I’m running the Berger 109s in my 6CM Savage Elite and have been very happy with them. My favorite load is 40.6 gr of N555, Lapua brass and CCI 450 primers. Excellent accuracy and velocity about 2980.
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
JLK, 115 or 110
PVA will not disclose their reamers atleast any of the times I’ve asked. Did you measure your freebore or was the a custom reamer you sent in.
Just their pva standard option that’s available from their drop down menu, i can’t remember where but someone mentioned it being a .210 freebore reamer but that may have been false I don’t know for sure I guess.
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Need some help. Buddy let me try some factory Berger 105 hybrid 6mm Creedmoor ammo. They shot great. If anyone has some, can they measure the overall length, not base to ogive, but the entire length. Thanks.
Just pulled a box out of the closet that has mixed lots and measured a dozen or so. Looks like 1.275 +- .015. A box from a single lot would likely have a lot less variation in OAL.
Thanks bro. This is the yellow box Berger ammo correct? Not the Federal Match ammo?
Yes, just 105 hybrid bullets in a berger box
I recently asked specifically what the pva standard freebore was and was told it was confidential. I can’t imagine why anyone would go 0.027 longer than the Saami spec.
Anybody using hornady atip 110gr for 6 creedmoor
Ok that is where the confusion is lol. I’m talking about these
Berger Ammunition: 6mm Creedmoor 105gr Hybrid, 20/Box
Berger 20020 bullets use their hybrid ogive's tangent and secant designs to optimize efficiency, and reduce wind-drift and sensitivity to seating depth.
www.milehighshooting.com 
Yes. working on those together with 105 and 109 bergers, and 105 Scenars L ( I am in Europe) pushed by Norma MRP and Viht N160. Stay tuned.
It probably is saami spec than, appreciate it
I just decided to get back on the 6 creed wagon, ordered some Berger 95 grain classic hunter factory ammo to break in barrel and get brass. Also ordered some 108 elite hunters for loading up. likely will go 19” or 20 “ Bartlein to use my 6.5 Ultra 7.
Altitude here in Indiana is around 800’.
will 8 twist work or need to go faster?
Eh, just ran it in the Berger stability calculator. Need to get to 2,900 to get a 1.50
Yup same here i was barely stable strange they said the recommended twist was 1in8 for that bullet.
Looks like 2.730 +\- 5 thou
Attachments
Thanks man. That makes .13” jump to the lands of my rifle. But it has to be like that for factory short action rifles. I always had issues with hybrids hitting and hanging on the bottom of the feed ramp on my r700s because they are so long.
I’ve seen people open up a notch with a dremel to help with that issue.
I have done that as well. Worked for me
If anyone is using Win StaBall 6.5 with 105 Berger Hybrids and cCI 450s. Can you please post your barrel twist and your best charge. Thanks.
I tried 42.5 in my 7.2 twist worked pretty good around 1/2 inch only have a pound of staball so that’s the best so far
Is anyone using the 95 TMK? I‘m going to build a lightweight shorty 6 creed to run suppressed for hunting. Thinking about trying the 95 TMK to keep velocity up. Mainly deer and antelope.
I am in Europe, no Berger ammo here. But it seems that I am somehow replicating this with my recipe.
40.5 VV N160 in Lapua brass, 2.140 cbto with Hornady gauge, ( lands at 2.250) 2.740 coal, cci 450 srp magnum behind Bergers105 are giving me very good accuracy at 2930 fps. More or less the same is coming out with 42.75 of Norma MRP. Hope this helps.
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I just loaded up a jump ladder of Berger 109 Hybrids in 6mm Creedmoor once-fired Hornady brass. These Berger 109 Hybrids are skinny!
Even with the same COAL as say a Hornady 108 ELD-M, the minimum jump I can seat the bullet at and still fit in the magazine (with a tiny gap at the tip) is about 0.107". Wow. AFAIK this is a standard SAAMI chamber since it is a Howa factory barreled action. Are other handloaders here seeing the same need to jump this far with the Berger 109 Hybrid? I'll know soon enough if these big jumps work after testing, but the only way I can see to shorten the jump (short of buying a custom barrel) is to window the magazine. I've done this in other calibers for the same reasons, but am wondering if it is common practice for this bullet. I do not want to hand feed.
