Just picked up a 25 creed I had built with a gain twist bartlein barrel on an impact action. I’ll be using the components I’ve been able to find online, so Peterson srp brass and berger 135gn lr hybrids with H4350. Fairly new to reloading and this is my first go with a gain twist barrel, should I expect anything different loading for it?
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Nope, let us know how the gain twist barrel performs tho.
I don't think the OP will mind me hijacking his thread since he's banned... I guess I could start a new thread since he was using 131 blackjacks and I'm using 135 bergers, but...
Anyway, shot yesterday initial load development. Using Peterson srp brass, H4350, CCI 450s, and Berger 135s.
Rifle is an Impact action with 25" bartlein gain twist barrel (8.0-7.25) with an Ace brake, mounted in a Foundation stock, all work done by Wildcat Precision.
Shot 3 rounds of each load, right now just finding a stable load then I'll work on seating depth for accuracy. All rounds fired over magnetospeed v3 but I did have a couple errors so some data is missing.
So, with this data, I'm leaning towards working up a load around 43.2 grains H4350 and playing with seating depth. I was getting decent cratering at 43.8 grains but no other pressure signs. This test was just over a chrono with the same poa, just getting numbers for now. Once I have group size info I'll post that too.
I am pretty new to working up precision loads so if I'm screwing something up, feel free to point it out!
Anyway, shot yesterday initial load development. Using Peterson srp brass, H4350, CCI 450s, and Berger 135s.
Rifle is an Impact action with 25" bartlein gain twist barrel (8.0-7.25) with an Ace brake, mounted in a Foundation stock, all work done by Wildcat Precision.
Shot 3 rounds of each load, right now just finding a stable load then I'll work on seating depth for accuracy. All rounds fired over magnetospeed v3 but I did have a couple errors so some data is missing.
| MIN | MAX | AVG | SD | |
| 40.0 | 2742 | 2788 | 2764 | 23.0 |
| 40.2 | 2764 | 2777 | 2768 | 7.2 |
| 40.4 | 2772 | 2781 | 2777 | 4.5 |
| 40.6 | ---- | ---- | ---- | ---- |
| 40.8 | 2791 | 2820 | 2804 | 14.7 |
| 41.0 | 2804 | 2828 | 2818 | 12.6 |
| 41.2 | 2822 | 2836 | 2829 | 7.0 |
| 41.4 | 2844 | 2874 | 2855 | 16.5 |
| 41.6 | 2855 | 2868 | 2859 | 7.2 |
| 41.8 | 2858 | 2906 | 2875 | 26.8 |
| 42.0 | 2870 | 2910 | 2890 | 10.0 |
| 42.2 | 2893 | 2913 | 2901 | 7.0 |
| 42.4 | 2918 | 2929 | 2922 | 6.0 |
| 42.6 | 2932 | 2952 | 2942 | 14.1 |
| 42.8 | ---- | ---- | ---- | ---- |
| 43.0 | 2966 | 2981 | 2972 | 7.9 |
| 43.2 | 2971 | 2976 | 2973 | 2.4 |
| 43.4 | 2991 | 3022 | 3010 | 15.0 |
| 43.6 | 3003 | 3015 | 3009 | 6.1 |
| 43.8 | 3016 | 3020 | 3018 | 2.0 |
So, with this data, I'm leaning towards working up a load around 43.2 grains H4350 and playing with seating depth. I was getting decent cratering at 43.8 grains but no other pressure signs. This test was just over a chrono with the same poa, just getting numbers for now. Once I have group size info I'll post that too.
I am pretty new to working up precision loads so if I'm screwing something up, feel free to point it out!
43.2 grains at 2,970 FPS sounds way hot with that bullet weight and cartridge. Often new brass doesn't show nasty pressure signs for a few firings. I would be looking for a load at 2,850 or below if I was wanting consistency in the long term.
