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260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I know it can be formed from 308 Win., but I imagine there are cases that are probably closer and more ideal.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apache kid</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can definately push the 260 faster, but you can get equal performance from the 6.5creedmore with better barrel life and better (factory)brass.</div></div>

I would have to strongly disagree with that.

The only way you will get equal performance from the CM is to up it's pressure by a significant amount. Do that and you will lower it's throat life than that of a 260.
There is no getting around that.

Shooting 26" barrels for both the CM & 260 and reaching the same speed. The 260 will reach that same speed at a lower pressure and hence better throat/barrel life.

If I want to shoot the 260 at the same pressure as a CM I will always be faster just because the 260 will always have a larger capacity hull.
Barrel life will be no different.


As far as (factory) brass, all brass is factory and Horny brass holds nothing special over Remington brass. And, like i said and do. I can easily neck up Lapua 243 brass to 260, it's as easy as a stroke of handle. Lapua is the better of any brass that I have ever used.

If you are dumping the 260 for a Creed you just took a step backwards.

</div></div>

Notice I said equal performance, not speed.
260 at 500yds: 139 scenar @ 2820
yds drop MOA Mil wind in MOA MIL
500 45" 8.50 2.5mil | 12" 2.25 0.7mil

6.5 at 500yds 140Amax @ 2820
yds drop MOA MIL wind in MOA MIL
500 46" 8.75 2.5mil | 13" 2.50 0.7mil

and at 1000yds, 260 is 7.4mil and the 6.5 creedmore is 7.7mil
To me, same performance. Oh yeah barrel life is 40-50% better with the CM!!

I disagree with taking a step backwards, but I will respect our disagreement. </div></div>

I have tried all sorts of 6.5 cartridges based on 22-250 brass and 308 brass and there is ZEROOOO chance that a 6.5 CN is getting 40%-50% better bbl life than a 260! I repeat...ZERO! Do I need to say it again? I have gone through many 6.5 bbls and NONE of the 6.5 cartridges baed on 22-250 length brass got much more than 200-400 rounds more bbl life. If you want to compare a STOUT...read.. (bbl burning) load in the 260 and a mild load in the 6.5 CM, then you may get significantly better bbbl life, but run them both at the same pressure and similar speed and it aint happening. Ask my wallet.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I'd say the chances that the superior case design of the Creedmoor can torch a throat like the old .260 is pretty poor.

The case on the .260 looks pretty close to optimal to produce barrel heat.

How much % cooler is the Creedmoor? Who knows?

65shootout.jpg
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Chris,
AMEN an well said. There is a "Theory" that the longer neck or 30 degree shoulder "MAY" promote better barrel life but with both being equal I would be inclined to agree with you.

I am on my 4th barrel for 260s an went through a couple of 6.5x284 barrels an guess what they have a sharp shoulder an they burn barrels at a high rate. I also have a 6.5x55 that I am only shooting with a mild load of H4350 and I already have a rough throat in it. (Which concerns me)

The 6.5x55 was going to be my answer to better barrel life between the 260 and the 6.5x284 but this may not prove true. Both my 260 and my 6.5x55 are very accurate .5moa and under to 1000yd for 3 shot groups. I shot a 3.5" @ 1000yds with the 260 the other night and a 4.75" with the 6.5x55. Whats not to love!!!!

Barrel life is more a factor of "HOW HOT" you get it when shooting it rather than rounds down the barrel. I junked a 260 barrel out in less than 1200rds shooting matches where the barrel would get so hot you couldn't even touch it and shooting in 100+ degree heat. Next barrel went close to 3000rds before it went south but didn't abuse it in competition either.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

So, there is really very little difference in case design between the two cartridges in question, but there is a significant difference in case capacity.

Got it. Thanks.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but there is a significant difference in case capacity.

</div></div>

Actually there isn't a significant difference in capacity between the .260 and 6.5 Creedmoor.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Once you account for the bullet shank going into the 260 case, the usable capacity is probably very close.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Guys this is like arguing over which is best Ford or Chevy. You pick anyone of the three an you will be happy. They are all great rounds and you just can't go wrong with any one of them. I would not feel I was at a disadvantage to one or the other.

