similar, sure, but not the same. some over 2" some over 2", up 1" and one down 3". my point was POI was impacted by little changes. POA was the center of the nearest target for each set. as to repeatibility (dispersion), that is the goal of looking for the node. find a system harmonic that has a repeatable pattern. i'll definitely want to retest, but the results on the large target are clearly a winner for repeatability, regardless of how close/far it was from my POA.
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
to avoid confusion, are you disagreeing with the original point? does change in powder load impact POI? i have said it does. what say you? regardless of your analysis of my image, that is the point of my post. we can debate my ability to shoot elsewhere.
i'm not sure i said there was a drastic POI change, plus that is subjective regardless. i think we are agreeing that components and powder charge matter for POI, so I'm good with that.
ciao.
So I've been lurking around this forum for the better part of a month or so regarding velocities and I’m at a lost. I’m running a Ruger American Predator (22” barrel) with a can that I dropped into a MDT XRS chassis and have been working on load development centered around Hornady’s 140 ELD-M’s. Using H4350, hornady brass and CCI #200, I started out at 41.5gr and worked my way up, however my velocities seem very low compared to others with that length barrel. At 41.5gr I was hovering around 2,425 and have since worked my way up to 43gr moving at an average of 2,530 with no pressure signs, but seemingly very low velocities. Thinking it could be my chronograph or barrel, I fired some factory Hornady 140 ELD-M rounds and averaged 2,640.
The only thing I am very happy with is my accuracy with my loads, seated .020 off the lands at 2.223 and COAL 2.846. Picture below is 43gr of H4350 averaging 2,530 at 100 yards. Anyone have any suggestions on where to go from here?
The only thing I am very happy with is my accuracy with my loads, seated .020 off the lands at 2.223 and COAL 2.846. Picture below is 43gr of H4350 averaging 2,530 at 100 yards. Anyone have any suggestions on where to go from here?
love my predator. how many rounds down the tube. Possible to speed up if its a new rifle.
Ive got about 300-400 rounds through it thus far. Im very happy with the accuracy for a factory action with my loads. I plan on taking it out to around 1,300 yards at my brother in laws farm. Since it’s shooting so well I may just keep using that load and see if the velocity increases over time like you said.
I am not running the ELDM, but I loaded some Hornady 140 HPBT for my son's RAP and I have them running a little over 2700 with 41 grains of Rl16 in Prime brass with CCI200s. Stupid accurate for such a cheap rifle. We have his in a Magpul hunter stock.
Interested in seeing your results. I’m planning on switching to the lighter 123 eldm for next match season.
Well I loaded up some rds with the following:
6.5 Staball 44.7-45.8grs in .3 increments
Loaded to 30 thousands off lands
123gr ELDM
Cci 450
Lapua 1x fired brass
Same for 123gr SST
Also had shooter world precision rifle powder
Loaded same brass and everything except for powder.
Loaded 39.0-41.7grns at .3 increments.
Taking both out this weekend. Will post results.
Doc
6.5 Staball 44.7-45.8grs in .3 increments
Loaded to 30 thousands off lands
123gr ELDM
Cci 450
Lapua 1x fired brass
Same for 123gr SST
Also had shooter world precision rifle powder
Loaded same brass and everything except for powder.
Loaded 39.0-41.7grns at .3 increments.
Taking both out this weekend. Will post results.
Doc
If I can add my own personal experience with 6.5Creed...
Got 3 different rifles in 6.5CM. (Ruger RPR Gen2, Tikka T3xVarmint and a Bergara HMR)
I only used Nosler RDF 140gr and Peterson brass for the 3 rifles, with H4350.
The prefered loads were:
41.9gr for the RPR with Winchester WLR primers
42.0gr for the Tikka with CCI BR4 primers
42.2gr for the Bergara with CCI BR4
My jump from the lands is quite big, 0.090" for the tikka. I have to check my notes as I don't recall the jump by heart for the RPR and the Bergara. But I use the same COAL for the Bergara than the Tikka, as I still owns both rifles, and my girfriend is shooting the Bergara so I prefer to have the most same parameters as possible, easier for my brain
All these loads were giving me around 1/2 - 3/4 MOA, and SD's of 10 or less (Except for the tikka, I still struggle to find what's wrong with my SD's).
