The Hornady loading manual (11th Edition) lists the following StaBall 6.5 loads for 147 ELD-M through 153 A-Tip Match bullets:
2700 ft/sec 43.8 gr
2650 ft/sec 43.0 gr
2600 ft/sec 42.2 gr
2550 ft/sec 41.4 gr
2500 ft/sec 40.5 gr
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2700 ft/sec 43.8 gr
2650 ft/sec 43.0 gr
2600 ft/sec 42.2 gr
2550 ft/sec 41.4 gr
2500 ft/sec 40.5 gr
Oh there is also a Sierra reloading app featuring their bullets and common powders including Staball
Awesome! Will check it out. That said I almost never go by the book
. Anyone have any empirical data? I lied. It was Superformance I was remembering, not Staball in the Sierra app. Sorry.Awesome! Will check it out. That said I almost never go by the book
I would guess you are trying to avoid load development.
My normal load is 140 Berger LRHT and 42.5gr of H4350. They are god damn tacks in my 26” 7.5 PVA. That said I have a ton of the ST6.5 from back in a Covid and it’s all I could get…. Since it’s a slower powder than H4350 though hell I should I try it w the heavier bullet.
Thank you. I have all this data too. I wanted to know if anyone had good empirical real world data and experience w the loads.
I had real good luck with staball for my 130gr otm as far as accuracy, but my sd is lower with h4350. In fact, it was just as accurate a load as 4350 or anything else for that matter. For my 6cm with a 108gr hpbt, the staball produces both accurate and low sd.
Ball powders traditionally have smaller SD when loaded in upper pressure ranges, my limited experience in tinkering with it in 22cm and 6gt anyway.
Yeah, the staball seems to like to run on the higher end as well.
Dang, I wish I had read this three days ago, when I set up a ladder test with StaBall starting at the Starting loads (and not getting near the top as I am always looking to use the minimum loads in my target rifles) My first experience with STaBall by the way. Been using Superformance and it does not seem to care whether its hot or not, shoots good in my 6.5’s. I live in a year round semi moderate climate so temperature insensitivity is not that big of an issue.
I tend to start my load development midway between min and max and then move up. I am not bothered with approaching max charge since I virtually always load longer seating depths than SAAMI spec.
Essentially I want to find a relatively fast accurate loads.
I just got some 140 gr ELDM’s and am loading those at a BTO of 2.22 and a COL of 2.84 vs spec at 2.8 or 2.81. That gets me a tad closer to the lands and also a bit of a safety cushion. Once I reach max I will load 1 round at max plus .2 gr powder and another at .4 gr over max.
It’s funny, but I find handloading to be relaxing. I have often referred to it as being like knitting for me. I take my time, double check everything and I can’t imagine a more primitive way to do it than I do lol. My one tip o the hat to modern tech is a digital scale. Oh, and I keep most of my data on spreadsheets.
I usually recommend making small batches but during the Covid shutdown I loaded enough ammo to start WWIII lol
I usually recommend making small batches but during the Covid shutdown I loaded enough ammo to start WWIII lol
I have noticed that while trying to remove the primer or full length sizing, for some of the cases, I need to pull the press's level very hard to get it done. The cases have been shot 1-4 times (can't tell which is which since I put them in the same mix). I did lube the inside of the neck prior. Does this mean it's time to anneal them?
Harder than previously?
What are you using for case lube? Is the base of the case up to the shoulder getting sufficient lube?
Yes harder than previously. The ones that have never been shot can go through the full size die effortlessly. Yes I lube the outside of the case as well.
An unfired case should effortlessly go through a die. Annealed will size easier than non annealed. Proper amounts of case lube is important. The chamber to die fitment can also cause more than normal sizing force needed.
And to confuse matters even more, too much lube will produce deformations in the brass
LoL
I use lanolin and 99% alcohol mix. Sprayed on the outside and I dip the necks into carbon powder immediately before resizing.
I run lanolin, but have found graphite to give no noticeable difference in anything other than slightly lighter seating pressures.
I rub out the graphite with alcohol and swap before seating. But then I coat my bullets with hBn. So I am sure that has a similar effect lol.
I used to use my lanolin/alcohol mix on the inside of the necks but my powder sometimes wanted to stick to it. If you do lube the inside use a swab and then swab it afterwards with alcohol to clean it out to prevent any after effects from the lube.
