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Amazed by a SCAR 17

beenjammin

beenjammin

Gunny Sergeant
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Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 17, 2006
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Auburn, Alabama, United States
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Took my scar 17 to the range today to sight in the SS 1-6x. I was absolutely amazed at what this rifle can do. I shot off a bag and easily shot just as good if not better then my old LMT MWS and Larue OBR.
Still shocked. Never thought these could be this accurate.

At 100 yards on 6x

The first shots were sight ins and then a 5 shot group. Last round in the mag always a flyer on me.


 
Looks great Ben! I have been thinking about a setup like that. I may have to make the short trip and check it out first hand!
 
Looks about right. My 16s shoots lights out as well. These are MOA guns with the right load provided the shooter can massage the lousy factory triggers. Love the SCARs. They are as accurate as can be expected from a semi and have a magnificently engineered operating system. With a better trigger and a metal stock latch they would be spot on perfect right out of the box.
 
BigJimFish said:
Looks about right. My 16s shoots lights out as well. These are MOA guns with the right load provided the shooter can massage the lousy factory triggers. Love the SCARs. They are as accurate as can be expected from a semi and have a magnificently engineered operating system. With a better trigger and a metal stock latch they would be spot on perfect right out of the box.
Click to expand...

I agree, the major reason that turned me off on the SCAR 17 is the horrible factory trigger on my SCAR 16. You would think on a $3000 rifle they could provided a decent trigger.
 
What ammo were you using? I have heard these SCAR 17's love Federal Fusion 150 grain. I have only shot surplus through mine, with just the iron sights.
 
wegner426 said:
What ammo were you using? I have heard these SCAR 17's love Federal Fusion 150 grain. I have only shot surplus through mine, with just the iron sights.
Click to expand...

It was the federal gold match 7.62 ( not .308). The really nasty looking stuff out of the box. Usually shoots like crap out of my bolt rifle, but the scar sure liked it.
 
I've been impressed with my 16s. Really smart design. I am currently debating getting a 17s now too, you are not helping.
 
My brother also has a 16 and his gun loves the 77 black hills ammo. He put a timney trigger in hs and it was a world of difference. The scars are great guns my buddy has 17 and we shot it this weekend and i could not believe how much less the recoil is then a regular ar 10 because of how the operating system is designed.
 
its a naked AI

10e78d6d-1b7c-445a-9f8b-2bbd8fc5e47c_zps77231168.jpg
 
samnev said:
I agree, the major reason that turned me off on the SCAR 17 is the horrible factory trigger on my SCAR 16. You would think on a $3000 rifle they could provided a decent trigger.
Click to expand...

Nothing says "You'll never bump fire this rifle" more than a factory SCAR trigger. I swear they feel like a 25 lb pull weight. Nothing that money and about 20 minutes of your time can't fix though.
 
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I own a SCAR17 as well and I thoroughly enjoy the rifle. It's light, handy, and soft recoiling. The complaints I had out of the box were remedied by an MI rail extension, Handl lower, GG&G charging handle, and Vltor enhanced buttstock. All mine needs is a Geissele and she'll be finished.
 
Maybe I got lucky but the trigger on my SCAR 17 is not bad at all. It is not a Geissele but it is better than the standard AR trigger. As far as groups, I was pleasantly surprised, too. My best group was stringing 4 rounds touching at 100 yards and I'm a real novice when it comes to rifles. I'd love to see what this rifle can do in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing.
 
CSAR FE said:
I own a SCAR17 as well and I thoroughly enjoy the rifle. It's light, handy, and soft recoiling. The complaints I had out of the box were remedied by an MI rail extension, Handl lower, GG&G charging handle, and Vltor enhanced buttstock. All mine needs is a Geissele and she'll be finished.
Click to expand...

Pleasde dont take this as any offense, but this is what kills me about the scar, you take a 2800 dollar rifle and basically have to add another 1000 dollars worth of up grades to make it how it should be.
 
