Just bought some today just in case.
- Thread starter SSG3K
- Start date
Ok heads up! Course of fire laid out, all props are done and all target are here. All target are pretty small. 146 rounds needed for the match if you need a follow up shot. Please know your positional, weak side, hold over, and most of all your dope and zero. We got some more donations for the prize table today so lets give it up to these awesome vendors who support our sport.
Please be at Bluewater between 7 and 730 for waivers, score cards and match briefing.
Rich
Please be at Bluewater between 7 and 730 for waivers, score cards and match briefing.
Rich
Packed and ready to head out. 6.5 hours of driving ahead of us. Plus a couple of stops at LGS.
Safe travels! 4.5 hours here but I have a couple LGS to hit as well.
Saying rain all day Sunday 
A few from Day 1... Go Team Poodle!
Last edited:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks again fro everybody that came out! Sorry it was slow at times and chaotic at others. I don't think Ill be hearing that the targets were to big this time... Ill post the results later. If you have any pics or video please post them up.
Thanks again and hope to see you all again.
Rich
Thanks again and hope to see you all again.
Rich
Thanks again for putting all the time and effort into this event, Rich! We difinetly had a blast and look forward to returning next year!
Thanks again to all the organizers and RO's for putting this match on. Special thanks to Jeremy for letting a couple Canucks crash at his place, and doing a Ton prep work. Wish your leg would have held out for Sunday. I have never learnded so much in 2 days of shooting as I did at this match. Planning on coming back next year with a bigger crew of guys!
Can't say enough about the guys that made this shoot come off !!!! Thanks for all the work you did to make this a great match. Also want to thank all the sponsors that donated all the great prizes for us. If these 70 year old knees hold up I will be back. I want to see the film of my gallop through the rain. What a fun group of people to hang out with for a couple of days, it don't get any better !!! THANKS AGAIN !!
Last edited:
Thanks to Rich and crew for putting on a great match. The targets were small and the positions uncomfortable but nothing was impossible. The cof certainly tested you in new ways. Some creative barricades and good use of natural terrain. Well done! Prize table was awesome. Thanks to all the sponsors who donated. Good shooting was done by all.
Day 2, a few from my squad
Rain, what rain.
A shout out to Oakland Tactical! Welcome to OAKLAND TACTICAL - Hard Use Firearms and Components
Thanks for letting us all take a shot (or two if needed at 650 yards) using your DTA and ammo.
Rain, what rain.
A shout out to Oakland Tactical! Welcome to OAKLAND TACTICAL - Hard Use Firearms and Components
Thanks for letting us all take a shot (or two if needed at 650 yards) using your DTA and ammo.
Last edited:
The leaning tower of “That’s a target?!?” LOL
I was trying my best to capture brass in the air, got one of John S our match winner.
I was trying my best to capture brass in the air, got one of John S our match winner.
Last edited:
I forgot my SD card for the first half of the day... did anyone happen to get a pic of the Barricade from Hell in action?
Thanks [MENTION=87849]Cephalotus[/MENTION] truly one of SSG3K's master pieces
Those pics do not even begin to describe the difficulty of that stage.
As Director of the High Power Rifle Division at Blue Water Sportsman's Association I'd like to thank everyone for coming. It was a multi-State and international competition for sure. The dinner was fantastic Saturday night! I'd love to have them back next year (Thanks Jeremy). And to all of Rich's epic work in getting the sponsors to commit, props built and stages set, a huge thanks! And a final Thank You to the sponsors, whom without, this would not be possible. Please, those who shot, and won a nice prize, send out a quick email or call to the sponsors so they know they are appreciated! IT DOES MATTER!!
And now some self criticism....
As for next year, well, as Rich already posted, it all depends on help. Next year we won't have any issue with positions being not usable due to safety issues. We know things were slow at times, too much sitting around, too much time walking to hides, we get it and that's going to worked on. Yes targets go down and their is not much we can do about that except what we did. It happens at every match so we just have to deal with it. Your patients is appreciated! The goal is to get more, good, RO's for next year. If we do, then we can have much smaller squads, maybe half (8 to 10) the size. We'll see. Target ID is also a huge time eater (All I kept hearing was..where is it, by what, is it round?, what color is it? and on and on). We get it! Next year all targets will be ID'ed in one way or another so that it is clear, very clear and quickly visible as to where the stupid things are.
As for target size, well, every target was hit by someone, be it skill or dumb luck. The first year, with larger targets, the winning hit percentage was about 72% this year's winner was at 65.5%. There will continue to be a mixture of targets sizes though I would figure that next year they will be bigger at the longer ranges. But we shall see as it will all depend on the stage design.
And now it's your turn. Matches don't improve without input from the shooters. Please, tell us the good, the bad and whatever on how to make this a better match.
Thanks,
Derek Stratelak
And now some self criticism....