BTW I measured the jump in my rifle with the factory Hornady 108 ELDM to be 0.045", a moderate jump at least. That bullet shoots sub-MOA out to 1000 yards in the same rifle.
While reading up on long bullet jumps I stumbled across the article below. Big jumps are not necessarily a bad thing, and may actually be preferable. Also that is supposedly one of the benefits of this Berger Hybrid bullet, less jump sensitivity. At any rate I have loaded up a jump series with a constant load (40.0 gr Re16, BR-4 primer) and will be looking at the vertical spread. It should be an interesting test.
Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?
About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...precisionrifleblog.com
My CBTO is 2.177" and COAL is 2.782" for the shortest jump I loaded (about .110"). Both of those could be upped maybe 0.020-0.030" if I removed the pad from the magazine, and a bit more if I windowed the magazine.
I'll just have to see how they shoot. I'm not used to jumping bullets this far, but that does not mean it is a bad thing.
How did it go? I'm curious about the Hybrid Target 109's in a SAAMI chamber, seems lots of folks seem to go for a shorter .109/.140 freebore with those... but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean they don't work with the longer freebore/jump too..?
I've been shooting a .183 freebore SAAMI spec chamber, started with a Howa too, but I've switched to the 115DTAC's after 1200 108ELD-M's and it's been a .5 MOA gun out to a 1000yrds. My jump with the 108ELD-M's started at .045" off jam and I never moved the CBTO more than .006", and since going to the DTAC's I just seated to a little under max mag length (which is a shorter CBTO than with the ELD-M's) and have no idea how much I'm jumping but it's probably a lot and it's continued to shoot lights out... The DTAC's have been great through another 400rds, but I know the barrel is toast any day, and I'll be sad to see it go.
I think I've had good success with the .183 freebore because I stuck to these longer bullets (which both, coincidentally, seems like none of the .109/.140 freebore guys like) and think I'm going to stick to the boring .183/SAAMI spec for my new barrel... but it would be cool to know what the Berger 109's do too? ...especially in these times when lots of types of bullets are tough to get a hold of...
I’m thinking of getting into the 6cm game. What’s the general consensus for optimal freebore for the different bullet weights when having a barrel spun up? Thanks
Just be careful. Lesson learned here. Got into a SAAMI spec free bore. Shooting 105 hybrids, I wanted .070” jump. At that jump, the bullet is to far out of the case to create enough pressure inside to the case to ever expand it. So I was getting crazy case results and carbon blowback. I ended up at .130” jump before the bullet was ever far enough in the case to create the amount of pressure needed to expand the case. BUT, luckily hybrids love alot of jump and the rifle still shoots great!
Ive run Berger 109s at COAL of 2.74” with a Proof prefit for Impact, and it was sub-0.3MOA with practically no tuning at all. That’s with virgin Hornady brass, H4350 and CCI 200. Speed was just about 2900.
"Optimal freebore" seems to depend on what class of bullets you plan on shooting.
Most of the guys who are going with the shorter/lighter 105's tend to go with a shorter freebore of .109-.140, but that's mostly in order to have their rounds within the "traditional/accepted" jump range of ~.020 off the lands or whatever, doesn't mean the 105's won't shoot with more jump, some guys just like to be closer to the lands (in fact nowadays, now that the 6 creed has been around for awhile, there's probably more info out there about how most 6 creed bullets actually love to jump, even the 105's).
For the longer/heavier 108 ELD-M's and DTAC 115's the SAAMI-spec .183 freebore is just fine, with those bullets a shorter freebore would probably put the bullets too deep into the case for me.
After getting way deep into the weeds about it, I've decided I'm sticking with the SAAMI .183 because in my experience and from what I've heard, the .183 will shoot anything if one just looks at the targets and tunes it, and stops worrying or over-thinking jump distance or where the lands are.
Plus, while I think I like the DTAC's best (probably because I don't have to run them as fast and they still perform), I'm down to 700-800 of them and haven't seen .243/6mm bullets in-stock in a while... so IDK what I'll be shooting when those run out and I know the .183 freebore will work with whatever.
