What are you trying to say by constent 6T/22?
1-6 is way to fast for regular lead bullets
- Thread starter Goofster
- Start date
1-6 is way to fast for regular lead bullets
I have zero issues shooting consistent, small groups past 200yd with my 20" Bartlein 1:16. Smallest groups past 300yd were with FGMM UltraMatch, R50 and CenterX lot tested.
I regularly shoot mine 300-500yd. I'm sorry but I've had zero accuracy or consistency issues at those distances and wind is the biggest factor. I don't by the needing anything other than 1:16 or longer barrels to be accurate past 200yd...
I've shot these distances through 15+ barrels now, all 1:16/1:16.5 from Bartlein, Krieger, Lilja, Benchmark, Green Mountain.... I tested a 22" and 24", gained nothing over 20".
200yd 20" Green Mountain 1:16
300yd - 8" round plate - 12.6mil elevation - holding 0.6 - 1.0 mil depending on wind
400yd 20" Bartlein 1:16
I regularly shoot mine 300-500yd. I'm sorry but I've had zero accuracy or consistency issues at those distances and wind is the biggest factor. I don't by the needing anything other than 1:16 or longer barrels to be accurate past 200yd...
I've shot these distances through 15+ barrels now, all 1:16/1:16.5 from Bartlein, Krieger, Lilja, Benchmark, Green Mountain.... I tested a 22" and 24", gained nothing over 20".
200yd 20" Green Mountain 1:16
300yd - 8" round plate - 12.6mil elevation - holding 0.6 - 1.0 mil depending on wind
400yd 20" Bartlein 1:16
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Your number of shots per group are too small for that to be conclusive or truely make a comparison with 1-12. But in all cases if I only shot that number of shots at those ranges my 1-12 would be better. 8" at 300 is not a very good group yet. I definitely would want to see under 6" for a 20 shot group.
Definitely agree wind is the main factor.
Definitely agree wind is the main factor.
That was a very windy day and have a matching video to show wind on those groups. I have some more groups around 0.5moa at 300yd I'll post up here shortly. Same gun, same ammo, no wind..
My number of shots are too small? Lmfao. I have over 40k+ rounds down 15 barrels just in the past 1.5yr while reviewing the RimX. My number of rounds down range tell me WAY more than someone telling me I need a faster twist barrel on the internet to shoot past 200yd. I have well over 7000rd down my RimX Krieger alone.
My bad, I meant to say 9T (twist), serves me right for also thinking of the gent testing Cutting Edge Bullets handloads in a 6T, while writing my questions.
I’ll edit my post, thanks
He's saying that 5 round groups are not an effective way of looking at consistency and that he personally will do 20 shot groups when checking ammo.
Easy bro there are some of us that have a lot more the 7k through our RimX and a lot more the 40k down range in the last 1.5 years.
If we were talking about 1 5 shot group that's one thing. I'm talking about 40k rounds over 15 barrels since I was sent one of the 1st RimX off the line for review and I'm still shooting it as of last month with the same results...
Hahaha. Thats 7k on 1 RimX barrel alone. 40k on the 15 or so barrels sent to me for review on the RimX alone. Read around a little bit, all those reviews and testing I did are documented here in my review threads.
Now you be easy, I see your relatively new around here. We don't need to get into a who shoots more thread. I only shoot my rimx at 300-500yd unless I'm lot testing or testing a new barrel sent to me. I know how my 1:16 perform at those distances and they don't disappoint.
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I sense this could go way wrong in a hurry. I would suggest doing some study into statistics. You can also go and shoot groups to compare for yourself. 1.5" 4 shot groups at 200 are not really that difficult to have happen. If you show me even 10 in 2" I'd be far more impressed.
I have the reviews and I've seen you around. Just because you shoot lots done not mean you understand statistics and how it plays out.
I have the reviews and I've seen you around. Just because you shoot lots done not mean you understand statistics and how it plays out.