What i have seen with the bergers and black jacks is, more speed doesn't really help that much at all with wind deflection. The monster BC for weight of bullet does the heavy lifting in that department. 2950 vs 2850 is only about .1 more of wind deflection at 1k yards. The over pressure possibilities and abuse on your brass isn't worth .1 of wind at 1k. Im shooting them at 2767 and loving it.
How many rounds down tube when you started?
Couldn't agree more!
New barrel
After the barrel speeds up and your brass is all once fired, 43.2 gr will be sticking your bolt hard, or worse.
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You still running a 25cm decent amount? Or mainly 6mm for matches?
Toying with idea of 135 Berger and 25cm.
I’m switching from 131’s to 135’s for matches. Alpha brass 25CM 42.1 gave me 2835fps node. Used to run 131’s at 41.8grs 2915ish fps
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This is an entirely subjective question, but recoil compared to say a 6cm running 3-3100 (Hornady factory for example)?
Obviously it’s going to recoil more than my 6gt. Just curious.
Umm it’s more, but my 6CM also weighs like 23lbs vs my 25CM is like 18-20lbs. But it’s not as much as my 6.5CM with 140’s. Honestly I don’t have a problem spotting shots and seeing trace with the 131’s in an 18ish lbs gun.
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Waiting on barrel. Any idea who might have a reamer in stock?
I really don’t. I wish. Blackjack seems to be semi unresponsive so I’m not sure what’s going on on their end of stuff. I know the 131’s is a Sierra thing, but I’d figure they’d still stock blanks and reamers until the 131’s come back.
I got out of 25 caliber for matches because of inconsistencies in the available projectiles. That was before Berger came out with the 135. I kind of wish I still had a barrel to try some. I've used 6 Dasher for the last 3 years.
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I think I’m going to give it a go with the Berger. Have it as a backup in case rifle goes down. Or if the wind forecast is nutty.
I gave up on getting anymore blackjacks and switched to bergers and I'm satisfied with them and they are available.
I run my 6 creed at 3130fps and my 25 creed at 2920fps. Both rifles weigh almost identical. 1” difference in barrel length, same contour, same brake. I also have a 260 running the 140’s at 2850fps. The 25 creed comfortably rides in between on recoil and smokes them in the wind. Still easy to spot hits and see trace on a 15ish lbs rifle. I enjoy the 25 the most in comp and hunting. Seems to help clean up where I fudge a little in comp, and absolutely hammers deer sized game. Going to build a second 25 (25x47) slightly more dedicated for comp in the 18-22lbs range and either lighten my creed for hunting or completely swap things around and do a 25 saum for hunting
Bugholes chambered my 25cm, but that was with a blackjack reamer…..
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This is good info, thanks.
For comps, I’ll be running 20-22lb rifle. And somewhere in the 2850-2950 range with 135 Berger.
So, I think even on stages where you back off the rifle a bit, shouldn’t be an issue seeing everything.
I don’t have too many wind issues with 109 Berger going 2800-2850. But I won’t say no to a couple tenths of wind that turn burning one off the edge to a edge hit.
I was wondering that, I still have about 2k blackjacks and have started stocking up on Bergers. I’ve heard some people say the Berger’s didn’t shoot good with the blackjack reamer…. I couldn’t see why they wouldn’t.
The blackjack reamer is unremarkable in that its made like pretty much all match reamers are today. A freebore diameter thats .0005” over bullet diameter, and a 1.5 degree lead angle. The rest of the body is saami.
Mine shoots both bullets fine. If someone is having issues with the 135, id guess they were running the 131’s hard, and switched with little or no charge weight change with the 135 thinking the extra 4 grains wouldn’t mean much. Thats a mistake. The 135 pressures up more than the +4 grains would suggest. I backed off a full grain from my 131 load.
The 135, like most other bergers have a pressure ring at the back of rhe bullet. From memory theyre .2572-.2573. The 131, like most sierra made bullets, dont have that. They're .2569-.2570. The numbers are from memory. This likely contributes to the pressure. They probably have a longer bearing surface as well.
