300 yards shooting is all over the place.

[Sterling Shooter]

Crap ammo? Is that what the OP was shooting? The OP did not mention what brand or grade of ammunition he was shooting, other than it was not match ammunition, so, perhaps, it is you that is psychic. My comments are in bounds with the use of any common generic ammunition, period. This is ammunition which will produce a group when sights are aligned and the trigger is pulled without disturbing aim. A shooter with basic marksmanship skill can produce a group from such ammunition. A shooter without basic marksmanship skill cannot produce a group with this sort of ammunition nor can he produce a group with match grade ammunition at any distance which unmasks shooter error.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I'm interested to hear the explanation of ammo that groups 6" @ 100 yards when the gun is in a vice and the barrel is pointed in the same spot...what is the explanation then? Poor vice shooting marksmanship? Maybe the barrel was pointed in the same spot but if the ammo is inconsistent, by the time the projectile leaves the muzzle it will NOT be pointing in the same direction as the harmonics on the barrel will cause it to flex into a different point in space each time the bullet leaves the muzzle. It is NOT uncommon to buy off the shelf ammo that performs this poorly. Does Sterling know that Wal-Mart's ammo, even though it is in the same box as the ammo you buy from the gun shop and online, is not the same? Look at the product number on the box..chances are it has a 'WM' prefix... this means it's stuff dedicated from the factory for Wal Mart..which means it's cheap and shitty. As I said before...the shooter probably has mechanics issues with his marksmanship...but if the gun is working well then he ought ot be able to hit a 16" target at 300 yards no matter HOW poorly his body positioning is. He needs to check his equipment including his ammo before making other adjustments. We are shooting ammo, the rifle is just the tool that gets it down range. Sterling is downplaying the importance of this.

So now we have crap ammo, ammo which will not shoot in a 6 inch group from a vice, and ammo from Walmart. I did not read any of that from the OP's post. He just said he was not shooting match grade. Does this mean shooting any other than match grade would suggest probable cause of error is ammunition? No, but, you need to imagine this exception to make your argument. Am I downplaying this? No, I do not need to because it is as much of a projection of what you want the outcome to be as it is an exception. You are also very much incorrect about what the shooter should be able to do at 300 yards when ammunition is or is not an issue. In fact, it's at the 300 yard line that most shooter errors begin to be revealed with any ammunition. 16 inches of error? Where did that come from, the OP said "all over the place". Again, you need to embellish to make your argument. Remember your argument, you said, " ammunition was the probable cause". With all information from the OP that is not the probable cause. With what we know the probable cause is poor marksmanship, because it is probable that a novice shooter will not get commensurate results at 300 with results produced at shorter distance using any ammunition.

 

[Erud]

I'm shooting out to 300 yards and it seems that some of my shots hit close to center, some don't hit the target at all. Some shots are 5 inches from each other, some 10 inches or more.

Basically my shots are all over the place but some do hit close to center.

What is the best way to trouble shoot this? I retorqued and check scope tightness, so I don't think that is the problem.

I'm not a very good shooter and just started but I think I'm holding the cross hairs in the center of the target. Should I shoot at less of a range?

Thanks in advance.

So now we have crap ammo, ammo which will not shoot in a 6 inch group from a vice and ammo from Walmart. I did not read any of that from the OP's post. You need to imagine this exception to make your argument. No, I am not downplaying this, I do not need to because it is as much of a projection of your fantasy as it is an exception. You are also very much incorrect about what the shooter should be able to do at 300 yards when ammunition is or is not an issue. In fact, it's at the 300 yard line that most shooter errors begin to be revealed with any ammunition. 16 inches of error? Where did that come from, the OP said "all over the place". Again, you need to embellish to make your argument.

Sterling, the shooters at the SAFS clinics where you assistant-coach must be much worse shooters than any of the new shooters I've ever encountered. The OP mentioned in the OP that:

"some of my shots hit close to center, some don't hit the target at all. Some shots are 5 inches from each other, some 10 inches or more."

In his follow-up post, he states that:

"Some of my shots don't even hit on a 16" target."

I have yet to encounter a person that could not hit a 16" target reliably at 300 yards with a properly functioning rifle and ammo. You are once again making a self-important stand on a topic where you can only guess, and are dismissing very real possibilities in an effort to again be the smartest guy in the room. This is a small room. As I mentioned earlier, to folks that know what the credentials in your sig line actually mean, they are not that impressive. I notice that you do not post on any boards that relate directly to the type of shooting that you never stop talking about here. Why is that? I suspect that it is because that in a larger pond, you are revealed to be a much smaller fish.