Oh I fully understand and all you're tell me is that unless you're shooting in a 300-500yd tunnel, 20 shot groups are telling you what the wind is doing WAY more than your 12 twist is far superior to my 16.
Hell, my T1X and CCISV will do 5 out of 20 in a couple inches at 200. Probably 10-12 out of 20 inside 3”.
We would really like to see your 10-20 round groups like many of us shoot. It would be easy to show we are dumbasses....
I should clarify When doing comparisons at distance I only look at the vertical for this type of a comparison. Because yes wind. I often have wind here too. I've done comparison and if the wind is steady I have no difference in vertical group size from a straight up holding to 1+ mils of wind.
So I just went through all 7 pages of this thread and found 1 posted 300yd target that was about 3" or more.
I read lots of talk, but where are all these "20 shot tiny groups" that "all of you are posting." ????
I mean shit, you shoot way more than my measley 40krd in a year, I would expect to find endless targets across the Hide of small groups from fast twist 22lr barrels at 300yd and beyond
I've been saying it for a year now, all this talk of needing faster twist to shoot 22lr at distance but I find VERY LITTLE actual data, and targets posted here on SH. That's in the RimX thread or rimfire section in general.
Where's all that data?
And I want to clarify, I AM NOT trying to start a pissing contest. If you followed any of my threads, reviews or tests, I'm a data guy. Why do I find lots of talk but very little targets, accuracy tests with large sample sizes, lot testing targets, etc posted from fast twist 22lr?? I read lots of people saying you need them, they are better etc, but very little info to back that up posted.
I read lots of talk, but where are all these "20 shot tiny groups" that "all of you are posting." ????
I mean shit, you shoot way more than my measley 40krd in a year, I would expect to find endless targets across the Hide of small groups from fast twist 22lr barrels at 300yd and beyond
I've been saying it for a year now, all this talk of needing faster twist to shoot 22lr at distance but I find VERY LITTLE actual data, and targets posted here on SH. That's in the RimX thread or rimfire section in general.
Where's all that data?
And I want to clarify, I AM NOT trying to start a pissing contest. If you followed any of my threads, reviews or tests, I'm a data guy. Why do I find lots of talk but very little targets, accuracy tests with large sample sizes, lot testing targets, etc posted from fast twist 22lr?? I read lots of people saying you need them, they are better etc, but very little info to back that up posted.
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This clarifies your statements somewhat. You're only measuring vertical, not group size
Like many of us shoot?? Are you talking about you?? Lolol Hmmm, I just went through your 70 posts in 2+ years and funny, ask me how many 20rd 300-500yd groups I found you posted.
Tread lightly, you want to start a pissing contest we can do that.
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Yes I only look at vertical. I often have wind so I dont test on head or tail wind as that induces to much vertical. I stick to full value days and less then 1.5 mil wind.
I dont make a practice of posting all my targets. It would be a pain and because I do 20 shot groups most people will go "thats no good look at my awesome one off 3 shot group" I dont have the time to waste.
What I do is record my data into excel this lets me look at lots of data and compare very easy.
I dont know if this picture is clear but it is a selection of 5 or 6 different midgrade ammo that shot simular at 200 yards to compare the rate of group size increase at 300.
PLEASE NOTE this is NOT the best groups these rifles do but ammo types and lot numbers that shot simular vertical groups at 200 yards in BOTH rifles.
Edit. I dont calculate group SD at 50, 100 its too hard lol
I dont make a practice of posting all my targets. It would be a pain and because I do 20 shot groups most people will go "thats no good look at my awesome one off 3 shot group" I dont have the time to waste.
What I do is record my data into excel this lets me look at lots of data and compare very easy.
I dont know if this picture is clear but it is a selection of 5 or 6 different midgrade ammo that shot simular at 200 yards to compare the rate of group size increase at 300.
PLEASE NOTE this is NOT the best groups these rifles do but ammo types and lot numbers that shot simular vertical groups at 200 yards in BOTH rifles.