No reason to take offense to that. Its a good rifle and I want to make it better by changing things to my liking. Its not like an AR that I can purchase off the shelf to the exact specs I want. In my opinion, the SCAR17 is a good platform so I'm not going to throw it out just because the rail isn't as long as I'd like it to be. Its a good rifle out of the box, but I can't help tinkering with things when I get them..... and I only paid $2600 for mine, not $2800 ;)

If there was anything that pissed me off about the rifle though, its the $45 a piece proprietary mags. I bought my Handl lower at the pre-order price of $275 and sold the few SCAR17 mags I had for what I paid for them. That covered half of the cost right there and now I just use one of the 15 7.62 PMAGs I already had for my MATEN. So realistically, I've spent ~$410 in upgrades.
 
Yea but CSAR FE I would enjoy taking my MWS against your SCAR.

I have been getting the itch for one but prices are stupid high for me and I got some tax stamp items that took up my funds all ready. Great pics and happy shooting.
 
I would have to say my Scar is tops as well. The accuracy is simply amazing. The pws on the end of the barrel kills almost all the recoil but its one hell of a blast no pun intended to anyone close to you. I swapped out the PWS for a qd and the recoil was bumped up a bunch when the can was not in use. Also the barrel being so thin I noticed drop quickly and the pull using the can after multiple shots. A slightly heavier barrel would be nice as an option but for a sub 8lb 308 that delivers. I am just nit picking It is bad a$$. You also really cant beat the breakdown and cleaning of it either.

Bones
 
Pedro23 said:
Yea but CSAR FE I would enjoy taking my MWS against your SCAR.

I have been getting the itch for one but prices are stupid high for me and I got some tax stamp items that took up my funds all ready. Great pics and happy shooting.
Click to expand...

I need to get out of Italy first before we can do that!
 
TheOrdnanceLocker said:
Since no one else said it... Try loading a 6th round so your bolt doesn't lock back and affect your recoil impulse and I'll bet that "flyer" disappears.
Click to expand...

I suppose it is none of my biz, but what kind of gun can lock back before bullet exit?
It would need a short stroke, light bolt, long barrel, tiny powder charge, and 5 pound bullet.
 
Clark said:
I suppose it is none of my biz, but what kind of gun can lock back before bullet exit?
It would need a short stroke, light bolt, long barrel, tiny powder charge, and 5 pound bullet.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into this debate which has been beat to death and the same people show up every time to disagree. There has been numerous slow footage videos showing that on most standard 16" barrels the bolt is locking back as the bullet is exiting the barrel and it can (note the keyword "can") cause a flyer.
 
TheOrdnanceLocker said:
I'm not going to get into this debate which has been beat to death and the same people show up every time to disagree. There has been numerous slow footage videos showing that on most standard 16" barrels the bolt is locking back as the bullet is exiting the barrel and it can (note the keyword "can") cause a flyer.
Click to expand...

It is all new to me.
My father used high speed film for the auto guns he designed, back in the day when they used film. That is before charged coupled devices.

So educate me.
What moves first, the bullet or the bolt?
What is the bullet velocity?
What is the bolt velocity?

I can do some calculations for guns. I can calculate how far empty cases will fly before hitting the ground. I know a few things about bolt speed and bullet speed.

I just have never heard of bullets that slow or bolts that fast.

Please educate me with the details.
 
Clark said:
It is all new to me.
My father used high speed film for the auto guns he designed, back in the day when they used film. That is before charged coupled devices.

So educate me.
What moves first, the bullet or the bolt?
What is the bullet velocity?
What is the bolt velocity?

I can do some calculations for guns. I can calculate how far empty cases will fly before hitting the ground. I know a few things about bolt speed and bullet speed.

I just have never heard of bullets that slow or bolts that fast.

Please educate me with the details.
Click to expand...

We'll agree to disagree. You're already condescending enough and it's pointless to trash a thread for the sake of you trying to feed your own ego. I offered a suggestion which was suggested to me for the same reason by Frank and whether it be physical or psychological it alleviated the issue. So instead of beating the dead horse why don't you give us your solution for his 5th flyer issue that would actually be useful for something other than bolstering your own self esteem...
 
I am not disagreeing, just amazed and interested.

Have you got anything?

Here is a simple example of my math without the compliance of hand and wrist included:
1) For a semi-automatic case fired 5feet form the floor, the time to reach the floor is
t= square root ((2)distance / acceleration )= root (5'/32'/sec/sec)=.54 seconds
2) In a Colt .45 the ejector contacts the case when the slide is back 1.3". The farthest the slide can travel is 1.8" where it hits a stop. If the spring is perfectly sized for the gun and the round, then the slide
will just run out of energy at the stop. Assume Vslide = 0 at 1.8".