I’m debating freebore also. 8 twist Bartlein 2b in hand. Wanting a lightweight suppressed. Have a bunch of Berger ammo with the 95 classic hunter bullet at 2.71”. Once that’s shot up im going to use the Berger 108 elite hunter. Want to keep the bullet in the case though.
Anyone using the 108 EH? If so, does the SAAMI freebore work well?
Anyone using the 108 EH? If so, does the SAAMI freebore work well?
I’ve got all the components to tell you except the bolt. I’ll know in the next couple of weeks if LRI will release the tikka bolts. Plan is for this 22” 6cm to be pushing the 108 at 3000 or better.
FWIW that 108 says 1in8 recommended but if you go to the stability calculator it needs to be pushed pretty fast to achieve stability. It’s really 1in7.75. I’m gonna need it at 3000~3050 to hover around 1.47~1.50 SG
I have searched around and haven't found too much info on folks running the 112 Barnes Match Burners. Anybody running them, and what are your thoughts? I picked up some (because they were available) and want to give them a try.
I am in the process of building my rifle right now. Origin action with a proof 7.5 twist barrel. I have Lapua brass, CCI 450s and H4350
I am in the process of building my rifle right now. Origin action with a proof 7.5 twist barrel. I have Lapua brass, CCI 450s and H4350
Funny enough, I just picked up 112 match burners to try out of my 6 creed. The Berger 109s are basically impossible to find right now, so the Barnes will hopefully be a good substitute; the price really helps too.
I have been shooting the 112's since that is about the only thing I could find. I am only about 120 rounds into a new barrel so far an they showed promise when I first shot the rifle. had a few 3 shot groups in one hole. I plan on going out tomorrow and doing some testing to find the best seating depth.
I have also been looking at the Berger 108 BT target bullets but there doesn't seem to be much info. on them out there. Anyone here tried them?
I have also been looking at the Berger 108 BT target bullets but there doesn't seem to be much info. on them out there. Anyone here tried them?
Will a 6.5CM seating die for work with the 6CM?
Yes, but you'll probably want to add an 6cm-specific seating stem unless the bullets are close in shape/ogive.
good. I'll see if the VLD stem works. Hard to find the dies I want right now and I have a nice Forster that I was hoping could work until I find a more permanent solution. Thanks
It went very well. Here are the results
Berger Hybrid Bullets and the Long Jump — JAMER (TM)
If you hand load for the 6mm Creedmoor like we do you have noticed something inconvenient; for a cartridge over all length (COAL) that fits in a typical magazine, there is a long jump to the lands with a SAAMI chamber. In our case, in our stock Howa barreled action (in an Oryx chassis), after carefu
www.jamerllc.com Cool, longer jump than I expected... but like the ups and downs in your graph show, it's about finding that "flat spot" instead of having to mess with seating depth every couple hundred rounds. I'm starting to think one might be able to get any bullet to shoot if one has an open mind about what a "normal" jump is. Sadly, with bullets as hard to come by as they are, I have no idea what I'll be shooting once my current stash dries up... so might be testing this theory whether I want to or not lol.It went very well. Here are the results
Berger Hybrid Bullets and the Long Jump — JAMER (TM)
If you hand load for the 6mm Creedmoor like we do you have noticed something inconvenient; for a cartridge over all length (COAL) that fits in a typical magazine, there is a long jump to the lands with a SAAMI chamber. In our case, in our stock Howa barreled action (in an Oryx chassis), after carefu
I'm kind of a shitty 100yrd group shooter (mostly just because I'm impatient and don't love shooting boring groups lol), so I've seen it show up more so out at 300-500 in the vertical. It seems like when you're on the "jump node" you can go hundreds of rounds and the rifle just stays boringly reliable as far as vertical spread and mean radius. Ya know, so one can practice shooting instead of reloading lol...
FWIW I'm after a "baseball or less" sized group at 400yrds, at will, not trying too hard, every time I go out... if I can get that and be at or under a 1/2" at 100yrds, consistently, on command and just as easily, then I'm done and I just try to maintain that. I get some .3's and even .2's, but I just want that .5" every time with the good vertical at distance.