Edit. I dont calculate group SD at 50, 100 its too hard lol
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You're right, people are going to talk about anything you post, but you post enough data to back up your claims and the people that know what they are talking about will understand it.
The guys that post 1 small 3 shot group and say mine is better are the ones you ignore. They don't have a clue.
But you need to understand, when people talk and post and don't post the data to back it up, it's just hot air. Talk is cheap. I'd love to see your 20 shot groups at 300-500yd across various lots of ammo and types of ammo. Thats the info I'm looking for and haven't seen anyone post it to date for fast twist barrels
But until I a) experience those results myself, or b) see actual factual data, it's all just hot air to me.
I
I'll have atleast something so you can see I'm not blowing smoke
I dont save my targets anymore but I'll go back through and see what I can find in my pictures. I should be able to at least find some average pictures. It a personal rule of mine to not share my bests as average is what matters. I'll post tomorrow when I'm at my desk.
I'll have atleast something so you can see I'm not blowing smoke
I think perhaps you are the one coming on strong. Wasn’t it a 4 shot group you posted at 200? I do not pretend to shoot as well as either of you, and my gear certainly wouldn’t allow it if I could, but a couple years around here also is a poor representation for a whole life. I know what Rimfire 4 round groups vs 10 or 20 round groups look like because I’ve shot a lot of them. My average at 100 was 1.78” for 44 10 rnd groups for the first half of this year or so, mostly for testing and zeroing. My shooting volume is middle of the road, 19.5K Rimfire this year so far. At 200, vertical is around 9” and horizontal is usually under 3”. 300 is 16”vertical and 14” horizontal, with a factory T1X, CCISV, and 10+ round groups. Your 4 rnd group looks like my lucky 3 round group. An accomplished shooter such as yourself should easily be able to show me how it’s done. Especially since your rifle is high end.
My interest in this thread is because I’ve got a 1:12 sitting here, and some slightly more consistent ammo to test in it when I get it installed. My expectation/hope is to lower the vertical spread a bit at 200, and really tighten things up at 300. I’ve spent some time ringing the gong at 400, but it’s too unpredictable to be called a group. There is a lot of naysayers about 22LR barrels faster than 1:16, but about as many actual testers of them as those who can show good high volume groups at 300. I would appreciate seeing your results for 10 or 20 at 300.
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Got it, no posts, data, targets posted showing your fast twist 22lr is better. Just more talk. Remember, your the one that called me out and told me to post my 10 or 20 shot groups "like the rest of us do." But in reality you've posted or shown us nothing.
And you zero in on the 200yd target. I believe I posted some random targets at 200, 300 and 400yd...
But guess what, I'll be sure to shoot and post some 10 and 20 shot targets and video shooting them at 300yd the next time I have my RimX out.
Here is a video showing the wind when I shot this 300yd target. I'd say I was damn consistent at 300yd in that wind that was switching and gusting up to 20mph
Now that you edited and added targets, what the hell are those targets proving?? Seriously? Those are your targets to tell me fast twist 22lr barrels are superior?? 8.5" verticle at 200yd???
I’m looking for data either way. My targets prove I shoot, that’s about it. I don’t think those were my best but that’s what I’ve found pics of. You are a pro with lots of experience and top end gear. I figured you would be teaching me something about shooting 22 long distance. I guess you’ve taught me more about yourself.
I find CCI sv and federal target average 8" vertical at 200 in a couple 16s. Never bothered to shoot them out of a 12.
Mid grade ammo runs 4ish on average
Good stuff sub 3"
My typical test session is 2 10 shot groups at 50 2 10 shot at 100 2 20 shot at 200 1 20 shot at 300. This gives me 100 rounds. I do multiple sessions per ammo. This lets me have standard testing procedure.
If I'm going to test 500 I will just setup for that as its pretty time consuming gathering all the data at 500. I only have one big plate so lots of back and forth.
♂
Mid grade ammo runs 4ish on average
Good stuff sub 3"
My typical test session is 2 10 shot groups at 50 2 10 shot at 100 2 20 shot at 200 1 20 shot at 300. This gives me 100 rounds. I do multiple sessions per ammo. This lets me have standard testing procedure.