3) Energy Slide at 1.3 inches = (force) (distance)= (16lb spring)(1.8-1.3=.5")=.66 foot pounds of kinetic energy left in slide when it hits the case

4) Energy is also = 1/2 mass velocity squared = .5 (mass of slide= weight of slide/ grav accel=12 oz/32 t/sec/sec)(V squared)

5) Combining equations 3) and 4): Vslide at 1.3" = square root(E/(.5mass)) = root(.66 ft lb/((.5)(.023 lb sec sec /ft)) = 7.6 feet/sec

6)Center of gravity [this should be moment of inertia, but that would be work] is .25" from extractor claw and ejector hits the case at .35" from the extractor claw.
Velocity of case = (.25"/.35") velocity of slide at 1.3" = (.25/.35)7.6 feet/sec = 5.4 feet per sec [here's your answer] = 3.6 miles per hour

7) Combining 1) and 6): Distance case travels= (Velocity)(time)=(5.4ft/sec)(.54 sec)=2.9 feet horizontally from the gun

And Wolff FAQ wants your empties to land from 3 to 6 feet. They must want the slide to barely hit the stop.

Notice how the slide is going 3.6 mph when it starts to eject, not lock back yet?
 
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And you think I'm bad Clark? Lol... I love how you're trying to act as if you're innocent and not disagreeing or trying to argue when you clearly are. Why don't you actually answer his question and tell us all your educated opinion on the cause of his 5th round flyer rather than trying to amaze everyone with something you wrote back in 1999 and at every chance you get you copy and paste it for a reference to impress us with math skills that I might add are relevant in the context of a handgun, NOT and AR which you'd have to account for the brass deflector as well as the angle which would also dictate distance and direction.
 
Just chiming in on the 17 which I have owned and shot the last several years. I outfitted mine with an ACOG TA11J, changed out the charging handle, grip and added the Geissele super scar trigger on it. Mainly using it to shoot steel plates but looking forward to taking it on a hog hunt in the near future.
 
_Broke_ said:
And you think I'm bad Clark? Lol... I love how you're trying to act as if you're innocent and not disagreeing or trying to argue when you clearly are. Why don't you actually answer his question and tell us all your educated opinion on the cause of his 5th round flyer rather than trying to amaze everyone with something you wrote back in 1999 and at every chance you get you copy and paste it for a reference to impress us with math skills that I might add are relevant in the context of a handgun, NOT and AR which you'd have to account for the brass deflector as well as the angle which would also dictate distance and direction.
Click to expand...

I am asking the question, "Have you got anything?'

It seems intuitive to me from other guns that bullet move first, move fast, bolts move last and move slow.

But I could be wrong.

Have you got anything?
 
Perhaps the bolt behaves differently in motion which effects the the way the gun behaves in recoil which effects group size when it's traveling across an empty magazine compared to having another cartridge to be chambered.
 
That SCAR is a sweet rifle.

As for what causes the flyer, who cares? That is a combat rifle, not a snipper rifle.

And I will have to look at Clark's calculations with some skepticism. Has he even taken the modulus of the bolt into account? Geeez.
 
The SCAR-H is a pretty nice gun and the accuracy you are seeing is about normal for them. Will be nice in a few years when the prices hopefully come down a little and the aftermarket has more upgrades for them.

Enjoy it.
 
Clark said:
I am asking the question, "Have you got anything?'

It seems intuitive to me from other guns that bullet move first, move fast, bolts move last and move slow.

But I could be wrong.

Have you got anything?
Click to expand...

Yet the only evidence to the contrary you provide is some formula you came up with for a pistol which isn't relative to an AR. You don't actually reply to the points given and you refuse to acknowledge the other party said they didn't want to get into the debate and trash the thread in the first place. Instead you're trying to bait under the guise of honest intellectual discussion when you and I both know you're waiting to pounce with the same rhetoric that gets brought into the same debate every time this topic gets brought up. Stick to engineering Clark because your bullshitting skills are preschool at best.
 
