Grace us with your knowledge then since apparently we have none herePoor young people these days...They know nothing of wildcatting, cartridges past, or old benchrest cartridges.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to live a life of blissful ignorance...Then they will be doomed to repeat it.
- Thread starter Judcargile
- Start date
I already did, go back and re-read it...
And no, I'm not Jud, so I'm not saying that none here have any... That's you putting words in my mouth. Don't do that. But if you open your mind instead of fanboying over companies, you might learn something about how they get you to spend money and manipulate your thoughts and desires. Marketing 101 stuff.
See, maybe it’s not about not knowing the lineage as much as knowing that the person/company who offers the right product at the right time and stands behind that offering, is the winner. For example, the .260 Remington. Obviously a good cartridge, in fact I still shoot barrels out with it today. However, it was all but dead due to Remington’s typical lackluster marketing and early drop of support. They’ve done that with any number of great cartridges over the years.
The ONLY advantages (when compared with equal external factors (rifle, twist rate, etc...) the 6.5CM has over the .260 Rem is A) cheaper and more plentiful brass options (from better marketing, b/c let's face it, Remington really fucked up with the .260 Rem as far as marketing goes), and B) the shorter OA case length allows you to seat higher BC bullets in magazines with shorter internal OAL.
The rest were all reheated leftover failed wildcats that never really took off, other than in small BR circles, or died-off from piss-poor marketing decisions by companies that never really gave them a chance, and didn't have the rest of the industry's support, because of shitty marketing, poor outdated twist rates, etc... Had the .260 Rem been given the same treatment as the 6.5CM, the CM would never exist. The poor marketing and 9" twist rate really didn't do it any favors when heavy-for caliber high-BC LR bullets came along just a few years before the CM and after the .260 was already dying.
Hornady saw that there was a need for this caliber cartridge in today’s market and answered by improving them in just the ways you mention. Yes, those were marginal improvements in design and the .260 still hangs in well, except…no marketing support and only some match offerings available from factory, even today.
Call it a ripped off design if you want, but guess what? There’s nothing new under the sun and the winner is the guy who gets to cash the checks. You don’t have to like it, but that’s reality and always will be.
Yes it is!!!That can't be Jud's... It lists "Fault Finding"...
All modern cartridges are rip-offs from the Mauser brothers and the 6.5x55, 7x57 and 8x57.
The ONLY advantages (when compared with equal external factors (rifle, twist rate, etc...) the 6.5CM has over the .260 Rem is A) cheaper and more plentiful brass options (from better marketing, b/c let's face it, Remington really fucked up with the .260 Rem as far as marketing goes), and B) the shorter OA case length allows you to seat higher BC bullets in magazines with shorter internal OAL.
The rest were all reheated leftover failed wildcats that never really took off, other than in small BR circles, or died-off from piss-poor marketing decisions by companies that never really gave them a chance, and didn't have the rest of the industry's support, because of shitty marketing, poor outdated twist rates, etc... Had the .260 Rem been given the same treatment as the 6.5CM, the CM would never exist. The poor marketing and 9" twist rate really didn't do it any favors when heavy-for caliber high-BC LR bullets came along just a few years before the CM and after the .260 was already dying.
There is only so much you can do with self-contained ammunition.
It is all the same, the things that differentiate it are things such as: length, diameter, capacity, neck length and shoulder angle.
It is quite funny though, in your supposed "proof" that they are all rip-offs, you make the case that there are definite, though sometimes, minute improvements.
The ONLY advantages (when compared with equal external factors (rifle, twist rate, etc...) the 6.5CM has over the .260 Rem is A) cheaper and more plentiful brass options (from better marketing, b/c let's face it, Remington really fucked up with the .260 Rem as far as marketing goes), and B) the shorter OA case length allows you to seat higher BC bullets in magazines with shorter internal OAL.
The rest were all reheated leftover failed wildcats that never really took off, other than in small BR circles, or died-off from piss-poor marketing decisions by companies that never really gave them a chance, and didn't have the rest of the industry's support, because of shitty marketing, poor outdated twist rates, etc... Had the .260 Rem been given the same treatment as the 6.5CM, the CM would never exist. The poor marketing and 9" twist rate really didn't do it any favors when heavy-for caliber high-BC LR bullets came along just a few years before the CM and after the .260 was already dying.
My 2019 car is a ripoff of the Model T with just a few minor improvements
You presented zero knowledge
Also fuck hornady
Also I have more wildcat barrels than saami. So go spew your shit in the bear pit or whatever
You forgot the .404 Jeffery and .375 Holland & Holland...
Boston... Nevermind, that explains everything.
Those were introduced years after the 7x57 and 6.5, so therefore, they are rip-offs.