For me, in my old barrel, the 108gr ELD-M's liked .040" or more jump. After dicking around too close to the lands for 300-400rds at ~.020" off, I went to .040" off jam and just shot the crap out of it as the throat cooked away and it just stayed solid. DTAC's I went longer jumping from ~.060-.080" to who knows. The barrel, factory Howa, still shot 1/2" when I took it off (though velocity died, fell off by ~150fps suddenly one day, it confused me at first because the accuracy stayed lol).
After seeing your data, I would like to try jumping the 108ELD-M's further for sure.
It seems weird to ignore all the traditional stuff about being right close up on the lands and/or chasing them, but I think, at least with 6CM, the lands/jump is a fairly rapidly moving and changing number (as the throat burns) and the closer to the lands the more wild the changes are. For me, the usual ".020" off the lands" shot great for 50rds one day, and then shot like shit 3 days later with the second 50rds of the same exact 100rd batch, no consistency. It gets distracting, again, the hobby is supposed to be shooting not reloading lol.
I just screwed on a new barrel that I haven't fired yet and I don't even think I'm going to do any kind of jump testing at all: between what I've read from others, and what I've seen for myself, every one's data shows the DTAC115's are pretty much good to go from a .060" jump on... So, instead of wasting time and components, I might just load to whatever CBTO is .060" off jam, and if it shoots, just roll and not think about it until something gets wonky or the barrel is cooked.... worst case I make an adjustment around maybe 500rds or so, best case I don't touch shit until it's new barrel time.
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Preface: in the past I'd have almost certainly started seating depth on a new barrel with going .010" - .020" off jam in .003" increments... and prior to reading all the more recent stuff out there about bullet-jump, the idea of me getting out to even .030" or .040" of jump would have taken me a while to warm up to. Even though I've already seen jumping further work, I'd only tried longer jumps as a fix, as a way to deal with a freebore on the longer side and a fast burning throat, not from scratch. Not anymore.
So first time out with new barrel... first 70rds through it today (loads left over from the old barrel), and in the interest of not wasting components I decided to seat the bullets at some different depths in order to get a coarse idea on what sort of jump I might be looking at... The rounds leftover from my old barrel landed at a .032" jump to jam in the new barrel (set jumping an unknown mile in the old one), which I resisted giving a try because there's a lot of info out there on the DTAC's that mirror what I've already seen first hand in that they like to jump, I just have never set a long jump right from the start on a new barrel before.
Shot 10 each from: .060 off jam, then .080, .100, .120, .140... didn't even bother going closer than .060 off.
DTAC115 41.5gr Sta-Ball CCI 200 Hornady case - (I didn't chrono anything and won't until another 100rds at least when the barrel has sped up, but playing with the truing in Strelok, at 400yrds using a small plate "trued speed" was ~2750fps).
I might have to do a bit more testing, but went well so far and looks like pretty much anything will work lol! I'm thinking I might just start with a .080" jump and call it good (which will probably be ~.100" after 400ish rounds)? Hopefully it'll gain 150fps and settle in ~2900fps which is where I'd like to be. Since it already seems to be well behaved as far as vertical over a range of at least .040" wide, good chance I'm around a pressure zone it likes, hopefully I'm on top of a node when I look at powder.
At 400 yards, staying inside a "tennis-ball or smaller" <1moa group was almost boring with really all of them between .080-.120 of jump (not to mention 15-20mph of 3/4-value wind), and there wasn't much vertical showing up to really talk about. At .060" off and .140 off I did see some vertical I didn't like (but shit, these really weren't bad either).
Here's a few 5-shot groups at 100 yards from today, shot pretty damn fast (maybe a minute between shots at most) and I suck mucho at shooting groups too (most of the windage is probably me). The dots are 1" and my POA was the bottom-middle-edge of the sticker:
This .120"-jump group doesn't look very impressive, but it was the last 5 rounds of the day on a hot barrel and me not really giving a shit, but the other .120" group I had shot earlier looked nearly identical, so that's all 10 rounds I had in ~.5" without trying too hard. So as the throat erodes and my jump increases I'll be "backing into" this until I make an adjustment. I'll take it.