PS - I shot in a Long Range Regional match 2 weekends ago with 30 shooters. Only 19 of us were LR High Masters

 

[ahhshoot]

Sterling, the shooters at the SAFS clinics where you assistant-coach must be much worse shooters than any of the new shooters I've ever encountered. The OP mentioned in the OP that:

"some of my shots hit close to center, some don't hit the target at all. Some shots are 5 inches from each other, some 10 inches or more."

In his follow-up post, he states that:

"Some of my shots don't even hit on a 16" target."

I have yet to encounter a person that could not hit a 16" target reliably at 300 yards with a properly functioning rifle and ammo. You are once again making a self-important stand on a topic where you can only guess, and are dismissing very real possibilities in an effort to again be the smartest guy in the room. This is a small room. As I mentioned earlier, to folks that know what the credentials in your sig line actually mean, they are not that impressive. I notice that you do not post on any boards that relate directly to the type of shooting that you never stop talking about here. Why is that? I suspect that it is because that in a larger pond, you are revealed to be a much smaller fish.


PS - I shot in a Long Range Regional match 2 weekends ago with 30 shooters. Only 19 of us were LR High Masters

Thanks ERUD, you just saved me some work. I knew he had said he missed the 16" target because I actually read what the OP's symptoms were before jumping to a diagnosis. Sterling is all hellbent over making sure everyone knows that they are poor marksmen. The reality is MOST new shooters buy their ammo from WAL MART where it's not uncommon to get a box that groups 6" or more at 100. I've had it happen multiple times until I finally learned that there is no way to learn to shoot better if my equipment is not giving repeatable results. To miss a 16" target at 300 yards with proper equipment, I'd imagine the shooter would have to be either on crack or in the middle of a pretty violent seizure.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

It's obvious the OP's marksmanship is the probable cause of error. Until we know from the OP what the results were at 100, it is speculation that ammunition is the issue. A shot 16 inches off, does not indicate ammunition quality. It indicates a possible defective round, but, with the description of shots as a whole, very poor trigger control and/or poor follow through are suspect for such a shot.

 

[Erud]

It's obvious the OP's marksmanship is the probable cause of error. Until we know from the OP what the results were at 100, it is speculation that ammunition is the issue. 16 inches off, does not indicate bad ammunition. It indicates defective ammunition, very poor trigger control and/or poor follow through.

Ok chief - you're the boss.

I will defer to your self-proclaimed expertise.

 

[Erud]

Here's how I know what I know. The shooter produced a group at 100 yards. This suggests the rifle is not broken and the ammunition is not defective. In a no wind condition the shooter did not produce a group at 300 yards. He stated that his shots were all over the place. This is an indication of shooter error, inconsistent perspective of aim, inconsistent position, poor trigger control. If the shooter had some knowledge of what is important to good shooting he would have produced a group at 300 with any ammunition. So, I do not need to know what ammunition he was shooting. I do know for a fact that the OP just does not know how to shoot. I also now know something about you. You do not know anything about shooter/target analysis. I hope you learn something about it before advising anyone that their problem is probably their ammunition.

Didn't you already know how he did at 100?

 

[ahhshoot]

It's obvious the OP's marksmanship is the probable cause of error. Until we know from the OP what the results were at 100, it is speculation that ammunition is the issue. A shot 16 inches off, does not indicate ammunition quality. It indicates a possible defective round, but, with the description of shots as a whole, very poor trigger control and/or poor follow through is suspect.

Yeahhh.. So... we don't know the 100 yard group size.. and to blame ammunition is speculation, but it's OBVIOUS that it's all the shooter? Holy Chit.

Then you continue to say that it is not indicative of ammunition quality, just perhaps a defective round... Because, defective rounds have NOTHING to do with ammunition quality... right? We're all wrong sometimes, man. You didn't read everything from the OP and you jumped to a conclusion. No harm no foul. Happens to the best of us.

 

[Erud]

Yeahhh.. So... we don't know the 100 yard group size.. and to blame ammunition is speculation, but it's OBVIOUS that it's all the shooter? Holy Chit.

Then you continue to say that it is not indicative of ammunition quality, just perhaps a defective round... Because, defective rounds have NOTHING to do with ammunition quality... right? We're all wrong sometimes, man. You didn't read everything from the OP and you jumped to a conclusion. No harm no foul. Happens to the best of us.

He does this all the time. Seriously, for years. Better watch yourself or you'll end up on his ignore list like me. Then when you come groveling back to beg for his help with a problem that only an assistant volunteer SAFS coach could answer, it'll be too late.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Yeahhh.. So... we don't know the 100 yard group size.. and to blame ammunition is speculation, but it's OBVIOUS that it's all the shooter? Holy Chit.

