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.223 Rem TAC and 75 ELDM Experiment - Range day update

Pharmseller

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 14, 2021
894
1,871
Oregon
I have a new-to-me stainless Tikka T3 Varmint in .223, bought it here on the Hide. It shot my previous 75 gr ELDM load okay, but not how I know Tikkas can shoot. I figure that if I have to do it over I’m gonna do it differently.

I did some research and decided to try TAC. I’m running it kinda hot so I’m not gonna post my load, but chrono testing gets me 3043, ES 16, SD 6, but only 7 shots. Brass looks fine, no bolt lift issues. I’m loading pretty long with Mountain Tactical magazines.

I put together a seating depth test starting at just kissing the lands (2.477”) and ending at 2.373,” which isn’t far from the ogive. Weather permitting I’ll be able to get an afternoon in maybe Wednesday.

AA628C0A-28D1-4B29-8752-92EEC02FD2F8.jpeg


I’m looking for Tikka accuracy. 3043 with a .235 G7 ain’t bad.



P
 
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I've been running 73gr and 75gr ELDM's over TAC since 2018. I use CCI 41 or 450 primers with Lapua brass. Using a Forster bump die with bushings, 21st Century mandrel and annealing every time has yielded excellent brass life so far. It's a really fun load for LR and PDogs.
 
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I've been running 73gr and 75gr ELDM's over TAC since 2018. I use CCI 41 or 450 primers with Lapua brass. Using a Forster bump die with bushings, 21st Century mandrel and annealing every time has yielded excellent brass life so far. It's a really fun load for LR and PDogs.
How much TAC?

And what’s the velocity?
 
I sized some brass this afternoon from my chrono test. Primer pockets were as tight as a frog’s ass.

R-P brass, CCI 400 primers.




P
 
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Awesome! I just ran out of tac and trying something else right now. Just did a pressure test and got to 3166 with 75 eld’ms. A sweet node between 3100-3140fps but it’s a little warm and a slight bolt clock. No other signs of pressure. Other node not as good looking at 2980 fps so going to start there
 
Awesome! I just ran out of tac and trying something else right now. Just did a pressure test and got to 3166 with 75 eld’ms. A sweet node between 3100-3140fps but it’s a little warm and a slight bolt clock. No other signs of pressure. Other node not as good looking at 2980 fps so going to start there


Keep us posted.
 
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How's the MT magazine treating you?

I had to send mine back because it wouldn't feed reliably. Waiting on a Gen 3 which is a little ways out but they've been good about keeping me updated at least.
 
How's the MT magazine treating you?

I had to send mine back because it wouldn't feed reliably. Waiting on a Gen 3 which is a little ways out but they've been good about keeping me updated at least.

4th round hangs up sometimes. Minor annoyance, push the tip down and the rim pops up and feeds.
 
Range day today and the conditions were great.

I started the seating depth test with the shortest rounds. Awful. The first 3 iterations were more like a shotgun pattern than a group. The next two lengths showed promise but then I got to the longest set, just barely touching the lands.

8B240355-B7D6-41BB-A0D3-688C4329135F.jpeg



I need to roll a few more but this is a pretty good first effort.
Safe in my rifle only, do not exceed published loads.
OAL is 2.477”
 
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I rolled a few more today from the accuracy load to run over the chrono. Average of 10 shots was 3101, SD of 16,
which I thought was a little high. The original test load (3043) was a little shorter but the sd was only 6.

For you statistics wonks out there the mean was equal to the median which was equal to the mode. But still, 10 shots is just the start.

I rolled enough for a range day to confirm precision.

Brass looks good. Primers are maybe a touch cratered but bolt lift was easy. Primers look proud but it’s just the angle.


27EA1E4D-29B2-4CC8-88D8-196A17EABD7F.jpeg





P


 
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Dang!!!
Thats some crazy speed!
And nice shooting!

New .223 here has an 18” barrel.
Ran into signs with 24.1 of TAC and 75 bthp in LC brass.
Wylde chamber.
 
So pretty crazy accuracy and numbers from mixed head stamp brass. I wouldn't expect it to do that consistently.
 
Back from the range day. Can confirm.



75 grain ELDM, G7 BC .235 @ 3101 fps.

Safe in my rifle only, work up to published loads. Do not exceed maximums.

That’s awesome! Makes me feel better about continuing with my load! Everyone kept telling me back off that’s way way too hot. There is 0 signs of any pressure minus the slightest little bolt click which is obviously some pressure, but the node is huge, the accuracy is even better and the speed is 3100+ fps with 75 eld.
 
So pretty crazy accuracy and numbers from mixed head stamp brass. I wouldn't expect it to do that consistently.

Wow, thanks for the sharp eyes. I’ve been using R-P for so long I stopped looking at headstamps.

