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338LM Mythbusting :) VIDEO POSTED

Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr90</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brown dog,
Are the mk ii scopes FFP or RFP? </div></div>

FFP

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought MkII were just made for AI and the only difference between a MkII and a PM2 was the lens coating ? It's the anti-laser coating, internally they are identical.

I know I had a 3-12X MKII from AI that was the same as any other 3-12X PM2...

I can't say on the 5-25X, I am sure one of the AI guys could say, but back in the day here, Tac Pro used to sell Mk2s and they were essentially just AI branded PM2 scopes. </div></div>

Can't say about the internals. You are correct that the anti-laser coating is the only obvious difference (as well as what's written on the scope!).

My only minutely anal point here is that anyone describing the characteristics of Brit Mil PM2s is relaying wikipedia type info. Issue scopes are FFP MK2s. Yes, they can be bought on the civ market via AI -who,clearly, also supply Brit mil. Thus, any scope offered as "ex-issue" that has PM2 written on it is being mis-described. Apologies; I will now switch to decaf.

As an aside, counter-intuitively, I find the MK2s brighter than PM2s in side-by side comparison.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

LMAO well well well..It has come to my attention that over on long range hunting forum the "sponsor" expert is not liking the idea that a NON flatter, faster, further NON Allen Magnum can actually do as the video shows it doing and is attempting to call BS to several details of my thread...Well GOOD JOB "expert"!! You get an A+ in lack of integrity and cowardness to attempt to call BS but not do it in the original thread and forum where you are not a sponsor and can hide behind that. You get an F- in assumptions and knowledge though.
And yes I am fully aware and HOPING that this reply also gets to him. So here goes:

Funny thing is that I have been shooting 2000m+ for a living before you ever even registered on LRH forum yet your the end all say all knowledge base...Doubt It..well in your own little bubble you may be but not in the real world.

Your quotes are in the FF6666 color just so everyone is clear lol

<span style="color: #FF6666">"One other question, how did he measure 2707.7 yards. I may have missed it but I do not believe he offered that information. Unless he is using a Leica Vector or some other military grade range finder I would not put to much stock in the fact he was
actually shooting that far."
"Simply put, unless you have a very high quality instrument to measure straight line of sight from shooting position to target, you are likely not getting an accurate range measurement and I know very few that own equipment that will give accurate
measurements out to 2707 yards."</span>


Well did you miss the class on GPS readings? Check those GPS cords I provided and get back with me. O and you might want to try and expand your people base because I know more people that have Vector IV than I care to acknowledge

<span style="color: #FF6666">"Last thing, shooting a target of that size at 2700 yards on 8x...... Please. I am not one to say you need ultra high power optics but you do need to be able to see your target and have the target large enough that you can hold a quality reticle
hold on the target to make the shot. On 8x, the reticle would completely cover up the target. That may have been something to why he shot as poorly as he did."</span>

Once again knowledge eludes you. See above replies with pictures of reticle and target.

<span style="color: #FF6666">"As far as the Senar expanding well at this range, I call BS here again. This bullet has been tested many times on game and nearly every time the results were that this bullet was far inferior to the SMK as far as consistant bullet expansion. As
mentioned. Goodgrouper did perhaps the most extensive expansion test I have seen with this bullet and at ranged of 1/2 this range, expansion on a hydrated target was extremely inconsistant with many bullets bending and tumbling and showing severe deflection as they penetrated a target."</span>

LMAO yea your right..I shot at location that I have never put a target and found someone elses frangible bullet exactly where my SCENARS impacted..HOLY SHIT what a coincidence!! But seriously you need to shoot more instead of fireforming so many different cases.


<span style="color: #FF6666">"Admittedly, I have never used the Senar bullets much, have no desire to, their BC is only marginally higher then the 300 gr SMK and performance tests have been done over and over again proving they are not a good game bullet"
</span>
Then you probably should keep your mouth closed in regards to direct knowledge of what that bullet can and cannot do then huh? Seems pretty logical to me that things you do not know you should not attempt to speak about.

<span style="color: #FF6666">"I still solidly stand by my comments about the original post of this story, a 338 Lapua will not stay consistant out to anywhere near this range but again my standard of consistant is sub moa"
</span>
Funny thing is all my world travels and demos and such I have NEVER come across any of these mysterious sub moa ELR systems. I only hear about them and the testing they went out and done with their family members.

