6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

[BlackWhiskey]

I have been doing a bit of research on the subject with a few coworkers of mine (both friends are SWAT snipers, and all three of us have military sniper experience). A mutual sniper buddy is thinking of proposing this idea to his department. He wants to make sure that his argument is sound first, as well as be able to counter any opposition that may be presented.

They currently are allowed to use their own personal rifle and scope for call outs, but are obviously required to use issued FGMM 168s.

The benefits we see for using the 6.5 CM are the obvious advantage in external ballistics, lower recoil (quicker target reaquisition), and higher energy retention at distance.

The counter I hear most often is that LEO snipers rarely take shots outside of 100 yds and the external ballistic advantage will be negated at these distances. My response is that in semi-rural to rural areas there are instances where my colleagues have had to be positioned 300+ yds from the threat. Also, there have been instances of extreme weather where even at short distances the ballistic advantage of the 6.5 CM would have been beneficial if a critical shot was required.

I look forward to your constructive and respectful responses.

Semper Fi

-Cory

 

[TheNewRoman]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I remember hearing 5.56 is a good round for police snipers because it don't over penetrate as much like high calibers, is still lethal, and also accurate within the ranges police snipers far in.

But as for creed more, I would assume it would work very well for the job. But like I said above over penetration, isn't that something you guys need to take note of.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

My opinion is there is no logical reason not to use it other then its not the norm and there may be a lack in a bonded bullet for barrier use.

 

[Mlr75]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

why not a 6. 5 Grendel? if the range is generally inside 500 yards it should do fine, and seems to offer more flexibility if the officer wants to run a gas gun. Maybe just have to throw an upper on their DMR .223. Just curious... still learning. This may be more of a "future weapons" solution.

 

[BlackWhiskey]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I have considered pursuing that direction as well and ran into a couple of issues. The main killer for me though is that the Grendel is very similar to the 308 in trajectory at these ranges, but lacks kinetic energy at any distance delivered by the 308 or the CM. Unless there is a significant increase in external ballistic performance, while at least maintaining terminal effectiveness, I doubt there will be much motivation for change.

 

[fdkay]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I asked this same question here recently.
I personally do not like the .223/5.56 as a primary rifle as there are several documented cases of failure to neutralize (admittedly there are a couple of instances of .308 failure)

This is my feeling:
A properly written SOP/general order that covers the use of suitable factory ammo and caliber/cartridge selection is all you really need.
I contacted Hornady, they told me that they did not conduct penetration tests or any other duty related tests.
They make a 120 grain GMX load, which would be an excellent choice for barrier penetration. Of course for primary use the 120 or 140 amax meets your "match grade" requirement.

Many folks shy away from thinking outside the box. The FBI recommends the .308, it has many good attributes, but I feel that the 6.5 CM would be a superior choice.
You have those that say the 6.5 is advertised as a "high powered" rifle round. Well, what is the .308?

Most of the resistance that I see is the whole "this is the way we have always done it".

To me, the advantages (some of which you listed)
Low recoil
excellent terminal performance
short time of flight (this to me is a big one)

Cons:
Singular source of ammo
shorter barrel life

Good luck. If you are successful, please pm me some details as I would like to pursue it myself.

 

[g7spring]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

Quick 2 cents. I am a huge fan of the Creedmoor and everytime I break one out at an LE demo the response is the same, "that's awesome, wish they'd let us have it". I have mentioned this to a couple of departments. I think the way to go is to talk in terms of the projectile and not the cartridge. Convince your check-writers that you're looking for a 140gr pill @ "x" fps to meet your specified/perceived needs and it just so happens that the Creedmoor does that. I don't know of any other way to break out of the 308/223 mold. For the record, I think the 308 does its thing superbly too. I mentioned this to a friend at Hornady too. Told them that a black box filled with 6.5CM TAP and a "Law Enforcement" tattoo would satisfy a lot of procurement types, and set precident for other departments in the process. He gave me a polite knod, I'm still waiting on that black box.

 

[mtnhntr]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I shoot a 6.5 CM alot the bullet BC's are really great. you might also look at the 6.5x47 Lapua there has been some testing on that caliber for mid range sniping. The accuracy is excellent and the target requisition from recoil is better by far. We shoot iron out to 1350 which is really pushing the limit but have out scored the 308 and all others at that peticular target. Your team will not regret going to the 6.5. Mine is built on a Barker Machine Works M40 reciver 26 inch lildja barrel 1-8 twist Hs precision stock with Barker bottom metal and AI mags. The target is 3 of the first 5 shots out of the rifle. I made 2 sighters and shot this group.

 

[jcallan]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

It usually comes down to the ammo being a factory standard load for LE. With that said Federal is making Gold Metal Match for the 260 now. This might have an impact on how agencies view the 6.5 calibers.

 

[gugubica]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

Don't pitch it as a new cartridge, new is scary.

Pitch it as a better projectiled 308. It is based on the 308 case, same bolt face, same action, same mags. Existing rifles could just be rebarreled and ready to rock.

This trend will not really get rolling until Hornady sees the advantage, though.


And, yes, I said projectiled ...

 

[Mlr75]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

Dang mtnhntr! that thing is a hammer.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I don't see any reason it can't. You just have to be able to justify it to the brass and the jury.

