is shoots the FGMM 185 Juggs just fine. Should be even better with 2000MR handloads.

IMO the only reason to go to a 1:10 for .308 is if you want to shoot heavy subs or have a short barrel.
 
Here in Denver a 1:12 308 will stabilize 190gr matchkings out to 1,000 yards. Competitors shoot them 2,400-2,500 fps and prefer the heavier Bullets at distance for bucking the wind. Might not work at sea level in the winter .... don’t know.
 
300ATT said:
There is nothing wrong with the inherent stability of the 168’s. They are one of Sierra’s best shooting Bullets. The issue is not one of stability but one of down-range velocity. It is difficult to keep the 168’s supersonic at sea level at 1,000 yards especially out of a gas gun. That is why SIERRA came out with the 175 gr matchkings about 25 years ago They wanted a bullet that was as accurate as the 168 gr matchkings but would stay super sonic at 1,000 yards.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that 168gr .308 bullets had stability issues, rather I said 168 Sierra Match King's had stability issues. Within 600-700 yards, they work just fine; at greater distances, there are reports of them not doing so well. Other 168gr (Hornady's AMAX) don't seem to have the same issue.


308pirate said:
I'm sorry but a 308 Winchester rifle with 1 in 12 rifling will stabilize any ordinary 175 - 180 grain bullet all day long as long as those bullets are moving at a decent velocity (2600 fps or so).

I've been shooting the same 308 Winchester, 1-12 Howa 1500 for a decade and I have yet to find a 175 class bullet it won't stabilize. It absolutely loves the Hornady 178 ELD-X over 42.5 grains of TAC all the way to 1000 yards.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but I do in fact agree with you: 1:12 twist rate with the right barrel length (velocity) will stabilize the heavier .308 bullets just fine.
 
Upstate43 said:
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but I do in fact agree with you: 1:12 twist rate with the right barrel length (velocity) will stabilize the heavier .308 bullets just fine.
Click to expand...
It was a general comment directed at no one in particular. It just gets tiresome to hear people repeat what they read on the internet (1 in 12 won't stabilize 175s) without understanding what they're saying.

You clearly know what you'r talking about.
 
Upstate43 let me say it again and more precisely so there is no confusion: there is nothing inherently unstable about the Sierra .308 168gr MatchKings. They are a very ACCURATE bullet. It is an issue of retaining velocity down-range. ALL bullets exhibit stability/accuracy issues when they enter the transonic to subsonic velocity range. As the shockwave moves up the bullet it affects the bullets accuracy and typically introduces a wobble.

The 168 SMK bullets are not as sleek as the 175 SMK or the Hornady's and tend to "fall off" sooner. Personally they work great at 1,000+ yards here in Denver but YMMV if you are shooting them out of a .308 at sea level in the winter ...
 
300ATT said:
Upstate43 let me say it again and more precisely so there is no confusion: there is nothing inherently unstable about the Sierra .308 168gr MatchKings. They are a very ACCURATE bullet. It is an issue of retaining velocity down-range. ALL bullets exhibit stability/accuracy issues when they enter the transonic to subsonic velocity range. As the shockwave moves up the bullet it affects the bullets accuracy and typically introduces a wobble.

The 168 SMK bullets are not as sleek as the 175 SMK or the Hornady's and tend to "fall off" sooner. Personally they work great at 1,000+ yards here in Denver but YMMV if you are shooting them out of a .308 at sea level in the winter ...
Click to expand...

I guess my point is: if 168gr SMK's won't work well for all possible shooting scenarios (location, temperature), then a .308 target shooter is better off using other loads (168g AMAX, 175gr SMK's, 178gr ELD-X).
 
300ATT said:
Personally they work great at 1,000+ yards here in Denver but YMMV if you are shooting them out of a .308 at sea level in the winter ...
Click to expand...
Winter or summer makes no difference, I've seen them suck ass at 1000 yards NRA matches here in the midwest at 1500 ft MSL.

I'm not ballistics expert but what I've been told is that their design transitions awfully through the sound barrier.

At any rate, they were designed in the 60s as a bullet specifically for the Army Marksmanship Unit's ISU (now ISSF) 300 meter rifle team. There are better tools for the longer range job now in the same weight, from Sierra and everyone else.
 
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Yes there are better Bullets for long range .308 shooting. I haven’t shot them since the 175’s came out 20 years ago. That being said the 168 shoot really well as long as you can keep them super sonic.
 
308pirate said:
It was a general comment directed at no one in particular. It just gets tiresome to hear people repeat what they read on the internet (1 in 12 won't stabilize 175s) without understanding what they're saying.