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I am not familiar with that, so I can't comment, but pressure required to resize a case is a relative thing. I am not sure what you mean by a lot of pressure. I don't want to say anything that will cause you to get a case stuck in a die, but if you are properly using a good lube, I doubt that there is a problem to worry about. As far as annealing is concerned, I anneal after every firing. Some folks never anneal. I doubt that annealing will have much affect on the amount of pressure required to resize.
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I did a search on this thread and didn't get any hits so I'll ask here.
Anyone use/have experience with the Berger 153.5gr Long Range Hybrid? I'll be using this in an 8-twist Bergara and loading with either RL 17 or H4350 (that's what I have on hand). Objective is 600 to 1000 yards target. Berger stability app says it'll be stable at the speed I'm trying for 26-2700fps.
Any info/advice appreciated...tia.
Anyone use/have experience with the Berger 153.5gr Long Range Hybrid? I'll be using this in an 8-twist Bergara and loading with either RL 17 or H4350 (that's what I have on hand). Objective is 600 to 1000 yards target. Berger stability app says it'll be stable at the speed I'm trying for 26-2700fps.
Any info/advice appreciated...tia.
I'm new to the 6.5 CM and I see a good number of you posting the use of Amax bullets. I take it that this is the Hornady Amax; however, I can't find that Hornady makes a 6.5 Amax bullet. According to the Hornady online catalog they only make a .30 cal. Amax. What am I missing? Thank you,
Amax was dropped, look for Eldm or Atip. There was a problem with poor material selection for the plastic tip which melted away at long range and affected BC’s. But a lot of people still are burning through their stock (for example my brother who has 3000 of them). Essentially functionally equivalent to the Eldm supposedly with a material change to the plastic tip and a rebranding moving forward as I understand it.
Since most shooting is 600yd or less before the bullet tip melts, why worry, just shoot them. That being said, I’ve watched several Hornady podcasts, they come across as sharp guys. But they must be idiots to have missed this. You take the stagnation pressure and the Mach number and air density and look up in a table to find the temperature and easily find that the temperature is above the melting point of delrin. Boneheads to miss that and go into production with long range bullets.
I mean seriously even a .22 has a ring of vaporized lead around the target. How do you miss this? Every exposed lead tip rifle bullet has vaporized lead deposited around target paper, everybody has seen it. How do you miss that? Heard of the SR-71 leading edges glowing orange hot when it flies, and it’s at 80,000 feet with almost no air? Let’s go into production for a few years with plastic tips that melt, wait for a bunch of complaints, improve the product with something that should have been foreseen in design and engineering and Testing, then fix it and phase out the old stained product name because it is so screwed up the long range shooting community won’t use it anymore. Sarcasm alert.
I mean seriously even a .22 has a ring of vaporized lead around the target. How do you miss this? Every exposed lead tip rifle bullet has vaporized lead deposited around target paper, everybody has seen it. How do you miss that? Heard of the SR-71 leading edges glowing orange hot when it flies, and it’s at 80,000 feet with almost no air? Let’s go into production for a few years with plastic tips that melt, wait for a bunch of complaints, improve the product with something that should have been foreseen in design and engineering and Testing, then fix it and phase out the old stained product name because it is so screwed up the long range shooting community won’t use it anymore. Sarcasm alert.
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Yeah, I also listened to the Hornady guys podcasts, up to the point that I head them explaining the Magnus effect in an incorrect way. At that point I stopped listening to them and went to Applied Ballistics podcasts and ordered all of their books.
I'm unable to forgive professionals, making bad explanations of basic physics to their audience. I then hear during different courses that the magnus effect causes spin drift, which is not true.
Hornady has an excellent propaganda and sales department...which seems to work very well, all those new cartridges, providing the world's best performance...beating every cartridge on the market is proclaimed, according to Hornady...so special the military may adopt them.
Before discontinuing the Amax, it was used to set accuracy records at 600 and 1000 yds in 6 mm Dasher. So the bullet points melted perfectly to help these guys set records? Is the 6.5 Creedmoor better than the 260? Probably not. But I have several 6.5 Creedmoors, and like it in the AR10, because shorter COAL. But in a bolt gun, it's nothing special...unless you run it to 80,000 psi in hybrid cases..but that's true of the 260, 277 Fury, or 7mm-08...
Before discontinuing the Amax, it was used to set accuracy records at 600 and 1000 yds in 6 mm Dasher. So the bullet points melted perfectly to help these guys set records? Is the 6.5 Creedmoor better than the 260? Probably not. But I have several 6.5 Creedmoors, and like it in the AR10, because shorter COAL. But in a bolt gun, it's nothing special...unless you run it to 80,000 psi in hybrid cases..but that's true of the 260, 277 Fury, or 7mm-08...