As for next year, well, as Rich already posted, it all depends on help. Next year we won't have any issue with positions being not usable due to safety issues. We know things were slow at times, too much sitting around, too much time walking to hides, we get it and that's going to worked on. Yes targets go down and their is not much we can do about that except what we did. It happens at every match so we just have to deal with it. Your patients is appreciated! The goal is to get more, good, RO's for next year. If we do, then we can have much smaller squads, maybe half (8 to 10) the size. We'll see. Target ID is also a huge time eater (All I kept hearing was..where is it, by what, is it round?, what color is it? and on and on). We get it! Next year all targets will be ID'ed in one way or another so that it is clear, very clear and quickly visible as to where the stupid things are.
As for target size, well, every target was hit by someone, be it skill or dumb luck. The first year, with larger targets, the winning hit percentage was about 72% this year's winner was at 65.5%. There will continue to be a mixture of targets sizes though I would figure that next year they will be bigger at the longer ranges. But we shall see as it will all depend on the stage design.
And now it's your turn. Matches don't improve without input from the shooters. Please, tell us the good, the bad and whatever on how to make this a better match.
Thanks,
Derek Stratelak
Last edited:
Well since you're asking for input...
You can get more ROs by letting ROs shoot the match, at discounted entry fee. They could shoot the entire match on Friday then RO Sat/Sun. (This also allows any "stage bugs" to get resolved early.) And maybe offer up lodging at the clubhouse, or negotiate something with a local hotel. Provide enough incentives and you'll get enough ROs. This is generally the model we use in ACTS; it works and one RO has placed in the top 2 spots 2 years running (ie, being an RO doesn't have to throw you off your game).
Some targets were fragile. Have more/better backup targets/components and tools for repair. That had to be driving you insane fixing the steel behind the cars every other shooter...
Some targets were obscured by vegetation in higher wind. Plan better and have trimming equipment handy.
Also stake down anything that could move. I heard the spotter say the day 2 CB target was getting shifted around under fire.
If you're going to run a CB shot from the main gate again, use some trucks to ferry shooters between the gate and the clubhouse.
You nailed it on target ID. That will be a big improvement.
Overall, great job guys. Very challenging and humbling match. Thanks for all the hard work.
^^^ LMAO Dave. I had a blast and it was definitely a challenging match. Thanks to Rich, Jeremy and all the RO's and sponsors that made it possible. Had a blast and already look forward to coming back next year.
Dustin
Dustin
One other thing I wanted to mention: Very cool of the the barreled action/chassis raffle winner from Oakland Tactical to gift his prize to the employee who humped gear around the ranges for 2 days. Nice prize, and well-deserved.
Big plus one Ive never seen anybody give a prize like that away... I vowed if I ever won a gun I would give it to somebody that actually needed it.
Scores.
1. John S
2. Pete S
3. Jon P
4. Walter K
5. Swank
6. Felipe
7. Sean H
8. Chris M
9. Dave K
10. Dave M
11. Mike P
12. Russ R
13. Ed B
14. Jason M
15. Ryan M
16. Brian G
17. Dereck P
18. Dustin G
19. Matt B
20. Dustin G
21. Eric B
22. Bill W
23. Wayne P
24. Sakobob .223 what were you thinking????
25. Ryan E
26. Robert K
27. Will T
28. Mark K
29. Terry P
30. Caycee O
31. Scott B.
32. Kristen N
33. Dirk left early
34.James UGH!!!!
35. Sean D
24. Sakobob .223 what were you thinking????
He did walk away with a dam good prize. That's your good luck charm bring it next year!!!
He did walk away with a dam good prize. That's your good luck charm bring it next year!!!
FYI My opinion and my opinion only... I think the targets were just right. I spotted for a good portion of the match and the misses were not that bad. If the plates were 2 more inches wide the scores would of been a lot higher. Last weekend was a wind game for sure. Do not feel bad about your performance, you guys were definitely challenged.
Rich
Rich
I agree with Rich. The target size was perfect. At first I thought the time allowed was on the short side, but after figuring out some better positional techniques it was pretty good. One thing I would recommend would be a Friday afternoon course (a few of hours) for first newbies to get a few pointers from more experienced shooters. I would have paid a little extra to help with the learning curve.
Ryan
Good comments, please keep them coming.
One comment that I've heard about letting the RO's shoot the match is that some feel that the paid competitors are at a disadvantage, that the match is fixed if a RO happens to win or place high enough to take a really sweet prize off the table. IDK, I've never been to another PCS type match before, this is just what I've been told. So to be totally impartial and to avoid any suspicion of a fix, the match directors and RO are out. But again, this is only what I've heard. If letting the RO's shoot for cost or free will generate 6 or 8 additional RO's, well I'd consider it. Since Rich and I set the course we would naturally be omitted. That said I'd like to shoot it just for the sake of shooting it.
I'm open.
