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2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak, I think you guys should have two Classes. One that allows guys to use equipment with batteries and one that does not allow use with batteries.

If you are not allowing GPS why let people use Range finders? If you are going old school go Old school.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Also, a Clydesdale division for us big guys would also be appreciated....
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I would have no personal issues with the suggestion above RE no electronic devices. This would impose some extra challenges with ranging, dope, and navigation. My wife and I would be willing participants in this class if it is offered. We have no problem if certain electronics are allowed either. We are just looking forward to the event. Thanks for organizing a difficult challenging match.

Geb
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Negative on split divisions. Multiplying divisions dilutes the competition and eventually you have classes for everyone including <span style="font-style: italic">".308, height 5'4" to 5'10", 38-42 years old, corrective lenses, lives at sea level"</span>.

The intent is not to go "old school"; it's to provide the best all round challenge. (After all, we are not restricting you to use a 1970's long-range rifle, M1 Carbine/AR-15A1/A2, and M1911A1.) GPS use on land nav dramatically changes the problem-solving aspects of that part of the race. On most of the targets, we're not going to tell you what size they are so milling will be impossible. There is a good likelihood we'll have you range some stuff with your reticle, but that will be a specific test/challenge.

-z
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

This event sounds amazing! Thanks for putting it together!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Any shooting accessories may be used provided they are carried by the team during every stage. Accessories include but are not limited to:
bipods (rifle only), bags, shooting sticks, slings, jackets, gloves, or other shooting support devices
optics such as spotting scopes, binoculars, and range-finders
secondary optics for use on rifle or carbine </div></div>

What about ballistic software on an iPhone? The phone can be used as a gps, so honor code? I thought I would just check before starting my packing list.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Montaguegp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This event sounds amazing! Thanks for putting it together!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Any shooting accessories may be used provided they are carried by the team during every stage. Accessories include but are not limited to:
bipods (rifle only), bags, shooting sticks, slings, jackets, gloves, or other shooting support devices
optics such as spotting scopes, binoculars, and range-finders
secondary optics for use on rifle or carbine </div></div>

What about ballistic software on an iPhone? The phone can be used as a gps, so honor code? I thought I would just check before starting my packing list.
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "All two-way communications devices are prohibted, other than SPOT trackers and radio gear provided by the match. This means cell phones are prohibited. One-way PLB's are permitted.
GPS, cell phones, and other communications devices may be brought and used for emergencies only, or to coordinate extraction if a team quits. All such devices will be sealed in a container by match staff prior to the event. Use of any such device during the match shall incur an extreme scoring penalty.. </div></div>

Ok. Sorry, let's say an iPad. Not a cell phone as stated not allowed to have.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I badly want to do this.

That said, this one won't work out for me due to timing of other stuff in life.

Any plans on making this happen again?

I don't want to ask about other venues similar to this, but this is the first I have heard of this type of shooting event, and if you have something to share I would be appreciative.

Thanks
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Check out the other matches I have going on next year through Competition Dynamics. The Team Challenge is a different format but still more physical than 99% of matches. Links in my signature below this post.

I can't make promises about the future (2013 schedule), but the pattern has been that we continue and improve matches if we run the first one and it works out well and there's increasing interest.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Hi Guy's
I am new to the board and am seriously considering this challenge.
I have a few question though!
1. Will this competition be tailored to the Military Professional? Or will the Average Joe (Me) have any chance at all?
2. Is there a significant difference between Utm & Mgrs?
3. what scale will the map be in?
Thank you

 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John7722</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Guy's
I am new to the board and am seriously considering this challenge.
I have a few question though!
1. Will this competition be tailored to the Military Professional? Or will the Average Joe (Me) have any chance at all?
2. Is there a significant difference between Utm & Mgrs?
3. what scale will the map be in?
Thank you

</div></div>

I believe if you read all of the posts in this thread, or go to the links Zak provided, you will find all the answers to the questions you have. Although, I'm sure Zak will be happy to answer any questions you have. Oh, and welcome to the boards!!
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