I started off with the 260 so just stayed with it. I would go with a CM or a 6.5x47 in a heartbeat and I am sure I would be just as happy with either of those as I am with my 260s.

I know a lot of you shoot the 140s in yours but I would suggest trying the 123s or 130s I feel its the ideal bullet for this case. I have tried them all!!!
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I shoot the factory 140 AMAX load in my 6.5 Creedmoor because I like it at longer ranges better than the 120 AMAX and it shoots great. Don't see a need to change yet. I did handload for a little bit but it didn't seem worth it.
 
Re: 6.5 Creedmoor Video

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X3M Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Build a 260 Ackley Improved and go have fun!
Here's what I would build in order of preference:
260 AI
6.5X47 Lapua
260 Rem.
6.5 CM

-X3M </div></div>

Curious of this pecking order...

In regards to 6.5x47 being your second, and CM being your last, why so? The cases are so similar, I'm having trouble understanding why you would champion one over the other?
 
Re: 6.5 Creedmoor Video

Rob,
I probably didn't push mine as fast as some of you guys do. I was pushing the AMAXs at around the 2750 to 2775 range. They shot great but my gun seems to really like the 123s better. Its been a lot more consistant since I changed to the 123s.

I am shooting the 123s @ 2975 so they are a lot flatter an do as well if not better for wind drift over what I was shooting with the AMAXs.

All of my 6.5s loved the 140AMAX even my 6.5x284s but I have not been able to get my 260 to shoot the 120 AMAX and that really disappoints me. I was hoping they would shoot as well as the 140s had. Its probably just this barrel does not care for them.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A sharper 30° shoulder and aggressive body taper allow the 6.5 Creedmoor to deliver higher velocities than other 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges. And yet it operates at standard 308 Winchester pressures, thus increasing barrel and case life. Coupled with these velocities and these bullets, Hornady has developed a round that is flat shooting, wind defying and extremely accurate. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the ultimate match cartridge.</div></div>

You forgot to mention that it needs a 28" barrel to make any of this happen. To match 260 Rem loads in a shorter barrel you will have to up it's pressures then you lose your supposedly better barrel life.

Like was said, the 6.5x284 has a 35 degree shoulder, boy, it should even get better throat life than a 30 degree case!

The more I read about the the magic mojo of the CM I realize it's a monkey see monkey do cartridge. Except I ain't doing it.

It offers nothing to a bolt rifle user that the 260 already does and can do better.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Does anyone have{edit: ALL-meaning body, shoulder/height, base, taper sh. angle} the measurements of each case? 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Rem, and 6.5x47 Lapua (Swiss?)
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You forgot to mention that it needs a 28" barrel to make any of this happen. To match 260 Rem loads in a shorter barrel you will have to up it's pressures then you lose your supposedly better barrel life.</div></div>

AK,

You seem to be particularly hostile toward the 6.5 Creedmoor. Can you explain how the .260 outperforms the 6.5 Creedmoor by such a wide margin when they are so similar in most folks opinions?

Thanks.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

The 260 and CM are so close you can't tell the difference in performance. The 260 case has a 54gr H20 capacity and the CM is 52 to 53grs. The 260s body is .039 longer an the body diam of the CM is +.006 wider.

Both will perform on equal levels given equal barrels an pressures.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I'm with you Raptor99.

I'm not sure where I read it but I've also seen that the Creedmoor is .5gr H2O less than the .260.

I just wonder how the Creedmoor comes up so short in performance to the .260 that they need a 28" barrel just to hang with the boys.

Yet somehow even with all this reduced performance and superior case design, they have absolutely no improvement in barrel life!

Just doesn't seem to add up to me. That's all. Unless you figure in that you can't believe everything you read on the internet.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I just wonder how the Creedmoor comes up so short in performance to the .260 that they need a 28" barrel just to hang with the boys.

</div></div>

Doesn't need a 28" barrel but that is what is used to get the velocity on the box with the factory load and the lower pressure. I have loaded the 140s to 2870fps with 43grns of H4350 and no pressure signs in my 28" barrel and if you used that load in a 24" barrel I am sure it will still be over 2800fps. Will there be more pressure than the factory loads? Yes but if you want to use a short barrel there is always a trade off somewhere if you still want longer barrel velocities no matter what the round.