I just went through 300 cases and found 5 that didn’t belong. I’ll have to be more vigilant in the future.



P
 
Wow, thanks for the sharp eyes. I’ve been using R-P for so long I stopped looking at headstamps.

I just went through 300 cases and found 5 that didn’t belong. I’ll have to be more vigilant in the future.



P
Probably just go through your entire stash and make sure. Better safe than sorry!

😉
 
I have read that the fastest velocity achieved for an 80gr SMK was with Tac. Who knows but it seems to be a great powder. Ive been messing with 8208 XBR and the 75gr ELD. 3044 out of a 26" barrel at 35 degrees. Gonna keep working with tac too. Found some powder nodes now gonna play with seating depth. If I seat the bullet deeper the velocity and pressure should go up correct?
 
I am pretty sure the fastest velocity without blowing primers in a 5.56 is using PP Varmint Powder. Its incredible. Blows away tac and very similar burn rate and consistency/metering/load data.
 
I have read that the fastest velocity achieved for an 80gr SMK was with Tac. Who knows but it seems to be a great powder. Ive been messing with 8208 XBR and the 75gr ELD. 3044 out of a 26" barrel at 35 degrees. Gonna keep working with tac too. Found some powder nodes now gonna play with seating depth. If I seat the bullet deeper the velocity and pressure should go up correct?
Not necessarily.

 
I am pretty sure the fastest velocity without blowing primers in a 5.56 is using PP Varmint Powder. Its incredible. Blows away tac and very similar burn rate and consistency/metering/load data.
I have read that the fastest velocity achieved for an 80gr SMK was with Tac. Who knows but it seems to be a great powder. Ive been messing with 8208 XBR and the 75gr ELD. 3044 out of a 26" barrel at 35 degrees. Gonna keep working with tac too. Found some powder nodes now gonna play with seating depth. If I seat the bullet deeper the velocity and pressure should go up correct?
Not quite. While both TAC and PP Varmint are capable of some great speeds, Lever is the king of speed (at least in anything commercially available) in heavy bullet (really anything over 69gr) 223 / 5.56 loads. There is no published data that I know of for it, but working up your own loads side by side with TAC will show a significant speed advantage to Lever. This has held true for me in everything from 65-85gr bullets (mostly in 223 Wylde and 5.56 chambers, so longer throats than 223 Rem) and a bunch of different barrel lengths. I have not loaded the 80 SMK, but having loaded bullet weights on either side of that, I don't see why it'd be any different.

8208 is a great 5.56 powder and very temp stable, but it won't get you anywhere close to TAC speeds at sane pressures, much less match what Lever can do.

Also FWIW AA2520 is capable of some really good velocity too. It and Lever are both fairly temp sensitive of course. CFE223 is no slouch either, and sometimes the data for that powder is close to (although slightly lighter) Lever loads.
 
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I have read that the fastest velocity achieved for an 80gr SMK was with Tac. Who knows but it seems to be a great powder. Ive been messing with 8208 XBR and the 75gr ELD. 3044 out of a 26" barrel at 35 degrees. Gonna keep working with tac too. Found some powder nodes now gonna play with seating depth. If I seat the bullet deeper the velocity and pressure should go up correct?


On the seating depth thing - pressure generally goes up as jump to the lands decreases, meaning bullets are loaded longer.
The "rule of thumb" about pressure increasing when bullets are seated deeper is more for straight wall pistol rounds; with the bullet being a large diameter relative to the powder space, seating just .010" deeper can have a large % effect on available powder space, and that ends up being more significant than distance to the lands.

But in most bottleneck rifle cases, where the bullet is a small diameter relative to the case body, seating that same .010" deeper has a pretty minimal effect on the % change to available powder space. However if the bullet is anywhere close to the lands, even at .100" off, it can make a noticeable change to the bullet's starting resistance into the lands, which directly affects pressure. This is why that "rule of thumb" is usually backwards for rifle rounds, and why I mentioned to you that Gordon's tool isn't reliable because it gets this backwards as well.
 
I like TAC with the heavier bullets (used to be great stuff with 65gr Sierra SBT) but I'm using more X-terminator now as shooting more and more 55gr bullets.
 
Do
Not
Use
This
Load


I went sage rat shooting last weekend. Temps got up to the high 70’s.

And when they did, pressure got too high. Like punctured primer/blow the bolt shroud off the Tikka high.

So back to Varget and sane velocities.

I have learned a valuable lesson while paying a minimal price.

Lucky as hell, I am.




P
 
Do
Not
Use
This
Load


I went sage rat shooting last weekend. Temps got up to the high 70’s.

And when they did, pressure got too high. Like punctured primer/blow the bolt shroud off the Tikka high.

So back to Varget and sane velocities.

I have learned a valuable lesson while paying a minimal price.

Lucky as hell, I am.