My wife, who ran her first competitive half-marathon this year, said she would be willing to do this with me and carry the carbine if I did the land Nav. Any thoughts on whether I would still be married after 24 the hours?
laugh.gif
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Answers-

1.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We do not intend to require specific knowledge that is only available from military training. This is not a military-only match; a well prepared civilian team should be able to win if they can perform and solve problems better than the rest. </div></div>

2.
Plenty of time to read up on UTM and MGRS. Here are two links
http://www.andrewlesley.freeserve.co.uk/gps/UTMMGRS.html
http://www.andrewlesley.freeserve.co.uk/gps/convertr/UTM-MGRS.html

3.
The scale of the map we'll provide has not yet been determined. I would just draw attention to this
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are free to bring any additional maps of the area (in hard-copy form, no electronics) </div></div>
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My wife, who ran her first competitive half-marathon this year, said she would be willing to do this with me and carry the carbine if I did the land Nav. Any thoughts on whether I would still be married after 24 the hours?
laugh.gif
</div></div>

You may be skating on thin ice and not know it. LOL.... Put it this way, either you will be married for many more years to come, or be sleeping the garage for the next few decades.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak or Cody, do you have any advice as to what to update my 80's vintage compass to for use in this type of map-reading only comp?
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Standard USGS 7.5 minute quads are tick-marked on the edges for UTM, although you will generally need to rule the grid in yourself, except on some older maps which had the grid overprinted on it. Current ones don't.

And anyone who's serious about land nav with a map needs to learn UTM or MGRS. The differences between them are not significant.

A compass with sighting capabilities is highly desirable to do resections, which are hard to do without that. Which one you use is not very important.

For this event, lots of practice in land nav will be useful, until you can do it in your sleep - which is essentially how you will be doing it much of time...
smile.gif
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zak or Cody, do you have any advice as to what to update my 80's vintage compass to for use in this type of map-reading only comp? </div></div>
"Nope, as long as it still points north."
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zak or Cody, do you have any advice as to what to update my 80's vintage compass to for use in this type of map-reading only comp? </div></div>

Suunto makes decent units. Also, Cammenga now has the military contract (they took over from Stockton and Yale, who for years made the SandY 183, which is the older military issue compass), and I've always preferred a good military-style lensatic to most civilian models. They're somewhat spendy, but they do make a version that's phosphorescent vice tritium for illumination and they're a bit cheaper. As long as you have a flashlight of some sort, you can "charge" the phosphorescent version and it'll glow just fine for any night land nav.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Looks like this is going to be a great comp for you Military guys, or Boy scouts. I guess I will need to just sponsor it this year. Can I use ON STAR for navigation.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Looks like all you guys need is people firing back....

Too much for me, I'm just a guy that shoots.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For this event, lots of practice in land nav will be useful, until you can do it in your sleep - which is essentially how you will be doing it much of time...
smile.gif
</div></div>LOL! Here's hoping that it will be warmer in Utah in July than it is in Michigan in January, because our first field practice day is scheduled for the January snow.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Standard USGS 7.5 minute quads are tick-marked on the edges for UTM, although you will generally need to rule the grid in yourself, except on some older maps which had the grid overprinted on it. Current ones don't.

And anyone who's serious about land nav with a map needs to learn UTM or MGRS. The differences between them are not significant.

A compass with sighting capabilities is highly desirable to do resections, which are hard to do without that. Which one you use is not very important.

For this event, lots of practice in land nav will be useful, until you can do it in your sleep - which is essentially how you will be doing it much of time...
smile.gif
</div></div>

So this really is turning into a land navigation competition, with some shooting at targets. LOL...LOL....
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

It's always been:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">This event is an adventure race</span> involving: land navigation; practical shooting with long-range rifle, carbine, and pistols; fieldcraft; problem solving; and other related tasks. </div></div>
To win you will need to be good at land nav, but land nav alone is not enough to win.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Zak, Just joking with you guys. I am really showing my jealousy because I do not know about Land Nav, <span style="color: #3366FF">BUT I WILL BY NEXT YEAR. I PROMISE YOU THAT.</span> This is going to be a great event. I give you guys my full support.