The 28" barrel only comes into play with factory loads. Shoot the factory loaded ammunition in a shorter barrel and you will lose some velocity as you would with any load that is set up for a particular barrel length.

I guess with the current short barreled rifle craze this is a problem for some but I have no problems running around sniper comps with my 28" barrel. People get short 20" rifles and then hang 8" cans off them. What's that add up to?
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Rob01,

Not to get off the 6.5/260 track, why'd you swap from the 243 to the 6.5, weren't you getting 2900 fps or so out of the Dtacs with a .585 BC with the 243? Was it simply that there was match grade factory ammo in the 6.5?
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Actually I was getting about 3000fps out of the 115s but I would rather be able to use factory ammo and spend more time shooting and less time reloading. Still got the .243 though. It's a good shooter and not going anywhere
wink.gif


Also the 6.5 Creedmoor only gave up .1-.2 mil more wind than the .243 at 1000 and the wind is more what I worry about than trajectory. The .243 is about 1 mil flatter shooting than the 6.5 at 1000. For the amount of UKD I shoot it's not a problem shooting a round that isn't as flat shooting as the .243. Both are much better than the .308.

Been running the 6.5 Creedmoor for a year now and I have compete confidence in the round. Shot it in 5 comps and it has 4 wins and a 9th place.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> People get short 20" rifles and then hang 8" cans off them. What's that add up to? </div></div>

28 inches???
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Wise ass
wink.gif
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Jim Carmichael is credited (possibly incorrectly) with birthing the .260 Panther in a quest for a decent shooting cartridge with minimal recoil for youth and the ladies. Works just fine for me too, as the .260 Rem.

Also produced in that search was the .260 Bobcat, which is a necked up 250/3000 Savage.

Both chamberings utilize existing cases with .473" diameter bases.

The .260 Bobcat has about 10gr less powder capacity than the 6.5CM. Although not my choice for LR, I think it could be an interestng switch-barrel chambering for SR/MR shooting, possibly utilizing a 120gr Nosler ballistic Tip.

Likewise, for similar applications, the .3000 Savage interests me as a .30cal selection. I think this might be an interesting cartridge using the new 135gr SMK. I had considered the 7.62X39 briefly, but decided the cartridge base diameter could be problematic.

Greg
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

.300 Savage? That case has been necked up and down with fantastic results. P.O. Ackley actually said of the original caliber cases he improved that case (edit: {the .250-300 to .250 AI} gave the most improvement. It's been necked all the way down to .17 and up to .375". For shooting long range it (edit: {the .300 Savage} will push out a 168 or 175 gr. bullet just fine.

For all intents and purposes the .300 Savage will do what the .308 will. The .308 was born of the Savage .300. The main changes were decrease shoulder angle from 30 deg. (.300 Sav) to 20 deg. (.308). Which added length and added neck length. Otherwise the bodies hold almost the same amount of powder. Remember the .300 Savage case does not have the case taper that the .250-3000 does. The 30 deg. shoulder also burns powder way more efficiently.

As for the .260 Bobcat, try running 123 Scenars through it. It gets to 1k just fine...and beyond. It'll push them to 2800 without a hitch. Even if you only drive them to 2700, you've still got plenty to get you to 1k.

FWIW, a lot of the current fad of efficient cases are taken from the Savage .250-3000 case that have been improved.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Basically, my game has changed from 1000yd F Class to our Club's own hybrid FV200 COF and target. So LR capabiities are a matter of overkill at the moment. I like the 6.5, and have this very heavy but short .30 cal barrel blank, and I'm looking for an MR/SR chambering on a .473" diameter bolt face. As for the .260 Bobcat, I'm sitting on about 600 Win .22-250 cases and no rifle to shoot them, so a neckup would be a logical gambit. The .30cal blank's rifling is not high quality, but the FV200 matches are fun matches, so I'm not looking for a BR Meisterslayer apparatus either. I'm shooting .223 now, and soon switching to .222. The 6.5 and .30 could be non-punishing fun guns, and remember, bigger holes cut more lines. And then, there's the .284-3000 redheaded stepchild concept....