P

Yeah, that can happen with any temp sensitive powder if you work up a hot load in cooler weather, and then go shoot it in warm weather.

A comment about going back to Varget "and sane velocities" though - velocity isn't what punctured a primer for you, it's pressure. The lower velocity with Varget does not necessarily correlate to lower pressure; be careful not to make that assumption. You can easily be pushing the same or higher pressure with Varget or other similar stick powders like 8208, Benchmark, etc, while giving up 200-300 fps compared to to TAC or other high velocity 223 powders. What Varget does get you of course is better temp stability, and if that's important for you then it may be worth the compromise (although I greatly prefer 8208 instead for similar temp stability and better velocity).
 
I loves me some 8208! I need to give Tac a shot though as I have an 8lb jug of it..@Yondering I'm assuming what your referring too as lever is Leverevolution? Where is a relatively safe starting point for that if you don't mind me asking? Thank you sir...
 
I loves me some 8208! I need to give Tac a shot though as I have an 8lb jug of it..@Yondering I'm assuming what your referring too as lever is Leverevolution? Where is a relatively safe starting point for that if you don't mind me asking? Thank you sir...
Seems like Lever is close to CFE 223 maybe a touch slower. They are not the same though. Charge will depend on bullet and COAL. It's a ball powder so you typically use more than an extruded powder.
I've shot between 25 and 26grs with 88gr ELDs loaded long. 26 is hot. Work up carefully. It is also very temp sensitive.
 
I loves me some 8208! I need to give Tac a shot though as I have an 8lb jug of it..@Yondering I'm assuming what your referring too as lever is Leverevolution? Where is a relatively safe starting point for that if you don't mind me asking? Thank you sir...

Yes sir, Lever is just short for Leverevolution powder.

What bullet are you wanting to use? I may have some loads developed well enough to share (mainly in the 65-75gr range). There is no published data for Lever in 223/5.56 that I know of, even though it's the top performer for speed, so it's important to be real comfortable with load development and reading pressure signs. It is somewhat similar to CFE223, but expect the top end charge weights to be a bit higher. It's also more forgiving at the top end than CFE223, in my experience.

Just a couple examples:

20" AR15 5.56 chamber
75 ELDM 2.355" OAL (cut mag, long OAL)
27.5gr Lever 2,952 fps avg @ ~45-50° F
fast load, but my barrel just didn't like that bullet at any depth

18" AR15, 223 Wylde chamber
75 BTHP (Hornady) 2.255"
27.0 Lever 2,940 fps @ ~40°
This one shoots well, and in my rifle is still safe on 80-90° days.

Both loads using LC brass and CCI #41 primers.

You must adjust the gas system for Lever in gas operated rifles, otherwise it'll give false pressure signs from being severely overgassed.

I do have a load that gave good speed with no pressure signs for a 20" (or 22"??) Tikka T3 with that 75 ELDM if I can find it in my notes, but I couldn't get that bullet to shoot well in that rifle either, with several powders and varied seating depths. Too bad, it'd be a sweet load if the barrel liked that bullet. I don't think it was able to spin it fast enough though. That one was doing 2,935 fps in August.

FWIW on temp sensitivity - with powders like Lever and TAC, in some rifles I'll have a load that always gets used at a particular time of year, like Oregon sage rat season, so the temp is pretty repeatable. In others, I'll usually find the velocity that corresponds to my preferred load, and adjust the charge weight to have a winter load and a summer load. Depending on the load that's usually 0.5-1.0gr difference, give or take a bit. Of course the ammo boxes get clearly labeled "Summer" and "Winter". I also don't shoot in extreme heat or cold very much though; the climate here is pretty moderate, so sometimes I just figure out a hot weather load and use it all year round if it's a short range setup like my home defense gun for example.

If you have a deep freezer large enough for a rifle, and a laser or meat probe thermometer, it's worth doing some hot vs cold temp testing. Even better if you repeat it at different times of the year; I found with several loads that Lever was not linear - velocity climbed quickly above ~60° F, but more or less flattened out below 40° F. Make sure to freeze the whole rifle and ammo when you test though, not just the ammo as some gunwriters have done - a warm rifle and frozen ammo is something you'd almost never encounter in actual cold weather, and it's not the same as if the barrel is cold too.
 
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Tikka's can shoot. Mine likes the 75 Amax with 2000MR really well. Now that the Amax is gone, I need to try the ELD.

You do need to be careful with these ball powders as they are more temp sensitive. TAC isn't terrible but I have seen a noticeable difference between a 70 degree and a 90 degree day.
 
Yup TAC is one of my favorites. But I had issues during the summer with my AR15with it. That was with 53 gr vmax's. I had equal success with H4895 and 77 SMK's as I did with TAC. I think I'd give H4895 a try for summer time loads for the 75 ELDM.