If I'm going to test 500 I will just setup for that as its pretty time consuming gathering all the data at 500. I only have one big plate so lots of back and forth.
♂ I don't get sub moa 10 shot groups at 200 yards, but the 12T stacking of rounds is pretty impressive -
Here is another 300yd group in the snow 28F. Very little vertical at all. FGMM UltraMatch shot off a high bench, Bartlein 1:16 standing, Harris Bipod, PU 3D Rear bag, Rugged Oculus 22. Ive never shot 20rd groups past 100yd but its hard for me to see why I need a fast twist barrel with results like this.
Youve done nothing but blow hot air and post shity targets that tells me nothing about fast twist barrels being superior.
I've never seen federal GM UM available up here. Seem to shoot very nicely from what people have said.
That looks pretty consistent.
It's been discontinued. RWS was making it before they discontinued. That's why I shoot lots of R50 these days as it's the closest I've found at distance to the good old amazing Ultramatch. I had cases of it but shot the last of it doing the RimX barrel reviews and testing. Stuff shot lights out
I can’t see why you need one either. Maybe they are all hype. I don’t have the $$ to test a 1:16 side by side with a fast twist so I watch results from people that do.
Here are some pictures I found. They are in no particular order and most I wouldn't know what ammo was used. As I explained before I enter everything into excel and done.
This is more as proof that if I'm talking its because I've done it on paper and its all carefully recorded. Your not going to find me spouting off about a few groups I popped on steel and measured the ES with a measuring tape and I think I remember it was so big. I record the group ES and calculate the vertical SD for all my groups past 100 yds. Recording both lets me see if a lot shot very small groups plus a flier or if it was a even dispersion through the whole ES. If you didnt do this then you would need to save all your targets and look them up to know. Group SD is my main criteria then ES as secondary consideration.
the papers with 1 group per is typically 300ish yards papers with 2 or 3 per are 200ish yards. some are noted on the paper. 36" steel plate is at 520 yards. I didnt find many mostly from me experimenting with the Long Shot camera and all with Eley contact. (my main practice ammo) in other words nothing very good...
This is more as proof that if I'm talking its because I've done it on paper and its all carefully recorded. Your not going to find me spouting off about a few groups I popped on steel and measured the ES with a measuring tape and I think I remember it was so big. I record the group ES and calculate the vertical SD for all my groups past 100 yds. Recording both lets me see if a lot shot very small groups plus a flier or if it was a even dispersion through the whole ES. If you didnt do this then you would need to save all your targets and look them up to know. Group SD is my main criteria then ES as secondary consideration.
the papers with 1 group per is typically 300ish yards papers with 2 or 3 per are 200ish yards. some are noted on the paper. 36" steel plate is at 520 yards. I didnt find many mostly from me experimenting with the Long Shot camera and all with Eley contact. (my main practice ammo) in other words nothing very good...
Interesting to note the 520yd Steel has circular bullet splash, no even marginal keyhole or oblong spray indicating the slug hit anyway but nose first. I’m guessing that indicates stability.
Even at 700 its circular. They have not lost stability and between the 16 and 12 there is no visual difference. But this doesn't mean that the 12s increased stability doesn't help. Simply that the 16 hasnt gone haywire
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears you're plotting the shots and using the x,y point data? And, then calculating the Standard Deviation from the y-axis coordinates?
If so, there's another statistical metric that may be useful for you called the "Statistical Slope" if you use a chronograph and can match each shot's velocity with its x,y coordinates.
Come to think of it, there's also another tool that might be useful in the shooting disciplines you guys are interested in.
You could use CEP (Circular Error Probability) to generate hit probabilities for circle diameters for each distance you're shooting, if you gather a lot of data and carefully record it in Excel. Of course you'd need to be somewhat familiar with writing algorithms to accomplish it.