So first time out with new barrel... first 70rds through it today (loads left over from the old barrel), and in the interest of not wasting components I decided to seat the bullets at some different depths in order to get a coarse idea on what sort of jump I might be looking at... The rounds leftover from my old barrel landed at a .032" jump to jam in the new barrel (set jumping an unknown mile in the old one), which I resisted giving a try because there's a lot of info out there on the DTAC's that mirror what I've already seen first hand in that they like to jump, I just have never set a long jump right from the start on a new barrel before.
Shot 10 each from: .060 off jam, then .080, .100, .120, .140... didn't even bother going closer than .060 off.
DTAC115 41.5gr Sta-Ball CCI 200 Hornady case - (I didn't chrono anything and won't until another 100rds at least when the barrel has sped up, but playing with the truing in Strelok, at 400yrds using a small plate "trued speed" was ~2750fps).
I might have to do a bit more testing, but went well so far and looks like pretty much anything will work lol! I'm thinking I might just start with a .080" jump and call it good (which will probably be ~.100" after 400ish rounds)? Hopefully it'll gain 150fps and settle in ~2900fps which is where I'd like to be. Since it already seems to be well behaved as far as vertical over a range of at least .040" wide, good chance I'm around a pressure zone it likes, hopefully I'm on top of a node when I look at powder.
At 400 yards, staying inside a "tennis-ball or smaller" <1moa group was almost boring with really all of them between .080-.120 of jump (not to mention 15-20mph of 3/4-value wind), and there wasn't much vertical showing up to really talk about. At .060" off and .140 off I did see some vertical I didn't like (but shit, these really weren't bad either).
Here's a few 5-shot groups at 100 yards from today, shot pretty damn fast (maybe a minute between shots at most) and I suck mucho at shooting groups too (most of the windage is probably me). The dots are 1" and my POA was the bottom-middle-edge of the sticker:
This .120"-jump group doesn't look very impressive, but it was the last 5 rounds of the day on a hot barrel and me not really giving a shit, but the other .120" group I had shot earlier looked nearly identical, so that's all 10 rounds I had in ~.5" without trying too hard. So as the throat erodes and my jump increases I'll be "backing into" this until I make an adjustment. I'll take it.
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The groups at .100" were probably the best actually... but .080" and .120" were ok too. Since by most accounts 6CM's seem to cook off their throats at a rate of around ~.005" per 100rds, starting with an .080" jump I should be good for ~800rds before I should have to mess with anything. Beyond that, I've got plenty of room in the mag to go .020" or even .040" longer on the rounds to put me right back in the jump-range it likes.
I'm planning on running a pussycat load at "only" ~2900fps too, so that should help. I've found the DTAC's at 2900fps to be really predictable and easy to shoot, and they're still supersonic past 1000yrds. Plus, for whatever reason, from what I've seen Sta-Ball seems to be happier run a bit slower too, around 2900 the nodes are wide and fat, pushing it to 3200 just takes more powder but it gets more peaky/spikey up there, not worth the hassle or barrel life for the extra speed to me.
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Went out on Friday and did a test for the best seating depth. For those interested in the Barnes 112 Match Burners, I will say they like some jump.
I found a nice flat spot between .040 and .055 off of my jam length. All of the groups in this range were 0.3" to 0.5" and had the same POI on the target at 100y. I have not had the chance to test at longer range yet but the ES & SD numbers are looking good so far. I think the average SD was running about 6fps.
Load dev for my new barrel is done. Hammers 
Started with looking at jump first... then powder. Never easier. (Think I'm sold on doing it this way going forward...)
DTAC115, 44gr Sta-Ball, Hornady brass (8x fired?), CCI 200, trim length 1.915", jump ~.090" to jam, FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~COAL 2.79" (CBTO 2.215" using Hornady comparator and insert #24 in my rifle 1:7.5t 5R MTU 26")
50 degrees, 30.32, 28%: AVG MV 2897fps SD 5 ES 10
10 shots, shot bang-bang semi-rapid fire (~10 seconds between shots, no cool off, no waiting):
Started with looking at jump first... then powder. Never easier. (Think I'm sold on doing it this way going forward...)
