Always MIL vs MOA EXCEPT group size?

[Subwrx300]

Just reading through posts when this random question with no easily observable answer came to mind:

"If shooters prefer MIL vs MOA (including discussion on MIL/MIL vs MOA/MOA scopes) then why don't they discuss their group sizes in MIL?"

I'm curious if anyone has ever run across any person(s)/posts or articles that ever use MIL system when describing groups. Such as "My 'Lil .308 will put down .2 MIL groups all day..." or "I'm a consistent .3 MIL shooter..." I would expect some of the Euro shooters to refer to groups this way but haven't seen any posts with reference to MIL group size.

You get the idea... just a random stupid question. Post a link if you find one...happy hunting!

Cheers!

 

[groundhogbuster]

MOA is just closer to an ", and differs at each distance. In other words an moa or "minute" is approx 1" (1.047?) If you have a stick that is a .5moa gun this means is shoots .5"@100/1"@200/5"@1000yds etc. Also a min is a finer subtension than a mil.

 

[djskit]

Yeah, I like your thought process...but measuring groups in inches and stateting it in MOA is just easier and quicker.

 

[Subwrx300]

Just to be clear, I completely understand the MOA and MIL ranging systems of measurement.

I was more interested in the odd fact that it's relatively the same thing bit no one uses the MIL system in reference to groups.

And both systems will grow in proportion to distance. I just found it internally amusing and funny when I thought of the lack of MIL groups.

 

[Subwrx300]

I only use MOA also but interesting that some would use MIL/meters ranging and reference groups in MOA.

 

[Graham]

The group is the same size, no matter what units you use to measure it.

 

[Punisher29073]

Yes, but which is mostest snipery?

Ryan

 

[Subwrx300]

Yes, but which is mostest snipery?

Ryan

That is the real question!

 

[BobinNC]

Inches, yards et al are units of linear measurement. Mils and MOA are measurements of angles or Arc's.

 

[ArmyJerry]

hehehhehehe, OAF = MIL, MOA = Rifleman.

 

[Kiwigrunt]

I use MIL for group sizes. But only to myself as I'm the only one who understands me.

 

[bogeybrown]

I would expect some of the Euro shooters to refer to groups this way but haven't seen any posts with reference to MIL group size.
Cheers!

I'm I'm understanding this statement correctly, you feel that Euro shooters would prefer a MIL measurement because it's "metric"?

MILs aren't metric, they're angular, just like TMOA. If that wasn't what you were saying then I'm sorry for the assumption, but I see it come up a few times a year in threads where someone says they can't think in "metric" referring to MILs.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

We use MOA because up until recently sights and scopes were adjusted in MOA. Now, that mil adjustment has become fashionable shooters have another way to look at it all. I prefer MOA sight adjustment over mils for a multitude of reasons.

 

[Subwrx300]

Actually I presumed it would be used by euro shooters because they use the metric system. And the IPHY approximation of the MOA would be less relevant to them because of centimeters and meters. And it's easier to Calc range mentally with mils and meters.

(size meters x 1000)/mil reading = range

Anyway my point isn't that more people use MOA or mil... it's that I've not seen anyone who uses/prefers mil based ranging AND discuss groups in Mils.

I just wanted to put this up in car some had a link to a site that does talk about mil rad based group sizes.

Thanks for us the replies!

 

[Subwrx300]

I use MIL for group sizes. But only to myself as I'm the only one who understands me.

Well said!

 

[Drifter™]

Right or wrong, here's my thought process...

When you measure short linear distances, what do you use? A ruler or tape measure perhaps? What type of linear units are indicated on it?

What units do you measure in for short distances (such as group size)? Inches?

What units do you measure in for longer distances (such as shot distances)? Yards?

What linear increments are you most likely to place targets? 100-yard increments perhaps?

While MOA and MIL are angular units of measurement, and are really neither imperial nor metric, which of the two is more easily related with your linear measurements of group sizes in inches and shot distances in 100-yard increments?

MOA


(And FWIW, I prefer MIL/MIL scopes.)

 

[Spuhr]

In europe there is lots of shooters who say group sizes in mils, and that is so easy as mil and metric is the same.
Maybe of cooincidence but still the mil corresponds perfectly to the metric system espesially since its built up the same way.

 

[Emouse]

hehehhehehe, OAF = MIL, MOA = Rifleman.

That comment makes YOU the oaf.

 

[Subwrx300]

In europe there is lots of shooters who say group sizes in mils, and that is so easy as mil and metric is the same.
Maybe of cooincidence but still the mil corresponds perfectly to the metric system espesially since its built up the same way.

First confirmation that some do use mil for group size. Thanks Spuhr!

 

[Empty8sh]

Hi,

here in Germany groups sizes are mostly displayed in millimeters at 100m distance. Which kind of is the Milradian system...

Best regards from the old world,
Empty8sh

 

[Subwrx300]

Hi,

here in Germany groups sizes are mostly displayed in millimeters at 100m distance. Which kind of is the Milradian system...

Best regards from the old world,
Empty8sh

Thanks Empty8sh. Do you use Mil equivalent when discussing groups? I would expect that mm would be the primary unit of measure but do you guys say "I'm a solid .1 Mil shooter" or anything like that?

 

[Lowlight]

@Sterling Shooter

"Since Mils became fashionable "...

Well considering the first scopes came from Europe and had nothing to do with Inches, or MOA, I would think you have that backwards. Mils are much more common everywhere but here.

And to be more Snipery you wouldn't call it either, because Sniping has nothing to do with shooting groups. One shot, One Kill....

 

[Empty8sh]

Thanks Empty8sh. Do you use Mil equivalent when discussing groups? I would expect that mm would be the primary unit of measure but do you guys say "I'm a solid .1 Mil shooter" or anything like that?

Hey Subwrx,

there aren't a lot of people who use/understand the Milrad system, since distance ranging is almost never required. Most gun ranges have fixed distances of 50, 100 or 300m. Most hunters use a custom elevation turret, a drop-compensating reticle or zero the rifle at "4 centimters high at 100m". This way you can use the same hold between 50-200m with only minor deviation in bullet drop. 50-200m is the usual hunting distance in Germany, many shoot only out to a 100m.

The "x millimeters at 100m" is generally used in reviews in gun magazines or when testing different brands of ammo.

Other than that, sports shooting in Germany is (because of questionable laws) more oriented towards competition. We mostly shoot on standardized ISSF-targets with rings/points e.g. 10 shots for a maximum of 100 points (inner 10 is 25mm, outer 10 is 50mm, 9 is 100mm, 8 is 150mm and so on...).

The performance of a sports shooter would be measured in rings (I myself do f.e. 363 of 400 rings at 25m at the same target with 40 shots from a 9mm handgun...rifles are done accordingly, so f.e. 97 of 100 rings).

Practical accuracy of a rifle would be described f.e. as: it is able to "hold the outer 10", which would be a 2 MOA rifle. A Rifle/shooter combination would be: "I can hold the 9 at 100m even on a bad day".

Then there is the "minute of Bierdeckel": a "Bierdeckel" is a piece of cardbord that you put under your beerglass, roughly 4 inches in size. Anything up to that is considered useable, anything over that is a "Giesskanne", a watering pot with one of these sieved nozzles.

Hope I could help you, best regards from the current soccer world champions
Empty8sh