In general I believe they were developed more for 6.5 prc. You may want to check out the 140 hybrids or the 144s. That said I do have load data but the high bc 150 SMK for 6.5cm. Not exactly what you’re looking for but close…
There is a number at Berger you can call and get load data. I have used it before long ago for a different cartridge. The guy that answered was very helpful.
660-460-2802
I recently received load data from Berger via email just a week ago.
I have used RL 17 in 6.5 Creedmoor with 147 gr ELDM, Hornady uses the the same powder charge for 147 gr and 153 gr Atips...their max load is 40.1 gr for those bullets with RL 17 velocity 2650 fps... I went to 40.8 gr all the way up to 41.7 gr. For 147 gr eldms and for 140 gr Nosler 42.1 gr RL 17 around 2850 fps fired in AR 10, 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel.
Not a favorite powder, although some loads were accurate.
Not a favorite powder, although some loads were accurate.
Good information, thanks. I decided to start at 40.0 for the 153.3 long range hybrids. So that should be a reasonable start point. Will chrono and see how groups are tomorrow.
Have any tried 2000-MR in 6.5Creed with the 153's or 156's? I have seen really good success with that I a .308 with the 185 juggernaut. I was able to get a good load with N560; however crunch factor for sure when seating bullets. I ASSuME that is just going to be the case with that big of a bullet out of a Creedmoor.
I shot Berger's published load data with N560
Temp 81
Lapua SRP
CCI450
Berger 153 LRHT
26" Bartlein 7.7 twist
40.6 2475
40.9 2512
41.2 2512
41.5 2543
41.8 2564
42.1 2579
42.4 2608
42.7 2639
43.0 2656
43.3 2670
43.6 2698
43.9 2698
44.2 2717
44.5 2763
44.8 2762
No signs of pressure in my rifle; however, not much more powder is going to fit. Berger says 44.8 was 105%, quickload says 101.8% based on the measured case volume.
I have a really solid load using 43.7 low SD/ES and very accurate. Would be interested to see what powders anyone else may have had success with.
I shot Berger's published load data with N560
Temp 81
Lapua SRP
CCI450
Berger 153 LRHT
26" Bartlein 7.7 twist
40.6 2475
40.9 2512
41.2 2512
41.5 2543
41.8 2564
42.1 2579
42.4 2608
42.7 2639
43.0 2656
43.3 2670
43.6 2698
43.9 2698
44.2 2717
44.5 2763
44.8 2762
No signs of pressure in my rifle; however, not much more powder is going to fit. Berger says 44.8 was 105%, quickload says 101.8% based on the measured case volume.
I have a really solid load using 43.7 low SD/ES and very accurate. Would be interested to see what powders anyone else may have had success with.
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I have it’s a little fast and pressures out before you get acceptable velocity with 140gr class bullets. A better and actually good option is the MR 4000 although I have only used it with 140-143gr class bullets but it’s second only to Reloder 26 for pure speed. There is some data in the Speer manual but only up to 140gr bullets but that should give you an idea on where to start and what’s possibl.
Has anyone done any testing to prove or disprove the claim of a .697 G-1 BC on the 147 ELD-M ?
Hit a mile 3x today at Arena Training Facility.
Lapua SRP brass
140gr Berger Hybrid Target
CCI 450
42.3gr of H4350
2840fps out a 26” barrel MPA PMR Pro 2
Was a good day. 1223 and 1350 was consistent, easy work all day.
Lapua SRP brass
140gr Berger Hybrid Target
CCI 450
42.3gr of H4350
2840fps out a 26” barrel MPA PMR Pro 2
Was a good day. 1223 and 1350 was consistent, easy work all day.
Attachments
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BC is not a constant, but a variable...you have to test it with your barrel & its twist rate, with your chronograph, your rangefinder, plus all the varying conditions, like temperature, attitude, muzzle velocity, etc.... result in a varying BC.
Look at how Sierra assigns BC and how much it changes as the bullet velocity slows down from say 3000 fps to 1500 fps...the rate at which it slows is a big variable...harder for a bullet to get through dense cold air at sea level...than light hot air at 5000 ft.
It’s a good start.
Hornady has an Infinition radar like AB does. .697 G1 is for Mach 2.25 and above, not an average (unless talking ~300 yards and in).
Banded BC info here:
Ballistic Coefficient - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
A-Tip®, ELD® Match, and ELD-X® Ballistic Coefficient Values Hornady originally published “800 yard”* average Ballistic Coefficient (BC) values for ELD-X and ELD Match bullets. This was done to provide the most usable BC from a trajectory prediction st...