 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Personally I am fond of the Silva Ranger for a land nav compass. The Silva with a 7.5' quad and a mylar UTM overlay served me well in the field for years. [I toght I alreadt posted this so apologies if it shows up twice.]
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Speaking for myself, I learn better and faster when I've already committed to do something. There's plenty of time before the 2011 match to prepare and train...
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Concerning commitment, William H. Murray, in <span style="font-style: italic">The Scottish Himalayan Expedition</span>, wrote,

“Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. I learned a deep respect for one of Goethe's couplets:

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it!'”

While we know that Goethe didn't actually say that, I nevertheless agree with Murray.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

+1 on the Silva Compass. Back in the old Corp we all carried them along with our issue compass.

The land nav would be no problem but now that I am long in the tooth 30 miles is out of my league. I have grown into the Little Feat song "old folks boogie". This will for sure raise the bar on how tactical long range matches are measured
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">'Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it!'”</div></div>I would urge people hesitant about trying this match to make a plan and start training for it. As in climbing, siege-style tactics are for repeats, not first ascents. This comp appears to be more like a 'new route', requiring more of a the ‘Single-Push’ style: no fixed ropes; no camps. As for the distance to be travelled, the task must be hard enough only to put petty conflicts in perspective. And as to the fear factor of having to compete against otherwise professional teams, Mark Twight once observed that public backing doesn’t buy balls.

BTW, I see that there is much cooler gear available now than ever before, and so I'm leaning toward this one: http://www.thecompassstore.com/51mc2gl.html
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I, being a civilian would love to compete in this match, but like some have mentioned here, I have no nav experience. If Cody were to possibly put on a course for a few individuals, I would be the first in line to take said course in preperation for this match. That being said, I will probably sign up anyway. Now to find a partner...


Bill
Snap Shots Gun Shop
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

For workout prep look at Mountain/Tactical Athlete website. It has a great afghanistan prep guide, kinda fits the bill for this terrain. My old unit used Utah as a training ground before Afghanistan.

Ruck, Ruck and do more rucks. Carrying ammo, water, food, weapon system(s) and optics is going to add up.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Crap, my dance card is pretty much full this coming year. This looks like one hell of an event.</div></div>Maybe consider making room: For a few years now I've been begging for someone [like Rifles Only] to put on another 24-hour match. Everyone who has hosted one tells me that the relentless pace and the additional safety concerns end up working the match director and staff to the point of exhaustion. It looks like Zack and Ray are stepping up, so I'll move whatever mountain I have to move to try to show up.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Some notes to catch up with the comments--

Lindy I dig the quote. You can't make it happen until you decide to make it happen.

Graham's comments about planning, preparation, and training are dead on.

<span style="font-weight: bold">IF YOU WANT A LAND NAV CLASS</span>
Please email me and I'll put you on a list. I'll collect names for 4-6 weeks (from now) and then we'll see what we can schedule with Cody. Use [email protected] and put "TRAIN UP" in the subject line. Include some date windows for scheduling. This class (or classes) would probably be held in the UT-NM-CO-WY area, but if we get enough interest to justify a trip somewhere else that's a possibility. Pricing will be roughly similar to a long-range shooting class of the same length, but it will finally depend on location and number interested.

<span style="font-weight: bold">SHOOTING TRAIN UP</span>
For the shooting components of the match, any of the TBAC Training Group classes in 2012 will apply. Usually #205 and #206 are the best fit for train-ups because of the flexible field format and extreme small groups we split up into. http://www.thunderbeastarms.com/training/

<span style="font-weight: bold">IF THE SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE IS TOO MUCH .. </span>
The 24HSAC was meant to be the top-end physical and mental challenge that we put on in 2012. We have other great matches on the calendar that are easier physically and put a higher emphasis on shooting. The focus and challenges of each of these is different.