Then you continue to say that it is not indicative of ammunition quality, just perhaps a defective round... Because, defective rounds have NOTHING to do with ammunition quality... right? We're all wrong sometimes, man. You didn't read everything from the OP and you jumped to a conclusion. No harm no foul. Happens to the best of us.

Is ammunition the probable cause of error? No, there is no support for probable cause, when error as described is commonly produced by poor marksmanship. This is what has been obvious from the first post. You need to project and speculate to make ammunition a probable cause. The fact that the OP did not allude to bad results at shorter distance also suggest error is with marksmanship. Only until the OP provides more information could ammunition be considered the probable cause.

 

[ahhshoot]

Is ammunition the probable cause of error? No, there is no support for probable cause, when error as described is commonly produced by poor marksmanship. This is what has been obvious from the first post. You need to project and speculate to make ammunition a probable cause. The fact that the OP did not allude to bad results at shorter distance also suggest error is with marksmanship. Only until the OP provides more information could ammunition be considered the probable cause.

The facepalm to gratification ratio of arguing this point with you has just removed all incentive to continue. There is nothing I can do for you. Keep on keepin' on.

OP: Throw your gun in a vice or use a good rest and see what your gun groups at 100 with your current ammo. Check all your torque for anything pertaining to your optic (you already said you did this, just do it again). Adjust your parallax so that your crosshairs stay fixed on your target and keep a good cheek weld, this will usually but not always be at the point where your crosshairs and your target will be in focus without straining your eyes. Use the pad near the middle of the end joint of your finger (for me it's directly across from where my fingernail begins) and squeeze the trigger squarely, try and draw a line between your trigger and where the stock meets your shoulder in your head and put the tension on the trigger in that direction. Try to feel your finger being in the same position on the trigger before each round is fired. Do not anticipate recoil. Your job is to squeeze the trigger while the gun is on target. Anything that happens after that you cannot change so do not bother anticipating it. Keep a consistent tension relationship between the buttstock and your shoulder, try to memorize how much tension yuo have between each shot when you 'load' your bipod. Keep the rifle and bipod at the lowest setting that will allow you to engage the target. Use as much of the ground and gravity to your advantage that you can. Adjust your cheek piece if you have one to allow you to rest your cheekbone on the cheek rest with no strain of your neck or shoulders at all, while giving a perfect sight picture. Make sure you are not canting the weapon in either direction. When you are laying down keep your feet roughly shoulder width apart with 'duck feet' and make sure you are straight behind the rifle, not angled. Put the stock in the natural pocket that forms between your neck and your deltoid, it should rest on your trap, at least it does for me. Try to keep your eyes open until you see where the shot impacts. This will also help prevent flinching. Just some tips to help you out. But none of this will get you to group if your ammo is shit, so check that first.

Edit: another good tip I have picked up was once you are confident in youor sight picture, make sure you are not using muscle tension to hold the gun on target. Close your eyes and take a couple of breaths, open them and if you are still on target, you should be g2g.

 

[damoncali]

True story: I was pulling targets for a young (teenage) shooter not long ago. He was all over the place - including a few misses. Was he inexperienced? Of course - he wasn't old enough to not be. Was my first thought that he was having trouble behind the gun (poor marksmanship)? Yep. Was it the correct assessment? Nope. His scope was loose. Don't assume.

 

[lash]

Actually guys, missing a 16" target really means that the OP was off by only 8", unless he was aiming at one far side or the other. I don't know about you, but I aim at the center of a target. Just sayin'...

 

[Long Range]

Hey guys, I'm going to go out today again and try a some more shots at 300 yards.

This time I will bring some PPU 168 grain match ammo.
I will also shoot the PPU non-match ammo that I have been and compare.

I watched a few you tube vidoes so I hope to shoot a little better this time. I was doing some bad things like holding the rifle in front of the magazine, not really paying much attention to trigger pull also.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Is ammunition the probable cause of error? No, there is no support for probable cause, when error as described is commonly produced by poor marksmanship. This is what has been obvious from the first post. You need to project and speculate to make ammunition a probable cause. The fact that the OP did not allude to bad results at shorter distance also suggest error is with marksmanship. Only until the OP provides more information could ammunition be considered the probable cause.