Hornady radar, also shows how twist rate affects BC...on their match bullets, Example an 8 twist is substantially better than a 10 twist or even a 9 twist for 30 caliber LR shooting. And use G7 BCs for long range to more closely resemble the bullet flight path especially past one thousand yds.Hornady has an Infinition radar like AB does. .697 G1 is for Mach 2.25 and above, not an average (unless talking ~300 yards and in).
Banded BC info here:
Ballistic Coefficient - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
A-Tip®, ELD® Match, and ELD-X® Ballistic Coefficient Values Hornady originally published “800 yard”* average Ballistic Coefficient (BC) values for ELD-X and ELD Match bullets. This was done to provide the most usable BC from a trajectory prediction st...www.hornady.com
Any shooter should be checking his own dope. If you rely on a calculator then you should know how to adjust for specific circumstances, specific bullets, specific rifle, and all the affecting attributes of weather, wind elevation, relevation (lol). There are numerous books that do an outstanding job explaining ballistics. Required reading for the serious shooter.
Gonna say that Sierra bullets always seem to shoot best and most reliably at long range than any other, including some that cost a whole lot more. (At least since I started using them in 1972)
In 224, it was berger and eld that performed best for me. I have yet to gain the experience in 6.5 cm to make a judgement. In 30-06 when the ballistic tips came out (nosler) I became all about them. Great performance!
For hunting, I prefer the ancient Nosler Partition. Never had one fail, always leave a blood trail an individual who is sight challenged could follow with his eyes closed. Using a Nosler Accubond with a .35 Whelen, I did take a shot up the tail pipe of a six point, in 2016. Missed the tail pipe by about two inches. Took out an entire hindquarter, most of the rib cage and lodged against the should after pretty much destroying any meat on that side. Nearly killed myself on a very cold January day, dragging him out of the swamp. Started out dressed for 15 degree temperatures, got to the truck in a tee shirt. You don’t want to know my health for the next three days. Still the bullet, way too heavily constructed for white tail, performed beautifully.
The story has still not been finished on Berger Hunting Bullets. In my 6.5 they perform very close to VLD in accuracy and performance. All but to the point of being interchangeable. However, in hunting with my .25-06, their 115 grain gives great accuracy and fine velocity. However, terminal performance is spotty. Year previous, got a nice little 4 point freezer deer. He did not go far, left a fair blood trail. This past year, it put down a freezer deer at the shot. (Always happens in the tv shows, but of the deer I have killed, rarely). Next i got this nice 8 point. I had been looking and waiting for him. Bullet hit in the right spot, made a total mess of the boiler room, deer ran about 20-30 yards and dropped. But did not penetrate and zero blood trail. The bullet was recovered on the far side jsut under the skin. See pictures below. He is the deer on the left with the brown strip on his neck. As I said, made a real mess of the deers heart lung area, including a hole right through the heart.
So back to the subject at hand, if I can get them, I have had great luck with Sierra Match Kings. (All I used in my silhouette days) great shooting with Bergers, shot some great groups with the ELD-X’s. And the most really accurate paper shots have been with the now discontinued Norma Golden Target at 130 grains. Downrange performance has to be checked closely, because, their BC seems off to me.
The story has still not been finished on Berger Hunting Bullets. In my 6.5 they perform very close to VLD in accuracy and performance. All but to the point of being interchangeable. However, in hunting with my .25-06, their 115 grain gives great accuracy and fine velocity. However, terminal performance is spotty. Year previous, got a nice little 4 point freezer deer. He did not go far, left a fair blood trail. This past year, it put down a freezer deer at the shot. (Always happens in the tv shows, but of the deer I have killed, rarely). Next i got this nice 8 point. I had been looking and waiting for him. Bullet hit in the right spot, made a total mess of the boiler room, deer ran about 20-30 yards and dropped. But did not penetrate and zero blood trail. The bullet was recovered on the far side jsut under the skin. See pictures below. He is the deer on the left with the brown strip on his neck. As I said, made a real mess of the deers heart lung area, including a hole right through the heart.
So back to the subject at hand, if I can get them, I have had great luck with Sierra Match Kings. (All I used in my silhouette days) great shooting with Bergers, shot some great groups with the ELD-X’s. And the most really accurate paper shots have been with the now discontinued Norma Golden Target at 130 grains. Downrange performance has to be checked closely, because, their BC seems off to me.