Got 3 different rifles in 6.5CM. (Ruger RPR Gen2, Tikka T3xVarmint and a Bergara HMR)
I only used Nosler RDF 140gr and Peterson brass for the 3 rifles, with H4350.
The prefered loads were:
41.9gr for the RPR with Winchester WLR primers
42.0gr for the Tikka with CCI BR4 primers
42.2gr for the Bergara with CCI BR4
My jump from the lands is quite big, 0.090" for the tikka. I have to check my notes as I don't recall the jump by heart for the RPR and the Bergara. But I use the same COAL for the Bergara than the Tikka, as I still owns both rifles, and my girfriend is shooting the Bergara so I prefer to have the most same parameters as possible, easier for my brain
All these loads were giving me around 1/2 - 3/4 MOA, and SD's of 10 or less (Except for the tikka, I still struggle to find what's wrong with my SD's).
Neck turning first timer here. what do you guys run on wall thickness. my measurent with the ball gauge is 0.0131" I run a Forster Bushing die and cant remember what bushing is in it, but right now I'm wondering how much if any more to take off the necks.
Will be loaded for 123 Flatlines. thx.
Will be loaded for 123 Flatlines. thx.
Am I missing something here. Decided to take Frank's advice and try 130s. Loading for a Factory RPR so 24" tube.
Hornady brass. CCI GMM Large Rifle. H4350. 130 ELDm.
The new Hornady manual gives me a max charge of 42.8 gr at the 2700 mark. Which seems low in the velocity department.. I push 140s at 2700.
Worked up the ladder today the max published load gave me a MV of 2848. Is there a reason their data is so low?
Curious what velocity you guys have beat luck with the 130s?
Hornady brass. CCI GMM Large Rifle. H4350. 130 ELDm.
The new Hornady manual gives me a max charge of 42.8 gr at the 2700 mark. Which seems low in the velocity department.. I push 140s at 2700.
Worked up the ladder today the max published load gave me a MV of 2848. Is there a reason their data is so low?
Curious what velocity you guys have beat luck with the 130s?
I shoot Berger 130 vld’s, Lapua brass using both H4350 and Rl 16 and the last year mostly RL 16. Out of a custom rifle with all the usually goodies I get around 2920 to 2950 depending on temp using H4250. Using RL 16 getting 3000 to 3010. I’m at 43.8 grains with either powder.
I’m guessing the reason book value is lower is because there are many variables between rifles and also the way people reload so they have to be conservative.
Yeah I know my data will never match up to their just curious why I am 100+ FPS faster than what they said I should be. I am usually always slower with my Factory rifles. Wasn't sure if it were a typo on their end or what.
Just consider yourself lucky, you have a fast barrel. I also have some rifles I can’t get to match the published data also. I’ve got one I can’t reach the velocity of what a factory load gives me. Still trying to figure that one out.
I’ve had good luck with 123gr Scenars, 130gr VLDs, and 130gr AR Hybrids launched at 2900 - 2975 from my 24” Bartlein barrels. In those bullet weights, I prefer Varget, but did just recently work up an accurate load using R16 and 130gr AR Hybrids. Haven’t had the opportunity yet to verify velocity.
This is a ten shot group. Subtract 1” from shown BTO. That figure includes my Sinclair hex nut comparator.
Here is 5 shots at 900 with 123gr Scenars pushed to 2940 with Varget
Howdy all.. just started load developement on my howa 6.5 cm. 1:8 and 24". I have on hand 130gr berger hybrids, and hornady 140 eldms. As far as powders i have a bunch of staball 6.5 and on the fast side i have a ton of reloader 15. Anyone have any experience or suggestions with these particular components ?
So I switched powder lots of H4350 and my velocities went up significantly. Currently getting 2820 with 140 VLD using 42.0 grains of H4350. I'd like to drop that to 2750 or so. I'm thinking dropping to 41.2-41.5 grains. Any suggestions. I'm leaving for hunt in 2 days so unfortunately don't have time to do extensive load development. Basically have time to pick a load and verify speed once.