Thunder Beast Team Challenge - longest single stage is approx 1 hour, approx 1.25 miles in length. Total hiking of approx 4-5 miles per day. Stages included field LR stages, close and tight assault stages (for 2 carbines), and problem solving/night stages. Check out the 2011 match thread for info. It was quite a hit. Winning team had an average age of mid-40's.

Steel Safari - Movement is not timed, just your activities at the shooting positions. Total hiking approx 2-4 miles per day on two days. Match has been going on since 1998 and I've been the MD since 2008. Hike-n-shoot: locate, range, and shoot targets in fixed time. Winning shooter is usually in his 40's or 50's.

Everyone's already tuned into the SHC in its thread, so I won't describe it here.

Just a final note, our sponsor and promotions director has great plans for all these matches in 2012, so our prize tables should be fantastic. He pulled together a $35k+ prize table in only 3 months for the 2011 TB Team Challenge, so I know he can make it happen.

 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Hey guys, I'm the guy designing the match. Lots of good questions here. I just wanted to address them all briefly with a couple of statements. I'm still currently serving in an "elite" unit, all be it a reserve one. But one of the problems that I see today is a lack of competence in small unit tactics. Land nav training, and other "old school" skill sets have fallen off the map, no pun intended, and I think it's apparent in field exercises. Route selection is done now by what the machine tells you, and doesn't take into account the enemy, terrain or human factors. There is no "google" for small unit tactics. This match will be won by the smartest and most well rounded team. Not the one with best gadgets.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G-TAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This match will be won by the smartest and most well rounded team. Not the one with best gadgets.
</div></div>

Blasphemy!!
laugh.gif


Many here will not want to compete because they cannot "buy" their skill set. I loved land nav training and am looking forward to this.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G-TAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are going to love it. </div></div>If I finish it, that is. For now I'll work toward being able to start it.
smile.gif
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G-TAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This match will be won by the smartest and most well rounded team. Not the one with best gadgets.
</div></div>

Blasphemy!!
laugh.gif


Many here will not want to compete because they cannot "buy" their skill set. I loved land nav training and am looking forward to this. </div></div>

what? nobody on here thinks that... ok i can't even say that with a straight face. we need more matches where you lay on a cement slab and don't more and just play "who's gun is more expensive then who's"... just saying
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

Should be a hoot starting on 7/27 @1600 and going overland through the night with a only a first quarter moon. Easier than doing it with just a new moon! Even more fun engaging targets at night, which what I assume is what we'll be doing. See you all there!
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

I got a partner and were working up for this now. It will be our first tactical competition but were stoked! How will the range be doctored i.e. is it like a here is your map and list of objectives your time starts now? or are we going to get briefs and have some one constantly checking us? No doubt well be under gunned but we'll put up a hell of a fight!
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

You have 7+ months to prepare. A great new year's resolution for many of us. At least 30 miles (probably a bit longer), there are humans that run 26.2 in about 2 hours. Think about it. What condition do you want to be in when the zombies come? The winning team will average 2.5 MPH. How hard is that?
"Survivability for the prepared individual is 75% mental, 15% skill, 5% physical ability, and 5% luck."
Start your mental prep now. PT, study, and change you socks.
 
Re: 2012 24-HOUR SNIPER ADVENTURE CHALLENGE

It's going to be more list a list of objectives and then start now.

I know everyone has a lot of specific questions about how everything will work. Let me post this general comment to address them for now:

You have the general idea of the adventure challenge and the gross match parameters. If you prepare for the types of things we've listed, you'll be in good shape. As the match gets closer, we'll publish additional information about things you need to know -- but not everything. Some will remain a mystery. Some stuff you won't know until you arrive at a checkpoint and get the briefing for the tasks to accomplish there.

thanks
Zak