Derek
One comment that I've heard about letting the RO's shoot the match is that some feel that the paid competitors are at a disadvantage, that the match is fixed if a RO happens to win or place high enough to take a really sweet prize off the table. IDK, I've never been to another PCS type match before, this is just what I've been told. So to be totally impartial and to avoid any suspicion of a fix, the match directors and RO are out. But again, this is only what I've heard. If letting the RO's shoot for cost or free will generate 6 or 8 additional RO's, well I'd consider it. Since Rich and I set the course we would naturally be omitted. That said I'd like to shoot it just for the sake of shooting it.
I'm open.
Derek
I got my ass kicked in this match, I don't mind.
A "nice to have" feature would be better defined backgrounds for more targets so more spotters could call corrections. There was some shooting into targets surrounded by jungle...
Good shooters will make 1st round hits no matter what. Shooters with an open mind can realize & fix mistakes quicker if spotters can easily spot & call bad shots.
I get what you're saying, but we're on the cutting edge of cheap technology to make that argument mute.
Have ROs shoot Friday with open invitation to all competitors to observe and RECORD. Any accusations of "disadvantage" needs to be backed up by evidence, at MD's discretion.
That may introduce some undesirable range-lawyering. You need to decide if that cost is worth having a cadre of willing & able Range Officers.
Part of the problem for the slow match is a lot of the shooters don't have a lot of experience shooting these types of matches. We had some shooters that didn't even have range reticles in their scopes, physically could not do the stages, and we had a few newbies etc... Combine this with not getting ready for stages while others are shooting it will just bogg down. I would of really liked to see more experienced shooters help the new ones to get things moving a little faster, coach people on how to manipulate stages and so forth. Its stems from the competitors also complaining does no good if you thing things are moving slow help encourage things to move smoother. Maybe the solution is a larger range so shooters can spread out and complete 3-4 stages in a combined area or maybe I can get experienced tactical match shooters to help me with doing this. RSO are great but if they have no idea how a stage is ran that doesn't do the competitors much good...
I got some other feedback about presetting up some stages, while this is excellent advice, I only receive 2 days to presetup the match. While this is plenty of time to do so I essentially have no time to actually do the match myself. Example, the dirty group I measured out the cardboard 2 weeks before the match, I had 1 pack of 3 inch shoot and sees... I searched for 2 weeks to find more and could not find any. That stage would not even existed if Mike Paige didn't step up and get me some from his kit. Which by the way was the day of the match. Another issue was the guy who was doing the target stands, he promised us he would have them done and ready before setup, guess what they didn't show up until Friday at 2 pm. There are so many things that sometimes people have no control over and Murphy's law just sets in.
I love doing this and will continue to do so. I was approached by people this weekend that said they have taken my advice and tried things I have recommended and they have actually become better shooters for doing so. This is why I do this. My ultimate goal is to have one of the best premiere matches in the country and I will succeed at doing so. These thing do not happen over night but I will get there at some point. At this time Im scouting for my own personal range where I will be able to do anything I desire with a rifle and have some very promising leads, things are happening and I myself will be moving forward with this.
I went to my gun room tonight to start the process of relearning how to manipulate my rifle, Im even going to send my best gunsmith a package tomorrow to get ready for next year... See everybody on the range.
Thanks again. MD of the MPRC formerly MPRSC
Rich
I got some other feedback about presetting up some stages, while this is excellent advice, I only receive 2 days to presetup the match. While this is plenty of time to do so I essentially have no time to actually do the match myself. Example, the dirty group I measured out the cardboard 2 weeks before the match, I had 1 pack of 3 inch shoot and sees... I searched for 2 weeks to find more and could not find any. That stage would not even existed if Mike Paige didn't step up and get me some from his kit. Which by the way was the day of the match. Another issue was the guy who was doing the target stands, he promised us he would have them done and ready before setup, guess what they didn't show up until Friday at 2 pm. There are so many things that sometimes people have no control over and Murphy's law just sets in.
I love doing this and will continue to do so. I was approached by people this weekend that said they have taken my advice and tried things I have recommended and they have actually become better shooters for doing so. This is why I do this. My ultimate goal is to have one of the best premiere matches in the country and I will succeed at doing so. These thing do not happen over night but I will get there at some point. At this time Im scouting for my own personal range where I will be able to do anything I desire with a rifle and have some very promising leads, things are happening and I myself will be moving forward with this.
I went to my gun room tonight to start the process of relearning how to manipulate my rifle, Im even going to send my best gunsmith a package tomorrow to get ready for next year... See everybody on the range.
Thanks again. MD of the MPRC formerly MPRSC
Rich
Rich I have no complaints about the match. I've been MD for matches, I understand the burden.
I offer suggestions to make it better next year. That's all.
You and Derek and Jeremy and the RO guys are fucking rockstars in my book.
Again, thanks for all the hard work.
I offer suggestions to make it better next year. That's all.
You and Derek and Jeremy and the RO guys are fucking rockstars in my book.
Again, thanks for all the hard work.
There was a lot of standing around and waiting, BUT, with the number of shooters in each squad that had to be expected.
That said, my thoughts on time...