Greg
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Greg,

Funny you mention the .284-3000 red-headed stepchild. I have a 7mm blank that has numerous options still.

Just a thought, I'm not sure if you intend to keep the case taper the same or improve it. Along that line if you are looking for reduced recoil and efficiency you might try bumping the shoulder back to get your "improved" angle. RCBS is 28 *, Ackleys are 40* but I think you can get a better flow/pressure relationship with about 32-35* in that case. Of course you would still want to blow out the shoulder to .459" To gain that straighter case wall, and some powder increase. Anyhow, That will reduce case capacity, extend the neck length. Perfect for 108 Scenars and lighter 6.5mm A-max's

For the .30 cal you might look at the same thing. Just short bore a chamber to the dimension you want the body. Somewhere between the 30 BR and the .300. For dies, if you got too complicated it might run you a whole bunch of extra money. But the latter idea with the BR you could just back the BR die out and short size the cases, provided you kept the shoulder the same. You could do the same with the .260 with 6.5x47 Lapua or BR. The one thing I don't like about it is if you need to make a big shoulder bump, or angle change then you have unsupported brass between the shell holder and the die. But for minimal changes that will work.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Yep! The really savy ones even know which bullet, powder and primer you were using and how many firings you had on the brass.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Was he trying to steal your brass?
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

...didn't get the brass did he?? I'm not too sure he would have gotten it if the shooter had a .223 either.

Since you asked though, "How far away was he when his ticket was punched?"
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...didn't get the brass did he?? I'm not too sure he would have gotten it if the shooter had a .223 either.

Since you asked though, "How far away was he when his ticket was punched?"</div></div>

oh ....on the hoof about 100yd ....give or take
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

My view of wildcatting is pretty limited. If I can't take an existing case and neck it up/down a half mm or so, it's beyond my area of interest. I'm a regular K.I.S.S. guy.

Basically, I didn't like the 139 Scenars because they tended to generate more (too much more) pressure for the same charge than the 142's. Consequently, I tend to stay away from the Lapua pills. For the 120gr range, my preference would be for the 120 Nosler BT's for match or hunting, and the 129 HDY SST's as a hunting round.

Greg
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Greg,

That's understandable. Actually, what we were talking about is already done in the 6.5x47 Lapua. If you took a .250 Savage case and converted it to mm it's 48.5 ...without any improvement. The .250 case only has a shoulder of .419 though and the .300 case is .447. The .308 is .454 and it's shoulder height is the same as the .300. Anyhow, if you necked the .300 down you would be almost right at the 6.5x47 Lapua (Swiss). I don't know what the Creedmoore is but it's slightly bigger I understand than the 6.5x47 Lapua. Point is they've squeezed the case down to the most efficient it can be and not burn barrels out. But still give optimal velocity for the high BC bullets. Personally, I'm at the point as well that I've dreamed up all the variations I want to and pretty much know that anything I try is already out there.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Yep, that's why I know so little about wildcatting. There's danged few niches that aren't already occupied by a production cartridge.

I hadn't realized the case capacity of the 6.5x47 was so close to what I had envisioned. What's the cartridge base diameter? Who provides brass?

It's questions like this that might bring me back to my original proposals. I'd like the brass to be available from a domestic producer, and the base to fit my .473" diameter bolt face.

There's also the issue of space, in the gun cabinets, and in the pocketbook. My pipe dreams must be accomplish with no more than one new barrel, and the rechambering of an existing .30cal, 22", 1:10" blank. They will also need dies, too, and the 6.5 will likely need to be a custom set. Any barrel considerations that result in the need for a new stock will likely also require I 'do a Frankenstein' on my own. There's no way I'm going to mess with modifying a McM Tactical.

Greg
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

The 6.5x47 base is .473" Brass is made by Lapua. It was an experimental round by the Swiss and given up {placed on far backburner} on when they adopted the 5.56 Swiss (same as 5.56 NATO except they use a different bullet.) Which is a crying shame IMO. But, it is what it is.