Just a few thoughts and nothing more, but I fear "proving" anything in this thread may require a lot more data along with more robust statistical treatments to do so.
Landy
@HuskerP7M8 Yes you are correct. I plot out and calculate from there. I stopped plotting the x axis to save time now. Do you see a reason to use the X if Im not testing inside?
Matching velocity to POI is in the works. This was my reason for testing the Long shot camera. Initial testing shows no consistent results. So far it looks like Ogive length is more of a indication of how well a ammo will work then velocity spreads. In general. E.g. rifle will prefer a short or long ammo. I have a bunch of ammo serial numbered and ogive length, weight, etc recorded. I want to track velocity and POI see what I find.... probably nothing but if I do the testing well its warm out it still will be fun!
My goal is to investigate positive compensation more. I have far to many indications that its real to ignore it and not test further.
I considered doing CEP but I wanted to eliminate the Horizontal. Reduce the impact of wind messing with comparison. I only test with near full value wind 75% or more. I know you can get some vertical from cross wind but if I stick to conditions with less then 3 mpr variation its pretty good. I'm all open here so no funny winds.
Hey I keep learning things and have discovered not everything is as expected. I guess we expected that lol.
There would be other ways to look at the vertical spread as well but I'm not sure it would be significantly more useful. If I use SD and calculate expected ES with a 98% confidence interval my groups all fit with in the expected range. But I'm still learning.
Matching velocity to POI is in the works. This was my reason for testing the Long shot camera. Initial testing shows no consistent results. So far it looks like Ogive length is more of a indication of how well a ammo will work then velocity spreads. In general. E.g. rifle will prefer a short or long ammo. I have a bunch of ammo serial numbered and ogive length, weight, etc recorded. I want to track velocity and POI see what I find.... probably nothing but if I do the testing well its warm out it still will be fun!
My goal is to investigate positive compensation more. I have far to many indications that its real to ignore it and not test further.
I considered doing CEP but I wanted to eliminate the Horizontal. Reduce the impact of wind messing with comparison. I only test with near full value wind 75% or more. I know you can get some vertical from cross wind but if I stick to conditions with less then 3 mpr variation its pretty good. I'm all open here so no funny winds.
Hey I keep learning things and have discovered not everything is as expected. I guess we expected that lol.
There would be other ways to look at the vertical spread as well but I'm not sure it would be significantly more useful. If I use SD and calculate expected ES with a 98% confidence interval my groups all fit with in the expected range. But I'm still learning.
Don’t know if this will help at all, but here goes:
I was testing some ammo through a chrony at 15 ft, target at 100yds
I fired a group of 10+ shots, adjusted scope to center, then started I believe it was 5 shot groups on a 25bull benchrest target. After a short while I could predict the velocity before reading it, as certain impact points were ALWAYS at a certain velocity. I haven’t repeated this test at long range yet. It would be nice to know if EVERY shot location was documented according to speed if we would see repeatability.
At 200 I did some preliminary not really testing but observation to see on what position of importance it would be for testing purposes.
I used a lot of Eley Force that I was getting 70-90 fps ES on 50+ round batches. Observation was that I had no consistency. I'd have a 1153 hit high then a 1120 right beside a 1170 would go low. Then the 1125 would go low.
interestingly I had 4-4.5" 20 shot groups at 200 yards with that lot# explain that with velocity spreads of 70+ anyhow I shelved velocity and put it in a later details not a major factor. Now this was not scientific in anyway just a bit of general observation and if/ when I test with Tenex I may find something useful.I should say in broad strokes ES is a factor when comparing different lots of the same ammo type.
This is a good point.At 200 I did some preliminary not really testing but observation to see on what position of importance it would be for testing purposes.
I used a lot of Eley Force that I was getting 70-90 fps ES on 50+ round batches. Observation was that I had no consistency. I'd have a 1153 hit high then a 1120 right beside a 1170 would go low. Then the 1125 would go low.
I should say in broad strokes ES is a factor when comparing different lots of the same ammo type.