I have seen the same happen in the past. I just lowered my powder charge so the velocity remained the same and went forward for eight pounds. NO problem.
The 130's are garbage. You should send them to me for proper disposal
Just kidding. They are great bullets and shoot good with just about any powder charge. With that bullet you can use either powder, and the 140's I would stick to the 6.5 StaBall. You can use RL15 but velocity will be slow.
I have not used either powder in 6.5 Creedmoor yet, I'm sure there are reloading books that list those powders. I'm guessing you will end up around 38gr of RL15 with the 130's. There is a thread in this section that talks specifically about 6.5 StaBall and the 6.5 Creedmoor. Use the search functionality I'm sure you will find it.
I was able to get a bunch of 123 scenars and pushed them out of a 22” gas gun with amazing results they other day. Grabbed the wrong tripod for the lab radar but with 5 rounds at 500 yards they show great promise
While waiting to go to therapy for my elbow today I went to the range. Had to shoot from a caldwell fire control since I can't get my rear bag under the gun with my arm. Slick bench tops so kept having to move it. Wanted to see how much better my sd is since switching to the intellidropper. For hornady brass and dies I'll take it. Not match winning loads but neither is the nut behind the rifle
140bthp hornady
Hornady brass
43.2 h4350
Bto-2.690
22 inch Columbia River arms barrel with 360 rounds at beginning of session.
140bthp hornady
Hornady brass
43.2 h4350
Bto-2.690
22 inch Columbia River arms barrel with 360 rounds at beginning of session.
Attachments
Really strange, I am reloading once fired Hornaday brass in 6.5 and going the extra step to make sure things are consistent, measuring every round etc. Getting SD's in the mid 30s. Shoots very nice at 100 but I know at distance it's going to suck. Are there elements of the ammo and rifle combination that could be contributing to such a poor standard deviation?
If you have not weight sorted your Hornady I highly recommend it.....you will be shocked. This is why I now only shoot Lapua at ELR. Your suspicions of issues farther out are not wrong IMO......drove buddy and I nuts for a few trips b/f we went back to Lapua. If we wanted to take the time to weight sort which we don't I'm sure it would be fine, but if you are doing that already and still getting those kind of SD's that would be another thing....weighing?
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Oil?
Where in the world of reloading does oil enter into the picture?
Help a fella understand why someone would or could have oil > IN < the case neck???
'I'm going to need some pliers and a set of 30 weight ball bearings. C'mon guys it's so simple maybe you need a refresher course....it's all ball bearings these days! Now you prepare that Fetzer Valve with some 3 in 1 oil and some gauze pads!'
You can also substitute a Kneuder valve in place of the Fetzer.
However, you now require the use of a Baten Switch to control the actuator.
Yea but who got time for dat?
Do you weight or capacity measure them? I'm at 15 which isn't terrible so I'm not too concerned but if I get bored while off work I might do it
I weigh them, but after reading Nambi's experiment on weight relation to capacity plus his data on various Hornady spreads it helped me connect the dots pretty quickly on what was going on....plus chatting with another shooter in my sphere about the issues after the brass swap. My Lapua SDs were 5 at initial load dev. Then watching my buddy go through exact same experience we both smirked and said 'well back to new batch of Lapua'. Until the last couple of months I didn't spend a ton of time at 1 mile, but now it's all I feel like doing so the brass issue at longer distances is a recent discovery for *me*.
My spread on Lapua new out of box was .98g from lightest to heaviest.....less than 1g perdy impressive. With Hornady 2x fired/deprimed/cham/deb it was over 5g from lightest to heaviest.
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I thought Kneuder valves only have a preset of 5, so an SD of 10 is past the threshold of the torque multiplier and dazzle spigot! So yeah...
I'm gonna just cut out the Hornaday equation and do Lapua and see what happens.
Yes, that's true in a normal installation.
However, by installing a constipator relief, you can add another 6.5° of Filangi bypass without affecting drop.
Splash is still a concern depending on cutoff length and taper settings.