As for dies you can get Redding, L.E. Wilson, Forster/Bonanza. Neck and Full length for the former and neck bushing for the latter two.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

ive been thinking about building a 6.5 cm . after spending 2 hrs reading this thread , im right back where i started . i guess ill toss a coin . lol
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

264win,

Toss a coin over these two or include the 6.5x47 Lapua? If I was to put it in an AR platform I'd go with the Creedmoor or 6.5x47. For all out best performance I would go with a .260 Rem Imp. with a 32-35 deg. shoulder. For something I didn't want to reload for ...that's easy.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I'm chambering my AR10 build in 6.5 CM, mostly b/c the match ammo does well and is affordable.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

im with you brother...ive been talking to Flounder about putting a heavy barrel upper together...chambered in 6.5CM for competitions. should be interesting to see where i place with a gas version verse a bolt action in the same caliber.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm chambering my AR10 build in 6.5 CM, mostly b/c the match ammo does well and is affordable.</div></div>

JRose,

Sorry, forgot this was loaded ammo on the market already. A definite plus over 6.5x47. However, I'm thinking for ease of access to ammo I would still, at this point (notice how I qualified that), go with the .260 Rem.

I found something yesterday that totally took me by surprise. I loaded up my 6mm Rem with 90 gr. speer FB's and the same quantity of RE-17 that I load H4350x behind 95 gr. Berger VLD's with, 45.5 gr. The load is 45.5 gr. of RE-17 behind a 90 sp/fb. And the load I'm sticking with is pushed @ 3450.

Anyhow, I was getting 200 fps faster than what I was getting with H4350. Which is good. This may be applicable to an AR with a reduced size case. You extend the max pressure curve with this powder. Not max pressure. Pressure is capped by a burn retardant integral (as opposed to spray-on after kernels are formed) in the powder composition. So, this may not work in the volume of a .260 or .308 in a gas gun but could work in a reduced volume case. >too much pressure at the port. Or possibly find a way to restrict it.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I've used .243 and .308 to make CM from. Any of the .308 family should work the same - but these are the only ones I've tested...and now concentrating on my .308 procedure so I can use Lapua brass - which I can get cheaper than CM brass, just more work.
The latest Hornady brass is great in my gasgun. But, better than Lapua? Not in my opinion. I haven't noticed any difference in accuracy by using either caliber to start with. The only reason I went with CM is ability to seat a 6.5 such as to chase the lands while staying mag-functional, and I can buy ammo if I get into a bind. The factory ammo I've tried is damned good, too.
And, if I..er when I build a bolt gun, I'll build the same thing. I like it, and it works.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

three very good cartridges,i made my choice [260]and havent looked back.130 berger vld is good in my 8 twist shilen but 142 sierras work well too,as does h4350.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Good choice wyobill, I am considering a similar project. My take on this is I am rebarreling to 260 Rem. Same perforamce as the creedmoor cheaper brass and you can get good performing ammo from HSM. If I wanted a more whiz bang cartridge for a short action rifle and was not worried about always having the time to reload, I would have went the 260 AI direction. The 260 AI would be a top performer and my first option if it where not for reloading. I enjoy to reload just do not get the time to do it as much as I would like.
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I'm having a new rifle built and this was the last question. 260 rem. or 6.5 CM. After reading most of the posts in this thread I've decided on the Creedmoor. Why you may ask.(or maybe not) Because I can buy match grade factory ammo at a great price. Other than that it was a wash...
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OFIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
beating_dead_horse.gif
</div></div>

Couldn't have said it any better than that!!!!
 
Re: 260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmoor

I went with the Creedmoor after reading Zak's articles, pricing ammo, and researching the more efficient case that allows bullets to be seated further out with the same OAL. Just seems like a better overall solution for someone looking for simple way to shoot accurately that doesn't have much reloading experience. I think the two points really sold it for me are the price of loaded ammo and the fact that the capacity advantage of the .260 is virtually negated when loaded to mag length.
Just the thoughts of someone just starting in the long range game. Thanks for the great discussion and references all.

Matt
 
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