Agreed 100%.
I use the same charge weight with both bullets but I'm running them relatively slow to begin with. 41gr for both yield low SDs and ESs.
Some may have heard the story on the podcast of how load development went for the bergers. Just to see what's what with the bergers, I pulled 5 loaded 131g rounds that was loaded for 1 barrel, put the 135s on top, not even moving my seating die from the 131 load, screwed my other barrel on the AI and the bergers shot just as tight and with equally good numbers as the blackjack load in the other barrel. Done. Lol. Rarely do things that easy work out for me.
I’m attaching a load data sheet Berger sent me. I hope it helps. I built 2 25 CMs. 1 heavy PRS type rig & 1 NRL hunter type with CF barrel. I have less than 100 rds on both (built a 22 GT…..it’s getting all my attention). I haven’t loaded as heavy as you have with the h4350 & am getting speeds with the Berger table. I’ve switched to RL26 in the lightweight hunter & plan on trying h1000 also. I’ll post results when/if I ever get back on the 25s. Good luck…..
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That information is much appreciated.
I posted this under the Hornady 134 thread, but I figured it deserved to be here too
I just ran the 134s, 10 rounds each, through my AI 25 Creedmoor barrel, DT 25 Creedmoor barrel, and DT 25 PRC barrel. Accuracy was ddecent My DT 25 Creedmoor barrel seemed to like them. I need to play with seating depth on the PRC and AI to tighten up the group. I also need to lower the charge weights. These were the loads for my 131s, so velocities were pretty high.
I just ran the 134s, 10 rounds each, through my AI 25 Creedmoor barrel, DT 25 Creedmoor barrel, and DT 25 PRC barrel. Accuracy was ddecent My DT 25 Creedmoor barrel seemed to like them. I need to play with seating depth on the PRC and AI to tighten up the group. I also need to lower the charge weights. These were the loads for my 131s, so velocities were pretty high.
You got that creed load smokin!
Good numbers. I have 2 25 CMs. Both are made with the new Bartlein Mod400 steel. One is a 26” M24 SS. The other is a 24” M24 carbon fiber. I can’t get the speeds I see posted on the Internet with H4350. My barrels look like Berger was using them as thier test barrels when they did thier SAAMI pressure testing. I have a lab radar & a mag v3.
Ive switched to rl26 for the lightweight with the CF barrel to make power factor for NRL. I’m shooting some tomorrow along with a 22 GT, & a 6 bra. I’ll post the #’s I get with the RL26 though it’s a light load. The barrel only has 50-60 rounds on it. I usually shoot the 1st 100 - 150 with a light load. The accuracy with the h4350 is crazy good. I’ll probably stick with it on the PRS rig. I have a spare 26” 257 M24 Bartlein in my safe. I’ve discussed building a 25 PRC with it. On an Impact S/A I’m pretty sure I’ll have to shove some bearing area in the case to fit mag length per my measurements.
Ive switched to rl26 for the lightweight with the CF barrel to make power factor for NRL. I’m shooting some tomorrow along with a 22 GT, & a 6 bra. I’ll post the #’s I get with the RL26 though it’s a light load. The barrel only has 50-60 rounds on it. I usually shoot the 1st 100 - 150 with a light load. The accuracy with the h4350 is crazy good. I’ll probably stick with it on the PRS rig. I have a spare 26” 257 M24 Bartlein in my safe. I’ve discussed building a 25 PRC with it. On an Impact S/A I’m pretty sure I’ll have to shove some bearing area in the case to fit mag length per my measurements.
Yeah, far too fast for my taste. I didn't have any noticeable signs of pressure, but it felt quite faster than I expected. I'll time it down a little, get them into the low 2900 range and be content. I'm OK with the PRC velocities, but that's how far I've had it for years