<span style="color: #FF6666">“As far as the test you propose I perform that you feel needs to be done to support my "Opinion" is not needed. I have tested this with hundreds of shots. This is not opinion I am offering, its based solely on actual shooting I have done with MANY chamberings in this caliber at ranges from 1900 to 3000 yards and probably close to $1000 spent in just ammo componants in this testing alone.”</span>

LMAO well my “Opinion” is you don't have near the shots downrange to offer your “opinion” on this subject being by your own quote above you testing this with hundreds of shots and close to $1000 in just ammo compenents in this testing alone. You need to get a lot more “zero” behind the amount of shots tested before you can offer anything other than your assumptions.

I eagerly await your reply HERE where neither one of us are sponsors because we all know what happens when you go into a sponsors home over there. I use to be there too and talked to you on the phone couple years ago about 375/408 stuff and quickly learned how things were done over there
smile.gif
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Louis,
What the hell were you thinking?
I knew someone with real world knowledge would come along and bust you someday.
grin.gif

I have to send this to Sloan. He may need this bozo's expertise for the next HOG build.
Some folks amaze me by showing everyone that they are idiots and do it in writing.

Edit to add:

Hell even Jimmie is watching this thread for the great comeback.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cheese</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Louis,

I knew someone with real world knowledge would come along and bust you someday.
grin.gif

I have to send this to Sloan. He may need this bozo's expertise for the next HOG build.

Some folks amaze me by showing everyone that they are idiots and do it in writing.</div></div>

LMFAO, thats funny Cheese, all of it. Now I need to go read it over there.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

The MK2 is the MILSPEC issue variant of the PM2. It is essentially the same scope. A LIF type coating will normally degrade the "brightness" of an optical device not the other way round!

Yes, they where offered for sale by a commercial outfit at the Bisley, Phoenix meeting, in boxes and in A1 condition. The seller confirmed that they where all FFP and off military rifles.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Almost $1000?!!?? Wow, whats that come out to a couple hundred shots. Holly friggen shit man. he must be as good as the guy in the movie Shooter.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I read that whole thread on LRH. It was *almost* as entertaining as some here.
wink.gif
Should invite those boys over for a roast-off.

Seriously though, if he's gonna call you out, the least he could do is show up here and do it to your face... uh, screen.

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is plan and simple that bullet is not stable at 2700yrds that is basic and any one that has any idea of how ballistics work knows that </div></div>

From one of the great talking heads over there. It reminds me of the graph of the 308 balistics taht stops and falls strait down at 800 yards.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Apparently some say the attitude is "hostel"(sic)and there are "vulgar" pictures here. Go figure. LRH apparently is a nice,fuzzy,cosy,friendly place.

I like it here. I don't hunt anyway.
cool.gif
Hard to discount a well documented long range shot. I guess a VIDEO isn't worth 1000 words.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>

If you do that I will come to one,LOL.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>


Better not even keep score! We wouldn't want to scar someone for life. After all life goes by without ANY problems-doesn't it?
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

They would show up with the huskemaws and allens and everyone would be fuckin screwed they would win every thing.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>


I think this is a good idea.....I would feel more positive about myself and well, the world would just be a better place....at the end of the match, we could form a circle, hold hands and sing..............

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vo9AH4vG2wA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vo9AH4vG2wA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>


Later, your cracking me up.
grin.gif
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HiCapMag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>


I think this is a good idea.....I would feel more positive about myself and well, the world would just be a better place....at the end of the match, we could form a circle, hold hands and sing..............

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vo9AH4vG2wA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vo9AH4vG2wA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>


Later, your cracking me up.
grin.gif
</div></div>

HiCapMag. You just beat me to it. LOL.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to discount a well documented long range shot. I guess a VIDEO isn't worth 1000 words. </div></div>

You're serious right?
wink.gif


You know we didn't *actually* land on the moon.
grin.gif
If they can fake THAT....

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy M40a2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can someone post the link at LRH. Cant find it.</div></div>

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/300gn-scenar-2700-yards-57137/index7.html

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/new-sniper-record-56236/index15.html


I still waiting for him to come discuss things
smile.gif


And if anyone goes there and reads his post and they are not word for word what I pasted above please let me know because he would have edited his post. I have the original 2 emails with his post.

