A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

[Wannashootit]

Hey guys...

We're going to the 200 yard section of our range for the first time next weekend (longest they have, and it's only open one day/month )

Having completed (well, not that it <span style="font-style: italic">ever</span> ends) load development for two of our rifles ( .223 Rem 700, .308 Savage), it's time to increase the distance.

Our ultimate objective is long range, at another facility, once
we get 200 down pat.

That's the background, here's the question. I bought some AR500 steel targets from a Hide member- 6" and 12". The six inch, at 3 moa, is a decent challenge for us. But we were wondering if we should also- or instead of- use paper?

Will the bullet/load that performs best at 100, perform best at 200?

My thinking is yes, that there's not enough difference in distance for BC and bullet type to be a significant variable at this point.

Am I correct in this?

If so, at what difference <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> things change-up, and how do you do load development at longer ranges? I don't know the specifics of our current range, nor the one we plan on "moving-up" to... but common sense would tell me that at some point not much more than 200 yards it becomes impractical to chase paper targets.

How do you guys tackle the issue of moving to longer distances for load devlopment? I think I'm rambling a bit, but hopefully you understand the gist of my question...

Is load development at 100 yards really meaningful at 600 yards?

Thanks!

 

[Smokin99]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Heres what I do.....
Test load developement with a chrono and 300yards. At 100yards some bullets havent stabilized yet. Look for lowest fps spread with the chrono and best group at 300yards,,,,works for me I cant remember the last time I shot under 300yards.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

The transition from 100 yards to 200 is a small step, relatively speaking, you wont notice much difference in your load if any. Some loads that shoot well at 100 yards may not perform well at extended ranges, but we are talking ranges far exceeding 200 yards.

Don't over think it, I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised how well you do @ 200, and beyond.

Kirk R

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

If your gun/load is holding 1moa at 100 it should hold 2 moa or slightly less at 200. There are variations due to bullet stabilization and other factors but a decent rifle with godd loads should shoot 1 inch at 200m.

 

[eddieharren]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Use twice as much powder and pull the trigger twice as hard.
Don't forget to click the scope

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use twice as much powder and pull the trigger twice as hard.
Don't forget to click the scope

</div></div>

Be nice, now...

 

[pmarauder]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your gun/load is holding 1moa at 100 it should hold 2 moa or slightly less at 200. There are variations due to bullet stabilization and other factors but a decent rifle with godd loads should shoot 1 inch at 200m. </div></div>
2 MOA at 200 yards would be 4 inch groups

1 inch at 200 yards would be 1/2 MOA groups.

I think what you are getting at is that if the shooter can hold consistant 1 inch groups at 100 yards (1 moa) then he should be able to hold that same 1 MOA at the 200 yard range which equates to around 2 inch groups.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

What I'm trying to get at- is how irrelevant does load data developed at 100 yards become at 400? 600?

As an example, flat-base bullets shoot well at shorter ranges, but the low BC makes them less desirable at long range.

So, if long range is the ultimate objective, do you take your shorter range, proven loads and try to tweak them, or do you tend to disregard them- and try different (e.g. heavier, perhaps) bullets and loads for the lr stuff?

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

For example the difference between the 168grn and 175grn SMK's is that the 168 loses its stability around like 168 yards (i think, don't hold me to those numbers) where the 175 continues to keep rockin' far beyond that. So your worked up load for 100yrd shooting may or may not work well at the 600yrd line. Stepping from the 100yrd line to the 200yrd line is not a challenge or really even much different at all in my opinion. I had a Weatherby Vanguard that I couldn't get to shoot any load under 3.5MOA at 100yrds but when i moved up to 200yrds expecting accuracy to get worse it actually got better and I was shooting slightly smaller groups at twice the range. Bullet stabilization plays a major role but the only way to find out exactly what will happen for you and your setup is to go out and try it

Let us know what your load is and from there we can easily tell you what needs to be tweaked if anything.

-Dylan

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Thanks guys.
Didn't really mean to turn it into a reloading question. Maybe it belongs there...