Most of the wasted time saw was the first 15-20 minutes answering questions and pointing out targets... we already had the distances which I feel was a great improvement and time saver to last year where we had to range targets. I think with the addition of easily seen target markers identifying the targets down range and a stage hand out with the distances, course description or stage rules would speed this up a little. Target identifiers from one stage should be easily discernible from targets of a different stage. I felt the time limit on stages kept everything moving well. The time required for range repair, short of having a back up of the same type ready and in hand, has to be expected.
I liked the fact that we didn’t have to carry our own score sheets around this year and turn them in for every stage.
Rich, I enjoyed the difficulty of the target size... I felt it made up for the somewhat limited distances BWSA has to offer. I agree, it’s no fun to miss one but growing the size of the target would have made little difference on overall scores, shooter’s confidence, maybe...
I found the fallen tree and barricade from hell stages the most challenging because of the stability issues they had built in but I’d actually like to see more of this. This is why I like matches... to learn my weak points and train to overcome them ... unlike the roof top on a trailer stage where I screwed up last year and apparently didn’t learn my lesson well enough because I did the same thing wrong this year. That will not happen again!
The platform hide stage, I was fighting visibility issues with vegetation completely obscuring the target because of the wind... It’s understood you can’t plan for everything, so after several seconds I punched the leaves with my best guess, missed and moved on to the next position and target. A little extra trimming could have solved the problem but I am not complaining given the weather.
Thank you Rich! This match was no small feat, thank you for taking the time and all the dedication that went into making this match happen again. I learned much and enjoyed it all. Derek and all the other RO’s, Thank You Too!!! All of you took time out of your busy lives for no personal gain, thank you!
Fellow shooters, thanks for a great time, safe time and good conversions... I left with many new friends I otherwise would have likely never met.
In closing, at least for now, a reminder to contact all of our match sponsors and thank them... it’s not enough to just say thanks here. Email them, call them or snail mail them a thank you... it will pay dividends if you continue in this sport.
That said, my thoughts on time...
Most of the wasted time saw was the first 15-20 minutes answering questions and pointing out targets... we already had the distances which I feel was a great improvement and time saver to last year where we had to range targets. I think with the addition of easily seen target markers identifying the targets down range and a stage hand out with the distances, course description or stage rules would speed this up a little. Target identifiers from one stage should be easily discernible from targets of a different stage. I felt the time limit on stages kept everything moving well. The time required for range repair, short of having a back up of the same type ready and in hand, has to be expected.
I liked the fact that we didn’t have to carry our own score sheets around this year and turn them in for every stage.
Rich, I enjoyed the difficulty of the target size... I felt it made up for the somewhat limited distances BWSA has to offer. I agree, it’s no fun to miss one but growing the size of the target would have made little difference on overall scores, shooter’s confidence, maybe...
I found the fallen tree and barricade from hell stages the most challenging because of the stability issues they had built in but I’d actually like to see more of this. This is why I like matches... to learn my weak points and train to overcome them ... unlike the roof top on a trailer stage where I screwed up last year and apparently didn’t learn my lesson well enough because I did the same thing wrong this year. That will not happen again!
The platform hide stage, I was fighting visibility issues with vegetation completely obscuring the target because of the wind... It’s understood you can’t plan for everything, so after several seconds I punched the leaves with my best guess, missed and moved on to the next position and target. A little extra trimming could have solved the problem but I am not complaining given the weather.
Thank you Rich! This match was no small feat, thank you for taking the time and all the dedication that went into making this match happen again. I learned much and enjoyed it all. Derek and all the other RO’s, Thank You Too!!! All of you took time out of your busy lives for no personal gain, thank you!
Fellow shooters, thanks for a great time, safe time and good conversions... I left with many new friends I otherwise would have likely never met.
In closing, at least for now, a reminder to contact all of our match sponsors and thank them... it’s not enough to just say thanks here. Email them, call them or snail mail them a thank you... it will pay dividends if you continue in this sport.
Last edited:
Disagree! First, i shot but told Rich there is no chance of me accepting any kind of prize. Second, this was my first shoot and our goal for the competition is to get new shooter and grow the sport. i think, paying to use the facility as we did, the facility should provide help. ROs should not be to hard with as many members blue water has. It was 2 ROs who shot, which are guys trying to gain experience in the sport. It wasnt like we had 10 ROs shooting. Thanks Rob, zat and six for being awesome ROs. Vince did a great job working with Rich. We have been talking and will work on things but hope all enjoyed!
Jeremy
Next year, see if it is somehow possible to add a another quad/4-wheeler for each individual squad RO. Shit happens and they RO/MD is going have to traverse through the course multiple times. Surely some of the local guys have them and would be willing to trailer one to the match for the weekend. I had a great time and would love to come back next year. Thanks for all the hard work.
First let me say THANK YOU! I had a great time; the COF was challenging, there was great shooter turnout, the weather treated us way better than could have been expected, the prize table and sponsor list was fantastic, the ROs were friendly and had a great attitude, and it was the one match I can go to in the year that is close to home. Awesome details included supplying us with water, snacks/granola bars, the awesome BBQ dinner and the JJ sandwiches. Great thinking!