Thanks
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>


Better not even keep score! We wouldn't want to scar someone for life. After all life goes by without ANY problems-doesn't it? </div></div>

Ya know, Cananda Soccer says if you win by more then 5 goals, it goes down as a loss! Just sayin
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Excellent post. I somehow saw your video the other night and how the groups looked when done with the little dots around the target. It's pretty damn impressive in the wind I was seeing and hearing.

keep up the good work. You showed it could be done.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Nice shooting. I'll bring my muzzleloader and show yall how real ELR shootins done. LOL
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Thanks for the effort in putting the scenario to the test LC, Fredo, and Russ. It was well done and I think people will have a hard time finding a legitimate flaw in the concept. Emphasis on "legitimate".

 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

We should be thanking you, for not being able to fit anything else on your signature tag.
laugh.gif


Stay safe.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read somewhere that the Brit did say that it was perfect conditions with almost no wind. Sounds like it was just one of those once in a blue moon times when everything was in the shooters favor to make some really impressive shots. </div></div>

If the conditions were as stated, once he knew first shot was on target I can see how second and third went down as well...1 2 3. Trained sniper in perfect conditions with HIS set up so we know he was comfortable with the gear and conditions, but still best three shots he will ever shoot! Maybe! LOL!
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

That was an excellent post - it's always nice to see things done locally. I do have a few questions though. (And I am a noob so that means no poking or tormenting me)

Is there any way to solve the issue you had with your scope? (having to shoot at 8-9x)? Does it relate to the use of a different angle base - 20moa, 40moa, etc?

Would 25x have been sufficent to shoot at that range or would even more magnification been preferable?

Is this where 1st and 2nd focal plane reticles come into play?

Thanks
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

A base with the correct amount of slope would have enabled Later to aim dead-on (the crosshairs) at the target. I'm unsure if the cross hair at that range with 25x magnification would have obscured the target or not, I'm thinking that with a FFP scope that it would have. A SFP scope's recticle would remain a constant size so even at 25x magnification you would be able to hold dead-on. The biggest difference between a FFP and SFP is that a FFP reticle will grow in size as you go up in the magnification range, a SFP reticle will remain the same size. Therefore a FFP reticle can always be used to range while a SFP reticle will only work at one magnification unless you have a formula to use to get an accurate ranging at any magnification.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

(10gr over max suggested by VV reloading guide edition 8)

Shot 250gr Scenar 92.5gr VV N560, 3.685 OAL, Federal 215M primer, New Lapua Brass, DTA/SRS .338LM 26", 3100 fps to 2700 yards.

Same conditions, 3.5+ Mil additional holdover.

Difference in holdover for 250gr @ 3100fps (red circles) and 300gr @ 2800 (white circles) They have very similar dope out to 1900 yards.

250red300white338lm2700yrdhold.jpg
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Holy crap so whose the one who bought the Rangefinder? That thing is really expensive.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to stop banning people, I am considering re-writing the rules so nobody can break them. This way, I will never hurt anyone's feelings.

Also you members need to start being nicer too people - see the reputation your getting.

In the future try to be more like me, and suffer fools in silence, calling them out only makes them look bad and we can't have that.

Thanks, I am off to order 60 trophies for the next match, so everyone can be a winner. </div></div>

Thought we were just getting a certificate of participation.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to discount a well documented long range shot. I guess a VIDEO isn't worth 1000 words. </div></div>

You're serious right?
wink.gif


You know we didn't *actually* land on the moon.
grin.gif
If they can fake THAT....

John </div></div>


No we did ACTUALLY land on the moon. There are Lunar Retroreflectors that are in use today disproving the "conspiracy theorist's and other non-believer's. So yes, the video is good enough for me.

The "moon" thing. Click here

Not sure if your post is facetious or YOU have even the slightest doubt in our space exploits. Some actually don't believe.......
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hard to discount a well documented long range shot. I guess a VIDEO isn't worth 1000 words. </div></div>

You're serious right?
wink.gif


You know we didn't *actually* land on the moon.
grin.gif
If they can fake THAT....

John </div></div>


No we did ACTUALLY land on the moon. There are Lunar Retroreflectors that are in use today disproving the "conspiracy theorist's and other non-believer's. So yes, the video is good enough for me.

The "moon" thing. Click here

Not sure if your post is facetious or YOU have even the slightest doubt in our space exploits. Some actually don't believe....... </div></div>

No, totally tongue in cheek... pointing out there will ALWAYS be naysayers no matter how much evidence you provide.

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

jrob300, so true. Even though there are those that doubt the shot could be made-I'll bet none would STAND where the target board is.
laugh.gif
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I'm not impressed.