DTAC115, 44gr Sta-Ball, Hornady brass (8x fired?), CCI 200, trim length 1.915", jump ~.090" to jam, FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~COAL 2.79" (CBTO 2.215" using Hornady comparator and insert #24 in my rifle 1:7.5t 5R MTU 26")
50 degrees, 30.32, 28%: AVG MV 2897fps SD 5 ES 10
10 shots, shot bang-bang semi-rapid fire (~10 seconds between shots, no cool off, no waiting):
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Thanks. Bare... for another 100rds at least lol...
I’m going to have to move onto a box of 500 coated, that I wet tumbled in order to take the coating off (that’s all they had left and DTAC’s have been out of stock since...). Hopefully things don’t get wonky with them
Once those are gone, it's on to 200 112gr Barnes Match Burners I'm going to try (which numbers-wise look pretty close to DTAC's). Once those are gone, it'll be whatever I can get/find, hopefully there'll be more out there .I started at 0.060” off jam, and tried 0.060, .080, .100, .120... none were bad, things looked real good between 0.080”-.100” out to 0.120” off.
If it falls apart after a while, I’ve got plenty of room in my mags to seat them 0.020-0.040” longer when the time comes, and put me right back in the jump-range it likes.
After getting my jump, I ran powder quick from 43gr up to 46.5gr (that’s starting at book max). I might have been seeing the first signs of pressure at 46.5gr with the bolt starting to get a little sticky (think it was ~3100fps IIRC), but I might have been able to push it still.
For some reason in my experience, it seems like StaBall is happier run a bit slower, usually a big wide node in there somewhere from ~43-45gr, things get more peaky with more powder going faster... I like the DTAC’s at ~2900fps so it’s fine by me. StaBall starts to get good once there's good case fill, and 43gr on up is where that starts happening.
I should probably mention, all my charges are dropped straight into the cases from the powder measure, no trickling/weighing... After loading with StaBall for a while, I don’t think I’m ever going back to H4350 or any other stick powder... There's no f'ing way I would buy a $5100 Prometheus and $800 FX120i anymore (and that's where I was headed). Sorry to sound like an advertisement for StaBall, but it's game changing, I hope there's more temp-stable ball powders coming, this is the way.
It’s funny, with this DTAC/StaBall load I’m pretty much running the 6creed like a 6GT and/or Dasher without all the brass/mag kit/SRP headaches and without having to buy new dies and shit lol. It isn’t very hot, so recoil is soft and it’s easy to spot impacts/trace. 6creed has a rep for being tricky to load for, but seems just trying a bigger bullet-jump turns that on its head, and I kind of think that’s more BS than reality now. I think the truth is a lot of guys just suck at reloading and the BR-based cases might just be more forgiving, and they’re happier around the traditional ~.020” off which most guys are hopelessly stuck on lol.
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Posted this in the Staball thread, but figured I'd put it here too in case someone is looking for load ideas...
6mm Creedmoor
1:7.5T 26"
44gr Sta-Ball, DTAC 115, Hornady Brass (8x fired?), CCI 200
FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~.100" jump to jam.
2987fps* @61F/28.5inHg/25% - No chrono - speed trued at 600yrds in Strelok Pro.
*FWIW, sped up ~100fps from where I was (2897fps), somewhere between rounds 170-220 through the new barrel and using a bit more powder.
Dropped straight into cases, $50 measure, $50 scale... powder took about ~15mins to do 100rds.
1000 yards off bipod and rear bag (wasn't even the best group, just one I remembered to snap a pic of):
6mm Creedmoor
1:7.5T 26"
44gr Sta-Ball, DTAC 115, Hornady Brass (8x fired?), CCI 200
FL size -.002" bump, ~.002" neck tension, ~.100" jump to jam.
2987fps* @61F/28.5inHg/25% - No chrono - speed trued at 600yrds in Strelok Pro.
*FWIW, sped up ~100fps from where I was (2897fps), somewhere between rounds 170-220 through the new barrel and using a bit more powder.
Dropped straight into cases, $50 measure, $50 scale... powder took about ~15mins to do 100rds.
1000 yards off bipod and rear bag (wasn't even the best group, just one I remembered to snap a pic of):
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