I will give you credit. Back against the wall and still stick to your standard BS. I bet there are a thousand posts by you with the same Line of "Build your position BLAH BLAH BLAH .... It could never be anything other than you suck and I can fix you. You're so full of your self your eyes have to be brown. We just looked at there possibly being another possibility with his problem. Could be a nick in the crown of his rifle, ammo, Free floated barrel and etc.... The first thing you put out is your form sucks. As for the bull that a good shooter can shoot crap ammo well is friggin unbelievable. When I get off the space ship, that I am being held on for testing by aliens, the first thing I am going to do is shit can my reloading gear. Obviously it is not needed. I guess we need to get Frank to shut down the reloading threads. Sterling Shooter says you can be a good shooter with any ammo should be the only thread there. The world is wrong and you are right. Fuck you and the bull you spew. Go look up some vids on you tube of people making ridiculous shots with some of the worst form ever seen then stuff your Bull Shit credentials and avatar up your ass. If you would look beyond that frigging mental block of cut and pasting "YOU must build a proper position cuz you suck" and look for another reason someone is having a problem people would probably be more open to a suggestion from you. Some of that may not make sense right now due to the fact some alien has a electric rod stuck into my kidney but you get the point.

 

[Zilla]

I will give you credit. Back against the wall and still stick to your standard BS. I bet there are a thousand posts by you with the same Line of "Build your position BLAH BLAH BLAH .... It could never be anything other than you suck and I can fix you. You're so full of your self your eyes have to be brown. We just looked at there possibly being another possibility with his problem. Could be a nick in the crown of his rifle, ammo, Free floated barrel and etc.... The first thing you put out is your form sucks. As for the bull that a good shooter can shoot crap ammo well is friggin unbelievable. When I get off the space ship, that I am being held on for testing by aliens, the first thing I am going to do is shit can my reloading gear. Obviously it is not needed. I guess we need to get Frank to shut down the reloading threads. Sterling Shooter says you can be a good shooter with any ammo should be the only thread there. The world is wrong and you are right. Fuck you and the bull you spew. Go look up some vids on you tube of people making ridiculous shots with some of the worst form ever seen then stuff your Bull Shit credentials and avatar up your ass. If you would look beyond that frigging mental block of cut and pasting "YOU must build a proper position cuz you suck" and look for another reason someone is having a problem people would probably be more open to a suggestion from you. Some of that may not make sense right now due to the fact some alien has a electric rod stuck into my kidney but you get the point.

^^This

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Hey guys, I'm going to go out today again and try a some more shots at 300 yards.

This time I will bring some PPU 168 grain match ammo.
I will also shoot the PPU non-match ammo that I have been and compare.

I watched a few you tube vidoes so I hope to shoot a little better this time. I was doing some bad things like holding the rifle in front of the magazine, not really paying much attention to trigger pull also.

You might want to record shots at 100 yards too. Also, you might want to think about follow through which is continuing to aim with trigger depressed until recoil has subsided. This will allow you to call your shots. Calling the shot, that's to say, knowing where the sight appeared on the target as the bullet cleared the bore, will give you recognition of where the shot should have hit the target. For example: Shots on call but not right-in-there indicate the sight is adjusted properly but that the rifle moved, possibly from not pulling the trigger smoothly. Shots not on call could indicate the sight is not adjusted to counter for wind and weather conditions. Shots on call and hitting where aimed indicate you have a good zero. Recording the calls and shots in a data book will help you see trends and build confidence. You can call shots from dry fire excercises before shooting live ammunition and, without recoil to masking any movement of the rifle from pulling the trigger, you will understand whether or not you are pulling the trigger smoothly.

You may not be able to plot shots in your data book from shooting at 300 yards without a spotting scope to be able to see the hits on target and thus you will not get as much insight to how to correct for error. If this is the case, you may want to get a feel for all aspects at the 100 yard line.

On your previous adventure did you actually shoot a group at 100? One of your posts referenced a relationship beginning with a 2 inch grouping at 100. I assumed you indeed shot this group. Did you shoot such a group or was this a hypothetical? Remember too, all groups are a collection of misplaced shots that could be caused by a multitude of problems/errors. Smaller groups indicate less error; yet, you may not be able to discern the cause of all error. You can however concentrate on what needs to be accomplished, i.e. sight alignment and trigger control for good results.

BTW, a friend told me he is shooting a SCAR 17 getting under 2 MOA from AE using as issued irons at 100. With GMM a little less than 1.5 MOA.

 

[Long Range]

Shot 12 rounds and here are the results. First I found and lugged a huge piece of heavy board I found about a mile in the hot desert. I am serious about finding out where my shots went, so I decided to lug this heavy thing in 90 degree sun. Next time I'm going to bring water.

This time I watched a couple of you tube videos and tried to make some changes to the way I shoot. I also practiced some dry firing. The wind was very low today. I don't think I did any drastic changes, except to keep my left arm in and not hold the front of magazine.

Here is the large board and the paper in the middle measures 11.5" x 9.5".

I moved my shooting location to get a more straight on view of the target than before. Board was 300 yards out. Ammo was PPU 145 308 ball.



Here is my gun and setup, Scar 17s with atlas bipod. Vortex viper 6x24 FFP scope. I retorqued right before firing.