You mentioned attracting new shooters... It doesn't seem attracting shooters is much of a problem, as the match was full. However, it seems this match faces a difficulty factor many other (perhaps bigger and more established) matches don't have - which is the extreme variation in skill level of the shooters. You've got guys ranging from serious shooters that travel the national circuit shooting national-level events, all the way down to small time local guys shooting their first match and taking advantage of a real tactical match that is within easy driving distance.
This makes designing a COF more difficult because a highly challenging one suits the experienced guys just fine, but is intimidating for less experienced guys. I know I heard a fair bit of pissing/moaning from a couple shooters that just weren't hitting much. Now, some people are great at taking things like that in stride; doing their best and not getting frustrated if they can't connect on targets. Others on the other hand, get disgruntled and feel alienated - making them less likely to come out to events like this. This is a lot less of an issue at the bigger national events because anyone going to them knows it's a big-time event and if they are a novice, fully expect to get a beat down.
Frankly, I'm not really sure what can be done about it. The COF had some stages that were manageable for novices, but for the most part, the targets were very small. Maybe working out the logistics to more evenly spread the "easier" stages throughout the weekend, so a shooter that had his ass handed to him at one stage will soon shoot another one where he can get some good hits? Perhaps you could simply put some larger targets out there so shooters would rarely take a zero for any stage, while still keeping a bunch of challenging targets out there? Maybe have a big target and a small target at many of the target positions to allow the shooter to choose which to shoot at (obviously small target = more points)? Perhaps the answer is simply to "not care" about the couple of guys that get sand in their vaginas? Honestly, I don't know the answer and don't know exactly what to suggest, but the match organizers should at least be aware of this.
Logistically, some improvements can be made to make the match move along more smoothly and quickly.
Here are my criticisms: (Note: After spending some time on this and compiling this rather long list, I'd like to take a second to reiterate this was a GREAT match - please don't think I'm complaining!!)
1. Cold Bore Shot. It takes forever to cycle 35+ shooters through this. I realize that Rich wants everybody to have the exact same CBS "condition" to deal with to keep things fair. Still, this could be reconfigured so 2 or 3 squads can be shooting this stage at the same time. Not sure if that would be best done by having multiple (close by) shooting positions taking turns firing at one target, or multiple positions shooting multiple targets... Regardless, provided the target distance, target size, target visibility, wind-effect and shooter position is basically the same, no one would mind the shooting "scenario" not being literally identical. This would save an hour per day.
2. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the layout of the facility, but if it's possible to configure the shooting lanes to allow for more than two squads to be shooting at a time, that would certainly keep shooters shooting more. Maybe 3 squads instead of 2? A method I've seen at other matches to really keep up the shooting-flow is to set up several stages that can be shot (and walked to/from) safely, and have shooters do a "round robin" of those stages.
3. More RO/Spotter support, which I realize dovetails directly into my 2nd point above. You can't have more squads when you're already short on ROs and Spotters. Rich mentioned on several occasions he was having trouble getting RO's and spotters that are experienced with this type of shooting match. I overheard Felipe suggest to Rich a method that works to get RO volunteers is to tell them they'll get to go to the prize table beginning after the 5th place shooter. That allows top shooters to get first pick of prizes, but leaves "good stuff" on the table for the RO's. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.
Also, provided the match is going to take place basically the same weekend... Next year, you can count on Peter and I both to be RO/Spotters for the match. We have good scopes/tripods and solid experience with how this kind of match is run. It would be super awesome if we could ALSO compete in the match, but if that's not in the cards, we'll still RO/Spot.
4. Safety. I know the match was "big boy rules" but nonetheless, I saw (what I consider) an unsafe practice occurring time and again: People moving from one position to the next with a round in battery. Shooters would often fire the last round from a given port/log/spot on the barricade, chamber a fresh round AND THEN move to their next spot. I never saw the muzzle of a loaded rifle pointed at anybody, but they were often pointed into the sky and/or haphazardly in a randomish downrange direction. This is not allowed at any other match I've attended, and I'd argue is simply not best practice. It should be stressed to shooters to ONLY chamber a round once in position and the target/impact berm is in the scope. I've seen several ND's at various matches from people shifting position and inadvertently touching the trigger. A problem compounded by the fact many precision rifle shooters run pretty light triggers.
5. Match booklet. It is really nice as a shooter to receive a match booklet that has stage descriptions, target designations, ranges, rules etc etc so shooters can read through and brief themselves beforehand. Understanding this costs money in the form of paper/printing/etc, even just emailing it to the shooters the night before the match begins would be nice. Shooters could either print it out, or just download on their smartphone to have it out in the field with them. Dovetailing into this is a prior suggestion by [MENTION=11250]stinkyDrunk[/MENTION] to possibly have ROs shoot the match the day before, and allow competitors to come watch.