This is why you never push....splashbacks. Let gravity's pull perform it's magic work and natural tapering occurs at proper velocities. Trust.
It's kinda infuriating when neither one of you want to admit that splash-back is inverse proportional to the centerform quadratic properties of Gamukies theorem. So.... what it all means is set the die to -0.025 spacing. This will deliver perfect groups under martian not earths gravity. But of course we all have to make it complex so a noob will come in here and get their brain frazzled. Nothing is simple these days. Good job...no really.
And why are we discussing taper settings on Filangi bypass when it's only applicable to 338LM improved? WTF!
LOL. I haven't seen that movie in 20 years or more. I may have to watch it again sometime soon
I never dry bone, lol.
I think it might be a neck tension issue, with my redding resized FL bushings I am only going down .001 so I am going to try .002 to get more tension. It's all about the tension sometimes.
Had a lot of Shooter World powder on hand. So I decided to mess around with it.
Precision Rifle (S062)
Loaded from 39.0-41.7 in .3 increments.
40.5 and 40.8 gave me best accuracy
.221 MOA
Lapua 1x fired brass
CCI 450 primer
123gr ELDM bullet (30 thousands off lands)
2.182 to OG.
2.771 COAL
Average fps 2946 using magnetospeed sporter.
SD 9fps
ES 24fps
Precision Rifle (S062)
Loaded from 39.0-41.7 in .3 increments.
40.5 and 40.8 gave me best accuracy
.221 MOA
Lapua 1x fired brass
CCI 450 primer
123gr ELDM bullet (30 thousands off lands)
2.182 to OG.
2.771 COAL
Average fps 2946 using magnetospeed sporter.
SD 9fps
ES 24fps
Doc, dump that 450 primer and try some 205m or br's. You drop those numbers I'm fairly certain.
Hello all, I started reloading for my 26" 6.5cm this year due to the ammo shortage (now I get to deal with the powder/primer shortage). I've been using the Gordon Reloading Tool and have put together sub-10 SD loads with lapua brass, 210M, and H4350.
I'm building a 16.5" for a light/handy suppressed hunting rifle based on other threads I've seen showing 26-2700fps with some lighter pills. My question is if I should look into a different powder (RL17/varget perhaps) or magnum primers to help with the speed. GRT doesn't show much of a difference between 4350/RL17/RL26/varget, and is estimating about 94% powder burn. I have a bunch of 140eldm for my 26" but am looking at the 127LRX and 120eldm for hunting with the shorter tube. 42gr h4350 looks like it will get me close to 2650, but my question is if it would be worth looking at magnum primers or a different powder to help get a little more, or if anyone has loaded similarly.
I'm building a 16.5" for a light/handy suppressed hunting rifle based on other threads I've seen showing 26-2700fps with some lighter pills. My question is if I should look into a different powder (RL17/varget perhaps) or magnum primers to help with the speed. GRT doesn't show much of a difference between 4350/RL17/RL26/varget, and is estimating about 94% powder burn. I have a bunch of 140eldm for my 26" but am looking at the 127LRX and 120eldm for hunting with the shorter tube. 42gr h4350 looks like it will get me close to 2650, but my question is if it would be worth looking at magnum primers or a different powder to help get a little more, or if anyone has loaded similarly.
I'm getting between 2950-3000 for 123gr ELDM and SST. With a less than max charge.
That's out of a 24" tube.
You should get high 2700s to low 2800 if I did my math correctly.
Doc
In my expeeiwnce, magnum primers have thicker cups and about the same “spark”. That helps to contain the higher pressure (65,000 psi vs 60,000/58,000 psi) of a magnum cartridge.
Probably not universally true, but i have found that switching between standard and magnum primers for midrange cartridges made little difference to speed. [Maybe my magnum primer batch was a little anemic.]
Still best to reduce load when switching primer type or primer batch - and working up again.
Would recommend a double base powder for your short barrel hunting rig. Multipe powders you can choose from. They usually produce the best speed. Also try Superformance and RL26. Varget will probably not maximize speed, but tends to produce accurate results (good groups).
QuickLoads could give you some ideas of what powder is best in such a short barrel.
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