First 3 shots I did without any paper, they are circled in red. tack marks were old holes. I couldn't believe I shot this grouping. I just aimed at center of that big board.



I setup a piece of paper which made it easier to shoot target and here are the next 3 shots circled in red. The holes are spaced 3" between the two closest holes. So group was 6" between furthest holes.



I shot another 3 shots and here are the results below. Top two holes are 3" apart, bottom to middle hole is 6" apart. Group = 9"



My next three holes below after I adjusted .1 mrad down, I also used a spare magazine to help steady the gun under the grip. I thought this would be my best shots as I was very steady. The two hits on paper were 3 1/2" apart. The other hit way off to the right about 15" away. That shot makes no sense as I was very steady and there was no wind. Could this be the ammo?



What do you guys think I appreciate any feedback. I am happy with these results. The groups were mostly within 6" of each other. What can I expect with this ball ammo?

The biggest problem I have is I am a bit shaky when holding cross hairs over target. I think if I placed a sand bag sock (saw this on youtube), that would steady the rifle 100% and give me better groups. However, isn't this cheating?

 

[ZombieMonkey]

145gr PPU ammo is not going to get you the results you're looking for if you are wanting to shoot small groups. Like many of us have said before, your issue is in part due to the ammo you are using and your admissions of being new to precision shooting and in need of building the proper fundamentals for success. (Sorry Sterling, it's both, don't even start)

Use a rear bag to help stabilize the rear. And no, it's not cheating. Building a stable position will help you get the results and consistency you are looking for. You really could learn a lot by signing up to the Sniper's Hide online training and going through and watching some of the instructional videos.

 

[Long Range]

I have another question and decided to post this separately from above. After shooting those groups which roughly gave me 6" from each other I loaded my gun with PPU match 168 Grain ammo, package says HP BT.

Anyway, I shot 3 shots with everything the same as my last 3 shots above. I thought this ammo would give me better groupings but I was surprised that only 1 shot hit that huge board, and the other 2 shots I could not find anywhere so I think I missed that huge board.

I am kind of confused here. Will the 168 Grain PPU match HP BT need an adjustment that much at 300 yards compared to the PPU 145 FMJ BT?

Is there something wrong with my ammo? The last 12 shots all at least hit the board and pretty centered, these 168 Match had only 1 hit that was low and the other two I could not find anywhere so must have missed.

Here is a picture below of where the only 1 shot hit in red. I aimed for the center of the paper like all the other times.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Long range,

Much improved shooting.

The only advise worth taking in this two pages of internet BS is that of Sterling Shooter. He correctly identified the issue as deficient marksmanship skills. You worked on them, and got vastly better results.

One more thing i can point you to; Parallax. First time i shot at 300yards, i was ashamed that my handload that produced 1/2" or smaller groups at 100yards was shooting 6-8" at 300 yards...Parallax adjustment fixed that issue for me.

DO the following to eliminate parallax error

1. Look through the scope and adjust the parallax (focus knob) until the image is almost clear.
2. Move your head slightly up and down. Does the reticle move with respect to the target? if so, you have parallax error...this will lead you to violate a marksmanship fundamental; consistent point of aim.
3. slowly adjust the parallax knob while while moving your head jusgt slightly...if the reticle stops moving with respect to the target, you are good to go. THe image may be clear or slightly blurry, but you dont need to read the text on the target in order to hit it.

After correcting for parallax, then work on your position, consistent point of aim, sight picture, breathing, and trigger control.

You will notice a vast improvement if you pay attention to these details.

With regards to ammo; the match grade vs crappy ammo will not make you miss the target or have hits 16" apart or anything like that. While they will not produce sub-MOA groups, the groups should be rounded, all in the same place (precision, not accuracy) and respectable (2-3MOA max).

Good Luck and Good Shooting.

 

[ahhshoot]

Long range,

Much improved shooting.

The only advise worth taking in this two pages of internet BS is that of Sterling Shooter. He correctly identified the issue as deficient marksmanship skills. You worked on them, and got vastly better results.

One more thing i can point you to; Parallax.

Funny I told the shooter to check parallax at least twice in this thread and also explained to him how to do so as well as lay out an entire post of fundamentals to work on. There is noone here saying ammo is his only problem. I am saying that he needs to verify his ammo's capabilities at 100 yards and with a rest/vice before he develops expectations for his shooting. Others seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. To acknowledge both ammo and marksmanship as variables rather than only marksmanship is a more realistic viewpoint and better advice for the OP.