I'm actually trying the 175's for the first time this weekend.
The 168's- shot tight as a gnat's ass at near minimum load (40.0 Varget) which really surprised me. Then opened up at 41, and 42, then tightened back up at 42.5.

Go figure.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For example the difference between the 168grn and 175grn SMK's is that the 168 loses its stability around like 168 yards (i think, don't hold me to those numbers) where the 175 continues to keep rockin' far beyond that. So your worked up load for 100yrd shooting may or may not work well at the 600yrd line. Stepping from the 100yrd line to the 200yrd line is not a challenge or really even much different at all in my opinion. I had a Weatherby Vanguard that I couldn't get to shoot any load under 3.5MOA at 100yrds but when i moved up to 200yrds expecting accuracy to get worse it actually got better and I was shooting slightly smaller groups at twice the range. Bullet stabilization plays a major role but the only way to find out exactly what will happen for you and your setup is to go out and try it

Let us know what your load is and from there we can easily tell you what needs to be tweaked if anything.

-Dylan</div></div>

I don't think you need to worry about a 168gr SMK losing stability at 168 yards from the muzzle...(reverse that yardage figure, and it might be a different story).

 

[RobertB]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

The 168 SMK is not the best LR bullet my no means. If thats what you will be shooting alot of it's not a bad bullet BUT its LR athority is in question. It is THE most accurate bullet I have found in my .308. Out to 5-600 yds is as far as I like shooting them. The 175,155, and then some of the heavies is what I prefer for the .308. At 100 and 200 yds that bullet is hard to beat really and is what I would probably shoot the most of since that it is probably the most commonly found .308 match bullet. Regular length bbl's (22-24") will go to about 8-900 yds I would guess before breaking subsonic. The short bbls will be shorter. That doesn't mean you can't shoot em further but they lose most of their MOJO. The 168 SMK is commonly said to be Questionable at subsonic ranges. It gets unpredictable. Good luck and keep shooting. If all you have to shoot at is 100 and 200 yds then you can still practice your positions and fundamentals of accurate shooting with out having to worry to much about loads and bullet selection. B.C. and wind doesn't really matter much. Practice there and get ready to go find farther shots. Use your steel for farther shooting as the paper is better for close shots IMO. I don't really want to shoot steel at close distances cause of ricocettes and such. Paper you can keep any way and keep track of your progress. Don't stick to groups either. I shoot groups when I test loads and thats about it. Get some shooting drills or games. Groups doesn't really help much IMO.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Quite correct sorry for the confusion, 1 inch group gun at 100 should hold 2 inches at 200 which is 1 moa.

 

[AKAce]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Loads need to be shot at the distances you intend to use them. There is no Predicting how they may act.

For Example, doing Load Dev for a .260 I was using 139 Scenars and 140 A-Max, @ 100 - 300 yards, the Scenars were consistently better, by a Small amount. I had all but sealed the deal on using them (Ordered 1000) till I shot the loads @ 400 - 600 in Wind. The A-Max, Besides needing less elevation bucked the wind Much better. At 600 Yards the Scenars had 4-5" of horizontal dispersion compared to 2 - 3" for the A-Max (not making corrections for wind changes) The Vertical also opened up.

200 yards is Almost not worth wasting Ammo to learn anything. Trigger time is always good, but don't expect to get any significant Data.. Your groups should not be more than 50-75% larger then @ 100.

Aim Small Miss Small, a 6" Plate is Way to big unless your shooting Offhand. Think Golf Balls or 1.5" Circles.

 

[vman]

Re: A question about going from 100, to 200, yards...

Imo going from 100 to 200 is not a big step. In saying that, deffinately give it a try.

Theres a difference between 200, 400, 600, 800 and 1000... the main difference being the wind and the cumulative effect that terrain has on wind between you and the target. But these things come with time and practice.

To answer one of your questions, No i dont believe that load development at 600 is a waste. I would start of with a ladder test at around 300, or an OCW if you prefer that and then confirm it at 600.