6. Prizes. The prize table and raffle was great, I really like to see rifles/barreled actions going to newbies that are trying hard with subpar equipment or perhaps no equipment at all. In fact, at PTS last year RW Snyder donated a complete rifle build, to be given to a shooter the ROs all agreed NEEDED one, and had the right ATTITUDE to deserve it. This was absolutely fucking awesome. However, one adjustment I'd make (aside from the already mentioned RO prize table incentive) would be altering the cash payout. Instead of $1000 going to the match winner only, maybe $500 to 1st place, $250 to 2nd and $150 to 3rd? Or something like that. You get the idea.
7. Target designations. When you WANT the targets to be easily seen, white is by far the best color to use. If you want to add target acquisition difficulty to the "test" of the stage - paint them red or green or whatever. I know quite a few shooters were having trouble finding targets so I think white paint would've been helpful. As an aside..... This was not an issue at this match, but I've seen it at other matches where a target is going to get hit a LOT, you might as well not paint it at all. This makes it so everybody gets the same crappy sight picture on that target, rather than the first few shooters getting a fresh target, and then everybody else a dull gray crappy one.
8. Target failures. I'm sure you guys are learning a lot about setting up steel targets and what it takes to keep them up and running throughout a match like this, and I realize this is a constant-learning process. That said, don't underestimate the time wasted in fixing targets. At the hostage stage shot prone off the berm top, the target hanging in the drivers window failed at least 4 consecutive times for my squad, taking ~10 minutes each time to repair. This one target easily cost our squad 40 minutes or more in downtime, and wasn't the only example of target failure. Again, I realize setting steel targets that can withstand hundreds of high-power rifle shots without failure is 1/2 art, 1/2 science and not easy, but it is something to focus attention on in the future to improve the match.
9. PRS Match. Making this a PRS match would draw a larger number of more highly experienced shooters, which would be awesome. The only thing stopping it is RO support and space for 50+ shooters. It would absolutely be a solid avenue in growing/proliferating this match, and tactical match shooting in this region of the country in general. It's a double edge sword though because the talent level will be greater, creating an even greater talent difference. I dunno, maybe this match needs another year or two under it's belt before going PRS?
A few other thoughts:
I rather liked the couple stages I shot where foliage and vegetation would occasionally block the target. You had to wait for the right wind condition for the foliage to blow out of the way. This required the shooter to judge if they'd be better off shifting position to get a better view, wait for the right wind condition, or to simply move on in the interest of time. Hard to "design into" a stage, but neat when it happens just right.
It was mentioned to provide better impact berms for seeing the splash from misses. Personally I thought it was a pretty good blend. In practical field shooting, it is pretty common to see a vegetation backdrop behind a target and a miss won't be seen. Forces a shooter to develop their ability to watch for trace/vaportrail. That said, I'd have liked it if the Cold bore shots had a nice dirt berm behind.
You mentioned attracting new shooters... It doesn't seem attracting shooters is much of a problem, as the match was full. However, it seems this match faces a difficulty factor many other (perhaps bigger and more established) matches don't have - which is the extreme variation in skill level of the shooters. You've got guys ranging from serious shooters that travel the national circuit shooting national-level events, all the way down to small time local guys shooting their first match and taking advantage of a real tactical match that is within easy driving distance.
This makes designing a COF more difficult because a highly challenging one suits the experienced guys just fine, but is intimidating for less experienced guys. I know I heard a fair bit of pissing/moaning from a couple shooters that just weren't hitting much. Now, some people are great at taking things like that in stride; doing their best and not getting frustrated if they can't connect on targets. Others on the other hand, get disgruntled and feel alienated - making them less likely to come out to events like this. This is a lot less of an issue at the bigger national events because anyone going to them knows it's a big-time event and if they are a novice, fully expect to get a beat down.
Frankly, I'm not really sure what can be done about it. The COF had some stages that were manageable for novices, but for the most part, the targets were very small. Maybe working out the logistics to more evenly spread the "easier" stages throughout the weekend, so a shooter that had his ass handed to him at one stage will soon shoot another one where he can get some good hits? Perhaps you could simply put some larger targets out there so shooters would rarely take a zero for any stage, while still keeping a bunch of challenging targets out there? Maybe have a big target and a small target at many of the target positions to allow the shooter to choose which to shoot at (obviously small target = more points)? Perhaps the answer is simply to "not care" about the couple of guys that get sand in their vaginas? Honestly, I don't know the answer and don't know exactly what to suggest, but the match organizers should at least be aware of this.
Logistically, some improvements can be made to make the match move along more smoothly and quickly.
Here are my criticisms: (Note: After spending some time on this and compiling this rather long list, I'd like to take a second to reiterate this was a GREAT match - please don't think I'm complaining!!)