Don't logic king wildcat
Took a while for you to google that, huh? But obviously you're not smart enough to know that the .404 Jeffery and .375 H&H are larger bolt face sizes and one is belted, so they are not ripoffs of the above mentioned cartridges. By your logic, then everything is a ripoff of the Flobert round from the 1840's... Being that it was the very first metallic cartridge ever made.
they all piggy backed off of the original, high pressure, self contained brass cartridge.
What does the belt the and the larger bolt face size have to do with it? They are the same fucking thing, a brass, self contained smokeless powder cartridge.
That is the basically the argument YOU put forth.
So does that mean every human being is clone of each other? Does that mean every animal is the same, because they all have 4 legs, fur, a tail, etc...? What about every car or truck... 4 round tires, a steering wheel, a motor...? Boats? .............Etc...
So, is every suppressor the same thing as Hiram Maxim's original design even though some are monocore, some don't use cone-style baffles, etc...?
Does that mean every rifle that copied the footprint of the Remington 700 is the same as a Remington 700?
I don't know, it is, after all the argument YOU made.
you made the point. now you're just arguing with yourself
Too bad there is no room for the love of guns here.
Not in this thread, for sure. You came in and were toxic right off. You want to enjoy the love of guns? Get off of your high horse and read a bit in the other sub-forums. Keep your cock holster minimalist for a bit and don’t assume that you are the king of the world. Maybe you’ll begin to see that thing that you speak of. It’s truly up to you at this point.
Your best bet is to let this thread die a lonely death and stop posting in it.
Your best bet is to let this thread die a lonely death and stop posting in it.
You are running the wrong approach.
Tough love?
I'll tell you what I did and do. I signed up for this forum early, last year. I have good friends who shoot competitively and I thought I'd like to try it. Then covid hit and supply dried up and prices went crazy, so I couldn't shoot. I don't know beans about long range precision shooting, so I don't talk about it. I lurk and try to learn from others, here. I pay and watch the videos. I shoot when I can. I DO NOT brag about any achievement I may have, related to firearms, shooting, or otherwise. I know what my achievements are. I know who I am. However, I do talk about things I do understand, or have an educated opinion on. I've had folks here, disagree and I like that. No one has ever called BS on anything I've said, because I don't talk smack. There are members who I look forward to reading their posts and I think some members value my opinion, as well.
OP, I'm talking to you. This is how I've gotten along with folks, here. It's been very easy. They're just a bunch of guys and a few gals. They are normal folks. Follow the ground rules, be courteous, polite and don't blow smoke. You can have a great time, sharing ideas, soaking up knowledge and get entertained. It's not difficult.
I never understood the gluttony for punishment, or a foolish waste of energy. Some folks, like the OP, have an uncanny knack for cutting off the nose to spite the face. This thread and the other, have definitely fast degraded into a cesspool, of negativity. Some folks will never play well with others and the OP has proven himself to be one of those. It's sad, really. It's like he didn't learn a damn thing in kindergarten and there's no fix for that.
OP, I'm talking to you. This is how I've gotten along with folks, here. It's been very easy. They're just a bunch of guys and a few gals. They are normal folks. Follow the ground rules, be courteous, polite and don't blow smoke. You can have a great time, sharing ideas, soaking up knowledge and get entertained. It's not difficult.
I never understood the gluttony for punishment, or a foolish waste of energy. Some folks, like the OP, have an uncanny knack for cutting off the nose to spite the face. This thread and the other, have definitely fast degraded into a cesspool, of negativity. Some folks will never play well with others and the OP has proven himself to be one of those. It's sad, really. It's like he didn't learn a damn thing in kindergarten and there's no fix for that.
You be you.
I did admit that my opening was not well done. I can see where it looked like I was trying to evade the PX protocol. I have no problem admitting that I screwed it up. I apparently had deeper issues, because I ended up keeping the 6.5 barrel; But, whatever.......
Seems to me that there are several problems layering up here and probably the biggest is that few people would want to read every post, so, my already having to explain what really should not need to be explained, like the F1 can. The claim about it having seemingly magic powers over projectiles is obviously me intending to be silly/humorous and unless you were dumb, a comment that bombastic would not be taken seriously. An amazingly high number of replies here that suggest too many take everything I have said to heart and most of those, I hope are feeding off of the opinion of others and not actually read it all or this forum is 11 up and 3 down.
How special am I? Not very; But, I will show my credentials to a senior/trusted member here that will keep things between the two of us. I have a diploma from Benning and I service a contract for one of the biggest defense contractors in the world. I know how to not affect a rifle and do not need benchrest mods to shoot well. I would not call my training or experience true long range. It is next to impossible to access long range opportunities in my area and I have no intention of investing in it.