While actual MV can frequently explain POI, it is not a guarantee of where the bullet strikes. There are factors other than MV that can contribute to where the bullet will impact on the target. These factors can vary in degree and they can cause a slower bullet to strike higher than a faster one (and vise versa). They can also cause bullets to strike to the left or right of where the velocity alone would predict.
No doubt these factors can include an offset center of gravity, a non-uniform or non-concentric heel, or other seating issue. None of these can be seen in ammo before shooting it. The only way to have ammo with bullets that fly as they should is to use better grades of ammo, although that in itself doesn't assure MV matches POI -- but it improves the odds. For example, SK RM will be more likely to have these issues than Lapua CX or M+.
Absolutely agree. Buying better ammo significantly increases odds of precision.
My goal starting out was to find the 90% gains. Our game doesnt benefit from the detail that BR does.
High quality ammo is one of these 90%. Now this brings up a question. I have one rifle that so far I can not get to shoot high end ammo better then midgrade.
The question in my mind is can I build a rifle specifically to shoot Tenex or maybe Lapua best. Do BR guys build around a typical a ammo brand?
My goal starting out was to find the 90% gains. Our game doesnt benefit from the detail that BR does.
High quality ammo is one of these 90%. Now this brings up a question. I have one rifle that so far I can not get to shoot high end ammo better then midgrade.
The question in my mind is can I build a rifle specifically to shoot Tenex or maybe Lapua best. Do BR guys build around a typical a ammo brand?
I designed my 22LR reamer specifically around Lapua/SK ammo and it shoots it VERY well.
Would you expect your chamber to shoot Midus+ better then Tenex say 75% of the time?
As noted by a previous poster, the chamber design can be an important factor here. There are chambers made with one make or another of ammo in mind.
A Lapua-friendly chamber is one such as the "Nevius" chamber (designed by Kevin Nevius). The Vudoo V22 repeater, for example, has the "Ravage" chamber which is also designed for Lapua ammo. There are also Eley ammo-based chambers, including the Eley EPS and similar chambers, some of which are on some Lilja barrels.
Currently and in recent years, Lapua ammo has reportedly generally performed more satisfactorly than Eley.
It's worth noting that a so-called Lapua chamber is able to shoot other ammos well, because they can and do. In addition, these chambers aren't designed for any one particular variety of Lapua -- be it CX, M+, or X-Act -- because each of these all begin as the same until they are graded. Finally, it should be kept in mind that just because a chamber may be designed for a particular ammo, doesn't mean that it will shoot all lots of that make of ammo well. Lot testing must always be used to determine the best lots of any variety of ammo.
Considering what you're trying to accomplish and the conditions you're shooting in, it's probably not necessary to record the x-axis SD. However, since it's so easy to calculate/record, and you never know when it might be valuable in the future, a dataholic like me records and tracks some 50 different metrics in my custom spreadsheets.
A brief comment on Positive Compensation:
A piece of cake and so easy to do with CF at 600 yds to 1000 yds, a monkey could do it! RF is another story though and I've found it to be nearly impossible to accomplish without impractical large sample sizes at the 50yd/50M distance. I highly suspect it's doable at 100yds to ELR distances, but my ballistic tunnel isn't long enough.
I did set-up the experimental design for such testing at extended distances many years ago but it requires 2 very good rifles shot at the same time with a buddy of mine shooting the 2nd rifle, a minimum of 5 flags with 4 Beggs wind probes for a 100 yd distance, and video camera footage of the flags/probes I can edit to cut out the still images within 1/30 of a second of the trigger being pulled on both rifles.
It's actually a pretty simple test, but it requires quite a bit of time and a lot of number crunching I can't seem to find the time for. Someday maybe?
Landy
My chamber specifically? Yes 100% of the time. It doesn't like Eley Tenex from the tenex I've tested, I had 2 cases of it. No matter how much I wanted it to shoot, it just didn't shoot close to the Lapua/Ultramatch/R50
I have a Bentz chamber Green Mountain the Tenex hammers in for comparison....
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