1. Cold Bore Shot. It takes forever to cycle 35+ shooters through this. I realize that Rich wants everybody to have the exact same CBS "condition" to deal with to keep things fair. Still, this could be reconfigured so 2 or 3 squads can be shooting this stage at the same time. Not sure if that would be best done by having multiple (close by) shooting positions taking turns firing at one target, or multiple positions shooting multiple targets... Regardless, provided the target distance, target size, target visibility, wind-effect and shooter position is basically the same, no one would mind the shooting "scenario" not being literally identical. This would save an hour per day.
2. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the layout of the facility, but if it's possible to configure the shooting lanes to allow for more than two squads to be shooting at a time, that would certainly keep shooters shooting more. Maybe 3 squads instead of 2? A method I've seen at other matches to really keep up the shooting-flow is to set up several stages that can be shot (and walked to/from) safely, and have shooters do a "round robin" of those stages.
3. More RO/Spotter support, which I realize dovetails directly into my 2nd point above. You can't have more squads when you're already short on ROs and Spotters. Rich mentioned on several occasions he was having trouble getting RO's and spotters that are experienced with this type of shooting match. I overheard Felipe suggest to Rich a method that works to get RO volunteers is to tell them they'll get to go to the prize table beginning after the 5th place shooter. That allows top shooters to get first pick of prizes, but leaves "good stuff" on the table for the RO's. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.
Also, provided the match is going to take place basically the same weekend... Next year, you can count on Peter and I both to be RO/Spotters for the match. We have good scopes/tripods and solid experience with how this kind of match is run. It would be super awesome if we could ALSO compete in the match, but if that's not in the cards, we'll still RO/Spot.
4. Safety. I know the match was "big boy rules" but nonetheless, I saw (what I consider) an unsafe practice occurring time and again: People moving from one position to the next with a round in battery. Shooters would often fire the last round from a given port/log/spot on the barricade, chamber a fresh round AND THEN move to their next spot. I never saw the muzzle of a loaded rifle pointed at anybody, but they were often pointed into the sky and/or haphazardly in a randomish downrange direction. This is not allowed at any other match I've attended, and I'd argue is simply not best practice. It should be stressed to shooters to ONLY chamber a round once in position and the target/impact berm is in the scope. I've seen several ND's at various matches from people shifting position and inadvertently touching the trigger. A problem compounded by the fact many precision rifle shooters run pretty light triggers.
5. Match booklet. It is really nice as a shooter to receive a match booklet that has stage descriptions, target designations, ranges, rules etc etc so shooters can read through and brief themselves beforehand. Understanding this costs money in the form of paper/printing/etc, even just emailing it to the shooters the night before the match begins would be nice. Shooters could either print it out, or just download on their smartphone to have it out in the field with them. Dovetailing into this is a prior suggestion by [MENTION=11250]stinkyDrunk[/MENTION] to possibly have ROs shoot the match the day before, and allow competitors to come watch.
6. Prizes. The prize table and raffle was great, I really like to see rifles/barreled actions going to newbies that are trying hard with subpar equipment or perhaps no equipment at all. In fact, at PTS last year RW Snyder donated a complete rifle build, to be given to a shooter the ROs all agreed NEEDED one, and had the right ATTITUDE to deserve it. This was absolutely fucking awesome. However, one adjustment I'd make (aside from the already mentioned RO prize table incentive) would be altering the cash payout. Instead of $1000 going to the match winner only, maybe $500 to 1st place, $250 to 2nd and $150 to 3rd? Or something like that. You get the idea.
7. Target designations. When you WANT the targets to be easily seen, white is by far the best color to use. If you want to add target acquisition difficulty to the "test" of the stage - paint them red or green or whatever. I know quite a few shooters were having trouble finding targets so I think white paint would've been helpful. As an aside..... This was not an issue at this match, but I've seen it at other matches where a target is going to get hit a LOT, you might as well not paint it at all. This makes it so everybody gets the same crappy sight picture on that target, rather than the first few shooters getting a fresh target, and then everybody else a dull gray crappy one.
8. Target failures. I'm sure you guys are learning a lot about setting up steel targets and what it takes to keep them up and running throughout a match like this, and I realize this is a constant-learning process. That said, don't underestimate the time wasted in fixing targets. At the hostage stage shot prone off the berm top, the target hanging in the drivers window failed at least 4 consecutive times for my squad, taking ~10 minutes each time to repair. This one target easily cost our squad 40 minutes or more in downtime, and wasn't the only example of target failure. Again, I realize setting steel targets that can withstand hundreds of high-power rifle shots without failure is 1/2 art, 1/2 science and not easy, but it is something to focus attention on in the future to improve the match.
9. PRS Match. Making this a PRS match would draw a larger number of more highly experienced shooters, which would be awesome. The only thing stopping it is RO support and space for 50+ shooters. It would absolutely be a solid avenue in growing/proliferating this match, and tactical match shooting in this region of the country in general. It's a double edge sword though because the talent level will be greater, creating an even greater talent difference. I dunno, maybe this match needs another year or two under it's belt before going PRS?