I see how others are treated here and I see how opinions are formed......i also understand that the best and brightest are not even reading these threads, much less posting. My life will not lose it's meaning because grown men who hide behind computer screens do not approve of how I operate. My life is just peachy. I generally can connect my shots. What I wanted was to hear reasons about why 6.5 was worth supporting. I have real world assets that can straighten out my skill deficiencies. I have family and friends that can counsel me on my people skills.
I came here to talk about guns; But, seems like too many here want to pretend this is an achievement to exist here. The fact some of you have weapons with telescopic sights becomes pretty interesting. You getting a check for that PTSD? You still buy from FFLs? That is interesting.
There are a million threads on every shooting forum touting the virtues of the creedmoor. Its been so beaten to death and the 6.5 is so popular it has created some backlash.
Nobody here, really cares what you shoot. They do get excited when they sense someone thinks the cartridge they shoot is "the best". They will prove to you that it most definitely is not "the best". No one cares if you shoot a 6.5CM. It's a respectable short action cartridge, but it's definitely not the best at anything. That being said, I own two 6.5CM rifles; one bolt, one gas. Sure, I can shoot both to 1000 yards, but on my terms. I can't do it in competition. Humility is the key, here, until you've got time and experience, which endure respect. No one can jump in expect to hob knob with the Dukes of the Hide, without first earning respect. You have to earn your stripes and acceptance will come. This what the OP failed to understand. It's no different than any other club, or group we've ever been a part of, since we were small children. Jump in and act too familiar, or skip a pecking order, or break a rule, you get hazed, ostracized, shunned, or excommunicated. Like I said, it's what we learned in kindergarten.
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Indeed
Yeah, I get what your saying.
To me, forums are useful for sharing information and ideas. The idea of a club mentality is not something that interest me. The expectation that veteran members can act like jerks and you do not get your God given right to express your own opinion is blatantly un-American. Considering that a good number of members hear swore an oath, but, pick and choose when they uphold it...........rather than ignore me and my posts, they seem to prefer to use intimidation and censorship. ALL OF THIS DONE UNDER ANONYMITY, mind you.
Again, I admitted fault for the opening of the first post or at least a lack of good judgment. I am not about to apologize for giving as good as I get or pointing out something that I do not agree with.
Most everything about me that was brought to this forum about me was done by members google searching my name. I did not kick the door in here saying I deserved shit. I did and I will defend myself and I am man enough to exist anywhere on the internet without being anonymous. It could be argued that I am more willing to be accountable than most.
Just like your bringing up the 6.5 IN THE CONTEXT that YOU just did, What does your statement have to do with anything I ever said about 6.5? This is like trying to communicate with persons under the influence. Very, very annoying. I do not recall ever having the idea that there is any perfect do all caliber or platform either. I do think that 8.6 BLK is going to be the best subsonic caliber to date. The more I handle The Fix, the more I appreciate the advantages in the design for a bolt rifle. Being at an age where the aches and pains do not shake off like they did, I feel like the caliber and platform will keep men in the fight in their later years. That was all I wanted to do in this thread; But, your "club" is eaten up with something. Maybe when ammo prices calm down you bastards will chill out?
I would love to tell you that I got it all right, but, I got here in life just as much on account of my mistakes or more so. It turned out better than I thought.
Never be afraid to tell some jerk-asshole to go eat a bag of dicks! That is what Sister-Wife always said!
My post wasn't a reply to you, or your post. It was a reply to Im2bent's post, making it relevant to 6.5CM.
Alright. Just remember what sister-wife said.
My post wasn't a reply to you, or your post. It was a reply to Im2bent's post, making it relevant to 6.5CM.
Say what? My post was a reply to Juds post asking about the 6.5cm as I bolded in my quote. Not sure how that rattled your cage?
My post wasn't a reply to you, or your post. It was a reply to Im2bent's post, making it relevant to 6.5CM.
You didn't rattle my cage. No worries. The reply was relevant to your post, but was pointed at the OP, as was yours. No offense meant and none taken.
Reading this thread feels like waking up from surgical anesthesia and not knowing what the fuck is going on....
Anyone else feel that way?
Anyone else feel that way?
I clicked on this thread because I saw title and thought WTF is 8.6 blk. I thought I could learn something, but instead I found a huge dick measuring contest. Entertaining sure, but not very educational.
Sorry bro. Do check out the 8.6 BLK. It is worth your time. Unfortunately, I debuted in here, stepping in shit and it will take a bit before the lower class members lose interest.......if ever!
Lol, like you can even use the word class and expect people to take you seriously!!
But do go on…hint.
I appreciate your encouragement more than you will ever imagine. BTW, I am suspending ops at Pratt Park until Fall. It is hard to look cool in this much heat and humidity.Lol, like you can even use the word class and expect people to take you seriously!!