Anyway, OP, there is some great improvement here. Yes, verify parallax is set correctly. There could be a good bit of drop between the 145 and 168 but probably not enough to constitute a miss. Just because ammo is labeled 'match' doesn't mean it will be any better or worse in your rifle than one that is not. Some ammo that is not labeled as anything special may shoot phenomenal in your rifle, while other ammo that is labeled match and very expensive might not group at all. Taking the time to find out what works in your rifle (and if you get into handloading, doing thorough load development) is something that should not be overlooked. As well as checking out the videos and training posted on this site. All in all I'd say you are on the right track, and as long as you are having fun and continuing to improve that's all that matters.

 

[Long Range]

With the parallax, I just set it to 300 yards and it looked clear. I tested the 300 yards with my GPS. I must admit that is all I have done.

The way I figured is, I am just trying to hit paper at 300 yards. If parallax is set close and not changed, wouldn't my groupings be OK? I mean, will a parallax that is off actually change how each shot impacts if you don't change it and shoot at the same target?

 

[The Mechanic]

I really can't believe no one has recommended some one else shoot his rifle to verify shooter/or equipment failure.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

PROGRESS!!!!

Long Range, you're getting there. You still have a ways to go but, your targets do show a significant improvement.
Do a little reading about parallax around here on the Hide. There are a couple of videos around.

A rear bag is gonna help you a whole bunch, as will learning to use that bipod. Get or make a bag. A sock 1/2 full of sand is a good start.

You are gonna have to learn a bit about ballistics as well. You stated you dialed down a bit to get two shots in close with the 140 grain stuff, you then went to 168 grain, shot low on one shot and probably yanked the other 2 under the target.

Chances are you are not yet where you can call your shots or even still produce a consistent firing position. You are going to have to work on that and improve your position and the way you are getting behind the rifle. You are going to have to work on trigger control both before and after the gun fires and control of the rifle through the completion of the recoil impulse. These are no easy tasks.

I strongly suggest you subscribe to the Sniper's Hide Video series. It's only $10.00/month and you're a prime candidate. Take a look at the little teaser that shows up with the advertising along the right side of the threads. There are gems in there that you can benefit from.

Most of all, keep shooting. Keep practicing. This ain't no easy sport, it takes dedication, a will to learn, the brains to throw out bad habits and a lot of rounds down range.

Keep at it, dude, you'll get there.

 

[Long Range]

I'm thinking. My last 3 shots with the 145 ammo had one shot really far off to the right, and I know that was impossible as I had the gun very centered on target.

Then my next 3 shots with 168 match ammo were really off. Unless there is something wrong with the ammo, I really wonder what is causing this.

I am wondering if something came loose with my scope, hopefully nothing is wrong with my gun.

When I tightened my scope today I noticed the little hex screws (6 on each ring) seemed to need tightening with my torque wrench. I know for a fact that when I first put the scope on I went around and doubled checked each screw at 25 inch pounds and the torque wrench clicked without moving the screw, this time many turned a small bit before clicking, so they loosened a bit. Since I used a torque wrench it is hard to tell just how loose they were. But I don't think they were that loose.

I wonder if it was possible that those tiny screws loosened enough to throw my aim off last time, as I believe I only checked the big bolts that hold the rings to the gun.

I wonder if I should shoot the PPU 145 ammo again to see if I get reasonable groups before tightening everything down. If I am all over the place than this was likely the problem. Again, I can't see the scope coming that loose as I torqued it 25 inch pounds for the little screws and 35 inch pounds for the big bolts.

Do those little 6 screws that hold the top cap on the rings come loose easily? When torqueing to 25 inch pounds I felt like I was going to break them.

This is just something I have to consider here, but I doubt anything came loose especially after only shooting 12 rounds today after retorque and retightening. The question is how close together will 168 grain vs 145 grain bullets shoot if you don't change anything else?

 

[shovelstrokeed]

With the parallax, I just set it to 300 yards and it looked clear. I tested the 300 yards with my GPS. I must admit that is all I have done.

The way I figured is, I am just trying to hit paper at 300 yards. If parallax is set close and not changed, wouldn't my groupings be OK? I mean, will a parallax that is off actually change how each shot impacts if you don't change it and shoot at the same target?

Well, lets look at that.
Parallax won't take you off the paper if it is somewhere close but, it could, if not correctly set, open a 4" group up to and easy 6". I think you would be ecstatic if you pulled off a 4" group at this point, no?

What is the key to that 4" group? Leaving aside the rest of the picture in terms of physical stuff, you have to be able to point the barrel such that when the gun goes off and the bullet leaves the barrel, it is pointed in the same direction, within 4". Can you really judge where you are holding on that giant sheet of paper? Of course not Establish an aiming point. Put a 1" square in the shape of a diamond out there. Now line up your cross hairs so that the vertical touches the top and bottom points the the horizontal touches the east and west points. Be sure and focus on your cross hairs, just let them appear on the target but keep looking at them. If your parallax is right, they will appear to be in the same plane and this will be easy.