A few other thoughts:
I rather liked the couple stages I shot where foliage and vegetation would occasionally block the target. You had to wait for the right wind condition for the foliage to blow out of the way. This required the shooter to judge if they'd be better off shifting position to get a better view, wait for the right wind condition, or to simply move on in the interest of time. Hard to "design into" a stage, but neat when it happens just right.
It was mentioned to provide better impact berms for seeing the splash from misses. Personally I thought it was a pretty good blend. In practical field shooting, it is pretty common to see a vegetation backdrop behind a target and a miss won't be seen. Forces a shooter to develop their ability to watch for trace/vaportrail. That said, I'd have liked it if the Cold bore shots had a nice dirt berm behind.
Rich,
I want to say you put on a first class match. I thought the targets were fair, some were small at distance (maybe make them worth more points-odd number to break some of the ties), I love the barricades etc you had set up, matches shouldn't be shot prone, there should be stress and position to add difficulty. I thought the scores were good for the difficulty of some of the targets. You had some great shooters there. My squad was awesome to spend two days with and shoot with. No egos and great people. The RO's and Rich were first rate. I think next year the match will be even better. I don't like the target id idea, if you run smaller groups the time for id will drop too. Iding a target is part of these types of matches. I had to shoot the stage on the platform in the back without any paint and the targets were very difficult to spot. (and Rich, I have a good scope....jk) that is luck of the draw, I shot last and someone always has to shoot last. It all works itself out in the end. I want to thank you again for spending the time to set up the match and to the sponsors for making it a great table and to all the shooters.
Sean H
I want to say you put on a first class match. I thought the targets were fair, some were small at distance (maybe make them worth more points-odd number to break some of the ties), I love the barricades etc you had set up, matches shouldn't be shot prone, there should be stress and position to add difficulty. I thought the scores were good for the difficulty of some of the targets. You had some great shooters there. My squad was awesome to spend two days with and shoot with. No egos and great people. The RO's and Rich were first rate. I think next year the match will be even better. I don't like the target id idea, if you run smaller groups the time for id will drop too. Iding a target is part of these types of matches. I had to shoot the stage on the platform in the back without any paint and the targets were very difficult to spot. (and Rich, I have a good scope....jk) that is luck of the draw, I shot last and someone always has to shoot last. It all works itself out in the end. I want to thank you again for spending the time to set up the match and to the sponsors for making it a great table and to all the shooters.
Sean H
Rich the match was great if you had the same exact stages next year I would pay to shoot it again. I thought I was tested last year at my first event this year was even more of a test.
I believe you had the right mix of shooters young and old experienced and new.
About the target sizes . You will always have people complain that will never change . Your guy in 4th place Walter , This was his first match with a new rifle who ran his data in the motel lobby the night before the match. Yes there is some luck involved but the playing field was level everyone had a chance.
Get them Marine RO's to bring some like minded friends they were great. They ran great stages kept a tight ship and took a lot of pressure off Derek who busted his ass as always.
The streamers or fluorescent tape on the stand stage was great. Do that on all of them and I believe half of your target I'd problems will be less. I have a steel target idea to protect the bolts.
The quad idea for each stage is a good idea and better for emergencies.
You need to use the two bays on the east side more. You could run two short stages on two bays while everyone else shoots the two on the west side at the car. Then everyone backs out to do the east west shoot and 600+ yard stuff then switch the next day.
I have many more ideas that I will message you with later.
Thank you for bringing this event type to Michigan . Many of us wouldnt have this chance if it wasn't for your hard work !
I believe you had the right mix of shooters young and old experienced and new.
About the target sizes . You will always have people complain that will never change . Your guy in 4th place Walter , This was his first match with a new rifle who ran his data in the motel lobby the night before the match. Yes there is some luck involved but the playing field was level everyone had a chance.
Get them Marine RO's to bring some like minded friends they were great. They ran great stages kept a tight ship and took a lot of pressure off Derek who busted his ass as always.
The streamers or fluorescent tape on the stand stage was great. Do that on all of them and I believe half of your target I'd problems will be less. I have a steel target idea to protect the bolts.
The quad idea for each stage is a good idea and better for emergencies.
You need to use the two bays on the east side more. You could run two short stages on two bays while everyone else shoots the two on the west side at the car. Then everyone backs out to do the east west shoot and 600+ yard stuff then switch the next day.
I have many more ideas that I will message you with later.
Thank you for bringing this event type to Michigan . Many of us wouldnt have this chance if it wasn't for your hard work !
Last edited:
^^this
There are no PRS matches north of NC, and there are probably a lot of shooters that would like to try one. I would have come to this it was one.
Saturday dinner deserves a pic too!
Derek, to get some range officers out, how about recruiting, from your clubs junior high power team or any of the high power shooters give them a mini course on how to shoot this type of an event set up a mini training class on how to shoot this type of an event, and then them shoot the Friday before the match to work all the bugs out and to learn the course of fire needed. Pay them 30 or 40 a day and or 50 off certificate for the next match, + the tips the shooters put in
Last edited:
Similar threads