You clearly know what you'r talking about.
Click to expand...
I love reviving old threads.

I'll say this much, my 25.5" 1:12 will not yield better than 1moa @100yds with 175smk. But runs 155 SMK/Palmas at 1/3 or better. Best at distance is 2.5" 5shot group at 600. 45.0 Imr 8208 2.840"
 
willfullyarmed said:
I love reviving old threads.

I'll say this much, my 25.5" 1:12 will not yield better than 1moa @100yds with 175smk. But runs 155 SMK/Palmas at 1/3 or better. Best at distance is 2.5" 5shot group at 600. 45.0 Imr 8208 2.840"
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see-nobody-cares-memes.png
 
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I shot the 175 smk in my SSG-04 1-12 23.6 in barrel with zero issues and it grouped under 1/2 moa. The match burners never shot that great in mine either. Never tried VLD'S. The 175 SMK is very easy to stabilize. What powder are you using? I was shooting Varget at 42.8 20 off the lands and was getting 2667 avg with an sd of 4.9.
You never know it just might be you barrel is not great and that's all that barrel can do.
 
GIXXER2000 said:
I shot the 175 smk in my SSG-04 1-12 23.6 in barrel with zero issues and it grouped under 1/2 moa. The match burners never shot that great in mine either. Never tried VLD'S. The 175 SMK is very easy to stabilize. What powder are you using? I was shooting Varget at 42.8 20 off the lands and was getting 2667 avg with an sd of 4.9.
You never know it just might be you barrel is not great and that's all that barrel can do.
Click to expand...
It has run everything from 150-168gr @ 1/3moa or less. 150 gold dots and 155palmas tend to be 1/4 MOA @100, 2.5" @ 600 yards being the best at distance so far. Probably not the barrel.
 
GIXXER2000 said:
From what you said barrel is fine. You may want to try the new 169 SMK's you should have no issue with those.
Click to expand...
The first recipe I ever tried in this gun was 168smk with the presently elusive R15, resulting in my first sub 1/2moa group with the gun. I prefer the 155 Palma to the 168smk... But, with the recent turn of events, I may try some more 200+gr options. Plus, they're super loud out of the brake. Makes the peasants in the lanes next to me scramble for more ear pro.
 
I think 200gr would be to heavy for 1-12. the 178 is the heaviest I have use in a 1-12 24 in barrel. I have shot some 200gr hybrids out of my 1-10 26 in barrel and they shot fine.
 
rtracer13 said:
I’m trying to build up a good 800m-1km target load for my rem 700 varmint with 1:12 twist 26” barrel. My aim is to hopefully have a hunting load out to 350-400m for black bear, and black tail deer... with secondary purpose of getting into precision rifle (hense the 800-1k). Tried 175vld and 168gr barnes tsx pretty extensively as well as 175 gr barnes matchburners and results were usable but not great(1-1.5moa groups with sd from11-16). Thinking of trying either 155gr or 185... but a bit hesitant on the 185 in case it was the twist rate making the 175s perform so average. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Must snipers rifles today have a 1in 8 twrist. With the idea of suppression. . They are running 210 and larger grain bullet. A 175 grain is stable with a 11.25. But if I was going to run a suppressor. I would at least run a 10 twrist..
Check the Barrett Mrad you see the twrist they run. Same with AI and Sako.
 
rtracer13 said:
I’m trying to build up a good 800m-1km target load for my rem 700 varmint with 1:12 twist 26” barrel.
Click to expand...
My experience shooting 30" .308 Palma rifles is that 1:12 twist may be too slow for heavier bullets over ~170 grain, especially for long range (out to 800-900 M). The 1:12 twist works great for 155 grain & under bullets.

Sierra makes a 168 HPBT hunting bullet (very much like the Matchking) but it may fall short at 800-900 M.
 
Sardious said:
My experience shooting 30" .308 Palma rifles is that 1:12 twist may be too slow for heavier bullets over ~170 grain, especially for long range (out to 800-900 M).
Click to expand...

Interesting. The US FTR team seemed to do okay with the 185 Juggernaut in a 12 twist for the 2013 FCWC in Raton 🤷‍♂️

To be fair, I know I - and others - had some misgivings, and would have preferred an 11 tw. Mid Tompkins was insistent (head wind coach at the time), the captain (Darrell Buell) checked with Litz, who said "it should work".

But well before that, I knew people pushing the S190MK out of 12, or even 13, twist Palma barrels.
 
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