Now, with your newly steady position built from the rear bag, apply pressure to the trigger, straight back. The gun will go BOOM and you will have a hole in the target. Repeat a couple of times and see if I'm right.

 

[Donr13]

I'm thinking. My last 3 shots with the 145 ammo had one shot really far off to the right, and I know that was impossible as I had the gun very centered on target.

Then my next 3 shots with 168 match ammo were really off. Unless there is something wrong with the ammo, I really wonder what is causing this.

I am wondering if something came loose with my scope, hopefully nothing is wrong with my gun.

When I tightened my scope today I noticed the little hex screws (6 on each ring) seemed to need tightening with my torque wrench. I know for a fact that when I first put the scope on I went around and doubled checked each screw at 25 inch pounds and the torque wrench clicked without moving the screw, this time many turned a small bit before clicking, so they loosened a bit. Since I used a torque wrench it is hard to tell just how loose they were. But I don't think they were that loose.

I wonder if it was possible that those tiny screws loosened enough to throw my aim off last time, as I believe I only checked the big bolts that hold the rings to the gun.

I wonder if I should shoot the PPU 145 ammo again to see if I get reasonable groups before tightening everything down. If I am all over the place than this was likely the problem. Again, I can't see the scope coming that loose as I torqued it 25 inch pounds for the little screws and 35 inch pounds for the big bolts.

Do those little 6 screws that hold the top cap on the rings come loose easily? When torqueing to 25 inch pounds I felt like I was going to break them.

This is just something I have to consider here, but I doubt anything came loose. The question is how close together will 168 grain vs 145 grain bullets shoot if you don't change anything else?

Did you loctite the threads? Don't underestimate the shock a round cracking off can have on parts.

 

[Donr13]

Well, lets look at that.
Parallax won't take you off the paper if it is somewhere close but, it could, if not correctly set, open a 4" group up to and easy 6". I think you would be ecstatic if you pulled off a 4" group at this point, no?

What is the key to that 4" group? Leaving aside the rest of the picture in terms of physical stuff, you have to be able to point the barrel such that when the gun goes off and the bullet leaves the barrel, it is pointed in the same direction, within 4". Can you really judge where you are holding on that giant sheet of paper? Of course not Establish an aiming point. Put a 1" square in the shape of a diamond out there. Now line up your cross hairs so that the vertical touches the top and bottom points the the horizontal touches the east and west points. Be sure and focus on your cross hairs, just let them appear on the target but keep looking at them. If your parallax is right, they will appear to be in the same plane and this will be easy.

Now, with your newly steady position built from the rear bag, apply pressure to the trigger, straight back. The gun will go BOOM and you will have a hole in the target. Repeat a couple of times and see if I'm right.

I agree on creating a better aiming point... one suggestion though is to use something about 3-4'' in size at 300yrds. a 1'' target will likely be hidden behind the reticle making it difficult to ensure you are on target.

 

[NV Ranger]

Your showing improvement and that's what counts. I still learn new things about guns, ammo, ballistics, reloading, optics, equipment, etc., almost everyday. Most of it from hands on work after reading something that gives me an Ah Ha moment. Take your time and don't rush yourself. Your starting at the bottom, where everyone starts, and building on each new Ah Ha moment you have.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Having read your last posts I am impressed with your "just do it" attitude. You might however want to use a target which allows for better recognition of a consistent hold. Also, get a Data Book. This is essential to meaningful analysis. My only other comment is call your shots. That shot out to right if called 3 o'clock would have indicated rifle movement possibly from poor trigger control. On the other hand, if called right-in-there, which you may have alluded to, it would suggest you did not counter for the effect of an 8-12 MPH full value changing wind. You said there was a no-wind condition however so who knows? Without having called the shot the only thing we know for sure is that's where the barrel was pointed. This is a reason to shoot 5 shot groups, zeroing from the good shots excluding the bad shots. At any rate, it appears you are working things out. BTW, your grouping size and shapes are consistent with shooter error. As you come to understand what's important to good shooting your groups will become smaller and more well rounded.