I know a guy that shoots that far with with a Ruger m77 in 30-06 and a Burris scope. He shoots deer at that distance all day long.
grin.gif
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

I'm not impressed either. I've hit one of those Lunar Retroreflectors with my .338 Lapua AI and a 300 grain SMK. The regular Lapua didn't have the jam, so it had to be AI'd for the shot. I'd post the group, but I fear it violated the rules. I could only get three shots for group.

R.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rman1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not impressed either. I've hit one of those Lunar Retroreflectors with my .338 Lapua AI and a 300 grain SMK. The regular Lapua didn't have the jam, so it had to be AI'd for the shot. I'd post the group, but I fear it violated the rules. I could only get three shots for group.

R. </div></div>

Now, I KNOW this is BS. Those RRF's were planted there by the Russians back in the late 70's after they pierced the living quarters of the USMC base there, with a laser from satellite orbit of the Earth. There were no survivors. The RRF's were placed there to circumvent any retaliation attempt by the U.S. In addition to being able to detect an enemy attack, they have the capability to destroy targets on the Earth with the same laser technology used on the Marine base.

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Retumbo don't cut it. For escape velocity, you have to use US869.

R.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lately, I've had issues with cramming enough Retumbo into the case to get the 300SMK up to ESCAPE VELOCITY!!!
laugh.gif
</div></div>

Available for a limited time, ONLY to certified sniper's, the original 338 Lapua Magnum ESCAPE VELOCITY signature edition cartidge press:

31ZjF8hPoVL_SL500_AA300_.jpg


Batteries not included.

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">#1
Mark_0232.jpg

</div></div>
Hmm... someone could benefit from a flash hider.

But we digress.

John
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

ok, i have a couple legit questions;

Whilst we have seen the results from this, has anyone tried this using 300gr SMK`s instead of the SCENARS? im interested to see the difference with respect to drops and transonic stability at this extreme range.

and secondly, would i be correct in saying that the average group size was more than 2mils? thats about 5 meters or circa 17 feet at this distance... i would really love to see this again but in ideal conditions with no wind to see the group size then... i suspect it would be not that much better, the wind was from 6 oclock no? And even better, would be placing a shielded camera 50m in front of the target to more accurately show where the bullets were landing and actual group size...
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

And the reason this whole hornets next was stirred up in the first place was the '3 hits from 3' shots in a row statement.

and with respect to everyone concerned, the video posted actually proves that the 'nay sayers' were well founded. Out of all the shots taken that day, how many landed on target? So in fact, this proves the 3 from 3 whilst not impossible, IS EXTREMELY IMPROBABLE... as in like winning a lottery... unless of course someone can post a video showing 3 consecutive hits in a row....?

I dont see what else needs to be said here...

 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticFun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A base with the correct amount of slope would have enabled Later to aim dead-on (the crosshairs) at the target. I'm unsure if the cross hair at that range with 25x magnification would have obscured the target or not, I'm thinking that with a FFP scope that it would have. A SFP scope's recticle would remain a constant size so even at 25x magnification you would be able to hold dead-on. The biggest difference between a FFP and SFP is that a FFP reticle will grow in size as you go up in the magnification range, a SFP reticle will remain the same size. Therefore a FFP reticle can always be used to range while a SFP reticle will only work at one magnification unless you have a formula to use to get an accurate ranging at any magnification. </div></div>


So theres no having the best of both worlds that way is there? Either you obscure the target with watermelon sized mildots that you can range with (FFP), or you have the usual pinprick sized dots (SFP) and use a 5k doallr rangerfinder.? I guess in order to make that decision for myself I need to shoot behind both...I need a cheaper hobby.
 
Re: 338LM Mythbusting :)

Good luck finding a hobby as rewarding or relaxing as shooting
smile.gif
As for the 3 hits in 3 shots I would say take a look at the VERTICAL DISPERSION of the rounds fired. I can't remember which but one of the 5 shot groups fired had very very little vertical dispersion. If you completely elminate wind then the horizontal dispersion goes away. However the only way to test this would be to go to the spot where the shots took place, have exactly the same conditions using the same rifle, the same shooter and the same ammunition. Sorry folks but I doubt that will happen. So instead we have these guys go out and prove it's atleast probable yet they aredoig so in worse conditions. They are at a 2,000ft elevation disadvantage and they have winds gusting over 20mph. The fact that they could consistenly get close is amazing. Given time I'm sure they can find the perfect conditions to 100% prove it is possible yet I beleive that won't be enough for some.

Personally I think later should take out a .375CT at that distance and show what a purpose built ELR rifle can do to two man sized targets and a machine gun. It won't prove anything but dn wouldn't it be cool.
 
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