The shift has been to lower-penetration .308. So as long as you have an option that will penetrate barriers, then you will be able to accomplish the task. After that, it will just be your confidence and ability to defend the choice in the courtroom.

Documentation is the key. If no penetration tests have been performed, then you need to perform your own.

 

[BlackWhiskey]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Documentation is the key. If no penetration tests have been performed, then you need to perform your own. </div></div>

Is there a preferred method, or one that you would suggest for conducting these tests?

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

Having a 6.5cm for comps and my work gun is a 308. Personally I don't see a need for a change. Personally, I do not see a huge difference between 6.5cm and 308 until the 500 yard mark. Additionally I don't see you gaining much of anything with the 6.5cm for tactical use vs the 308.

Not trying to start an arguement but please explain or detail how/where the 308 has failed the LE Community.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having a 6.5cm for comps and my work gun is a 308. Personally I don't see a need for a change. Personally, I do not see a huge difference between 6.5cm and 308 until the 500 yard mark. Additionally I don't see you gaining much of anything with the 6.5cm for tactical use vs the 308.

Not trying to start an arguement but please explain or detail how/where the 308 has failed the LE Community. </div></div>

In regards to accuracy and energy/lethality, I think it would be awful hard to argue the 6.5CM has something the 308 doesn't - that LEOs need. 308 has a pretty great track record - and any FTN event likely wasn't due to the cartridge itself.

Lower recoil is a pretty decent argument though.

 

[hrfunk]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I don't see any problem with actually using the 6.5 CM. One consideration does, however, come to mind. If your local LE distributors are anything like ours, they don't seem to realize any rifle cartridges other than 5.56mm and .308 Win even exist. If you have to resort to commercial sources who actually stock the 6.5 CM, there may be a marked increase in cost (even if said commercial claims to offer an LE discount).

HRF

 

[hrt4me]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtnhntr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a 6.5 CM alot the bullet BC's are really great. you might also look at the 6.5x47 Lapua there has been some testing on that caliber for mid range sniping. The accuracy is excellent and the target requisition from recoil is better by far. We shoot iron out to 1350 which is really pushing the limit but have out scored the 308 and all others at that peticular target. Your team will not regret going to the 6.5. Mine is built on a Barker Machine Works M40 reciver 26 inch lildja barrel 1-8 twist Hs precision stock with Barker bottom metal and AI mags. The target is 3 of the first 5 shots out of the rifle. I made 2 sighters and shot this group.

</div></div>

nice shooting!

I've witnessed other new 6.5 Creedmoor rifles fire one-hole groups like that with factory ammo @ 100 yds

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackWhiskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Documentation is the key. If no penetration tests have been performed, then you need to perform your own. </div></div>

Is there a preferred method, or one that you would suggest for conducting these tests? </div></div>

Contact the FBI and get a copy of their testing protocol. You will need ballistic gelatin. It's not difficult. I have assisted in gel tests before. However it's enough of a pain in the ass that I prefer to allow ammunition manufacturers to do it.

 

[swampbuck]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I agree with Turbo54. You are going to have a hard argument that the 6.5 offers somthing the 308 does not. If I was presenting this to my department I would have to find some kind of cost benifit. Without a cost benifit I think that you are dead in the water.

 

[ARGirl]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

These are my first 4 shots out of a brand new barrel at 100yds with factory Hornady 140 AMAX.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackWhiskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Documentation is the key. If no penetration tests have been performed, then you need to perform your own. </div></div>
Is there a preferred method, or one that you would suggest for conducting these tests? </div></div>

Contact Safelite and every other automobile glass dealer that you can find, tell them what dept you are with and that you need some auto glass for penetration tests. They will give you piles of old windshields to shoot thru. DO NOT set up the windshields at a 90deg angle to the shooter, set them up at varying angles and shoot thru them at 5 degree intervals. Make good notes and take good photos to show your higher ups how the 6.5mm projectiles behave thru laminated glass. This will show your dept and you will learn how the 6.5 behaves thru glass barriers (you may be surprised what you find).

 

[BlackWhiskey]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

First off, I am not a LE sniper, and I don't want to appear to present myself as such. I served with 3/7 Scout Sniper Platoon, and currently work as an instructor.

Excellent suggestions from everyone, I really appreciate your input. I will keep you all updated once we get our arguments finalized and conduct tests.

Semper Fi

-Cory

 

[rogers0311]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

Just wondering, how are the termninal ballistics of the 6.5? How do they compare with the .308?

 

[gugubica]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I can attest that they perform fine through windshields at 200 yards. No measurable deflection and plenty of energy.

I put quite a few rounds through glass testing (playing) for a match stage.

 

[Ouch!!]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

I shot gugubica's match and was one of several 6.5 guys shooting 140amax through the window. Center punched at 200yds minimal shrapnel.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: 6.5 CM For LEO Snipers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wondering, how are the termninal ballistics of the 6.5? How do they compare with the .308? </div></div>

My experience hunting, they are much better beyond 150-200 yards. Faster, cleaner kills. I've killed deer to 570ish yards with a 6.5-284. Dead in their tracks with 140 VLDs.