 

[lash]

[MENTION=102455]Long Range[/MENTION],
You are now getting some good advice from what I'm reading here. I can tell you that even knowing how to shoot a rifle and hunting successfully for many years, it has taken me a while to improve at long range. All the little errors in things we do at 100 yards or less become magnified and really make a difference when you stretch things out a bit. Things that have been pointed out that I would like to summarize for you:

1) Do provide yourself with a better aiming point. The smaller you aim, the tighter your potential groups could be, all else being equal. Ideally at 300 yards, 2"-3" aiming point maximum.
2) Do make or buy a rear bag. The stability will help to eliminate one more possible reason for bad groups.
3) Do check your scope mount screws and ensure that they are tight, but do not over-tighten the scope rings, as that can damage your scope.
4) Do NOT keep checking and rechecking your equipment in hopes that an equipment fix/upgrade will magically make you shoot bughole groups at 300.
4) Do purchase some good match quality ammunition when you have the money and opportunity. You do not need to shoot it all the time, but it can be used once each outing to keep you on track and help you to separate ammunition fact from fiction. On the negative side, it may show you just what you may suspect. That you need plenty of practice, some good instruction, and some more practice.
5) Do take the opportunity to meet someone who is a known long range shooter (local club? Someone you already know?) and have them shoot your rifle as a reality check.
6) Do NOT lose interest or give up just because you are not instantly getting better. Truth it, it is harder to shoot a semi accurately simply due to the extra rifle movement after you press the trigger. This has been argued on here, but I think that most will agree that there is more follow through required when shooting a semi.
7) Do practice achieving your Natural Point of Aim or NPA with your rifle on a rear bag and bipod, at home in your place. Do some reading on NPA and then practice it without firing, many times.
8) Do practice dry firing while carefully aiming each "shot" as if it is a live shot going down range. Carefully note mentally any movement off of point of aim POA when you break each dry fired shot. Do this a lot!
9) Do be honest with yourself and your true capabilities. Spend the time to evaluate what you are doing and work on things one at a time to create slow and steady progress.
10) Do enjoy yourself and the time you are out there. Have fun.

Edit:
Yes, I know that I have two #4s. Deal with it!

 

[ahhshoot]

[MENTION=102455]Long Range[/MENTION],
You are now getting some good advice from what I'm reading here. I can tell you that even knowing how to shoot a rifle and hunting successfully for many years, it has taken me a while to improve at long range. All the little errors in things we do at 100 yards or less become magnified and really make a difference when you stretch things out a bit. Things that have been pointed out that I would like to summarize for you:

1) Do provide yourself with a better aiming point. The smaller you aim, the tighter your potential groups could be, all else being equal. Ideally at 300 yards, 2"-3" aiming point maximum.
2) Do make or buy a rear bag. The stability will help to eliminate one more possible reason for bad groups.
3) Do check your scope mount screws and ensure that they are tight, but do not over-tighten the scope rings, as that can damage your scope.
4) Do NOT keep checking and rechecking your equipment in hopes that an equipment fix/upgrade will magically make you shoot bughole groups at 300.
4) Do purchase some good match quality ammunition when you have the money and opportunity. You do not need to shoot it all the time, but it can be used once each outing to keep you on track and help you to separate ammunition fact from fiction. On the negative side, it may show you just what you may suspect. That you need plenty of practice, some good instruction, and some more practice.
5) Do take the opportunity to meet someone who is a known long range shooter (local club? Someone you already know?) and have them shoot your rifle as a reality check.
6) Do NOT lose interest or give up just because you are not instantly getting better. Truth it, it is harder to shoot a semi accurately simply due to the extra rifle movement after you press the trigger. This has been argued on here, but I think that most will agree that there is more follow through required when shooting a semi.
7) Do practice achieving your Natural Point of Aim or NPA with your rifle on a rear bag and bipod, at home in your place. Do some reading on NPA and then practice it without firing, many times.
8) Do practice dry firing while carefully aiming each "shot" as if it is a live shot going down range. Carefully note mentally any movement off of point of aim POA when you break each dry fired shot. Do this a lot!
9) Do be honest with yourself and your true capabilities. Spend the time to evaluate what you are doing and work on things one at a time to create slow and steady progress.
10) Do enjoy yourself and the time you are out there. Have fun.

Edit:
Yes, I know that I have two #4s. Deal with it!

If I could add a bit to this good advice, as far as an aiming point at 300, I have found that many reticles either cover up a lot or if you have a small dot you still have some variance of where you could be aiming in that small dot. If you use a corner, you can have a much finer aiming point. Maybe tilt one of those pages to a 45º and shoot groups at each of the 4 corners... I've found upside down triangles, etc to offer much better aiming points than a circle. If you must shoot a circle, I lke to shoot at the very bottom of the circle to make sure it's in the same spot every time.

 

[NV Ranger]

Check out this video. It's a little dated, WWII War Department, but it really covers the fundementals since back then equipment wasn't what it is today.

Sniper Training - YouTube

 

[dmike]

Check out this video. It's a little dated, WWII War Department, but it really covers the fundementals since back then equipment wasn't what it is today.

Sniper Training - YouTube

This made my morning. More please.