But do go on…hint.
So, you're waiting on a stomach pump then?
How on earth did I miss this gem. I've been following updates on the Q podcast and look forward to this round actually being available. I've said many times I hope they continue to upsize the Blackout line.
It's clear that many have no idea what went into the 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 Blackout rollouts. The point wasn't some new whiz bang round the point was that everyone was on the same page from day one. 260 Remington could have easily been the wonder round that the Creedmoor has become if Remington had pulled their head out of their ass. To them it was a hunting round even after years of people begging them to do faster twist heavy barreled guns. They could have cornered the market with a 9 twist SPS varmint and a matching 5r. But instead they kept doing their 9 twist VLS that nobody wanted. With the Creedmoor rounds everything had the right twist right from the start and target ammo with heavy match bullets was everywhere.
The Blackout was a similar story. JD Jones had plenty of opportunities to get SAAMI approval of his Whisper rounds or at least team up with some of the bigger manufacturers but instead he wanted to keep it all in pocket. By starting with SAAMI approval and getting a few big names on the same page the Blackout was able to eclipse the Whisper almost immediately and continues to do well enough that at this point it will probably be around in some form or another forever.
Thanks for the entertainment and please keep swinging away I'll be over here with my popcorn.
It's clear that many have no idea what went into the 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 Blackout rollouts. The point wasn't some new whiz bang round the point was that everyone was on the same page from day one. 260 Remington could have easily been the wonder round that the Creedmoor has become if Remington had pulled their head out of their ass. To them it was a hunting round even after years of people begging them to do faster twist heavy barreled guns. They could have cornered the market with a 9 twist SPS varmint and a matching 5r. But instead they kept doing their 9 twist VLS that nobody wanted. With the Creedmoor rounds everything had the right twist right from the start and target ammo with heavy match bullets was everywhere.
The Blackout was a similar story. JD Jones had plenty of opportunities to get SAAMI approval of his Whisper rounds or at least team up with some of the bigger manufacturers but instead he wanted to keep it all in pocket. By starting with SAAMI approval and getting a few big names on the same page the Blackout was able to eclipse the Whisper almost immediately and continues to do well enough that at this point it will probably be around in some form or another forever.
Thanks for the entertainment and please keep swinging away I'll be over here with my popcorn.
Yeah, it would seem that 45 Super never made the big time, because the developer was a horrible negotiator.
I was saddened to hear that the 8.6 BLK will be a while yet, because Q is not getting much traction in support for their fast twist and will have to make it in house. I was really hoping that Proof would produce some and if the round takes off, then the industry will want some of the market.
Remington's fuck-up of the .260 Rem was totally predictable considering that it followed the same playbook as the 6mm Rem. I can't blame them, given the fascination that shooters had with muzzle velocity back in that era. But that's old history by now, and hardly worth dunking on Remington (instead, we've got a bunch of late-stage capitalism bullshit and two bankruptcies for which they should be ridiculed).
Hornady wouldn't have needed to introduce the 8.6 BLK - and we could have been saved this dumpster fire of a thread - if Federal hadn't fucked up the .338 Fed. Even 15 years ago, it was pretty obvious that: 1) heavy-for-caliber bullets are a thing (this was true even before the recent subsonic craze), and 2) the magazine-fed rifle fad wasn't going away. The inability to foresee the desire to stuff a long bullet into a COAL of ~2.80” was a major failure of imagination.
The same can be said for Hornady's fixes for various other screw-ups, outdated designs, and improperly-supported new product introductions. I'm not trying to slobber on their corporate balls, but rather simply lament the numerous missed opportunities by the rest of the industry to get their shit together.
Hornady wouldn't have needed to introduce the 8.6 BLK - and we could have been saved this dumpster fire of a thread - if Federal hadn't fucked up the .338 Fed. Even 15 years ago, it was pretty obvious that: 1) heavy-for-caliber bullets are a thing (this was true even before the recent subsonic craze), and 2) the magazine-fed rifle fad wasn't going away. The inability to foresee the desire to stuff a long bullet into a COAL of ~2.80” was a major failure of imagination.
The same can be said for Hornady's fixes for various other screw-ups, outdated designs, and improperly-supported new product introductions. I'm not trying to slobber on their corporate balls, but rather simply lament the numerous missed opportunities by the rest of the industry to get their shit together.
...hmmm, that's a neat way to eliminate a loose barrel extension / upper fitment
...wonder if this will ever migrate to AR uppers in the future?
One of the most stunningly stupid things I have ever heard here, or anywhere else.
It’s funny that KB does fine when he copy other people works, yet is unable to make his own project happens. 
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