_Broke_ said:
Yet the only evidence to the contrary you provide is some formula you came up with for a pistol which isn't relative to an AR. You don't actually reply to the points given and you refuse to acknowledge the other party said they didn't want to get into the debate and trash the thread in the first place. Instead you're trying to bait under the guise of honest intellectual discussion when you and I both know you're waiting to pounce with the same rhetoric that gets brought into the same debate every time this topic gets brought up. Stick to engineering Clark because your bullshitting skills are preschool at best.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I have never heard of this debate before, and I have been posting every day on gun forums for 20 years, since before there were www gun forums. I was the #1 poster on rec.guns on the old usenet part of the internet, with over 100,000 posts.

If I pull one of my ARs, I see the gas is tapped 10 inches from the muzzle and 13 inches from the breech.
I know that 25 gr 4895 55 gr Vmax is a typical load.
Quickload shows that load with a 23" barrel having pressure fade from 20kpsi to 10kpsi in the 0.3 ms it takes the bullet to get from the gas port to the muzzle.
The bolt assembly weighs 11 ounces.
The piston [bolt carrier key] has an inside diameter of 0.18" = 0.025 sq in = 1.6 EE -5 Meters squared
30kpsi = 2 EE 8 Newtons/Meter squared
Force = 2 EE 8 x 1.6 EE- 5 = 3.2 EE3 Newtons
11 ounces = .31 kg
Acceleration = F/M = 3.2EE3 Newtons/ .31 kg = 1.03 EE4 meters/ second second
time = 0.3 ms
Velocity = acceleration times time = 1.03 EE4 m/ss x 3 EE-4 s = 3.1m/s = 121 inches per second max speed when the race is over.
The bolt has averaged half that speed = 60 inches /second and has 4 inches to go to lock back.
While the bullet's average speed is 34,800 inches/sec and has 10 inches to go.

In .0003 seconds the bolt has travelled 0.018" and is 0.4% done
In .0003 seconds the bullet has traveled 10" and is 100% done and gone
 
Clark said:
Seriously, I have never heard of this debate before, and I have been posting every day on gun forums for 20 years, since before there were www gun forums. I was the #1 poster on rec.guns on the old usenet part of the internet, with over 100,000 posts.

If I pull one of my ARs, I see the gas is tapped 10 inches from the muzzle and 13 inches from the breech.
I know that 25 gr 4895 55 gr Vmax is a typical load.
Quickload shows that load with a 23" barrel having pressure fade from 20kpsi to 10kpsi in the 0.3 ms it takes the bullet to get from the gas port to the muzzle.
The bolt assembly weighs 11 ounces.
The piston [bolt carrier key] has an inside diameter of 0.18" = 0.025 sq in = 1.6 EE -5 Meters squared
30kpsi = 2 EE 8 Newtons/Meter squared
Force = 2 EE 8 x 1.6 EE- 5 = 3.2 EE3 Newtons
11 ounces = .31 kg
Acceleration = F/M = 3.2EE3 Newtons/ .31 kg = 1.03 EE4 meters/ second second
time = 0.3 ms
Velocity = acceleration times time = 1.03 EE4 m/ss x 3 EE-4 s = 3.1m/s = 121 inches per second max speed when the race is over.
The bolt has averaged half that speed = 60 inches /second and has 4 inches to go to lock back.
While the bullet's average speed is 34,800 inches/sec and has 10 inches to go.

In .0003 seconds the bolt has travelled 0.018" and is 0.4% done
In .0003 seconds the bullet has traveled 10" and is 100% done and gone
Click to expand...

That's a whole lot of math that I'm not versed enough to argue with nor do I want to. You've been on here a long time and this has been discussed before so it's amazing with all your history here on the internet and everywhere else you've all the sudden never heard of this. It sounds like you spend more time online than anywhere else including shooting. Again for the 4th or 5x... please give us your best guess for a common 5th round flyer and how you suggest fixing the issue? What? No mathematical equation to explain it?
 
Clark, I could check your math. Instead I am reading an article about a girl who cut her boyfriend's pecker off.

Could you please post a force diagram relevant to your calculations?
 
Clark,

It's not about how long a .223 bullet spends in the bore. It's about what happens before the bullet leaves the bore. Of course, having reportedly made over 100,000 posts before gun forums were even invented you probably already know that. Which makes me wonder what all that math is intended to prove.
 
I've got two SCAR 17s and two 16s, so you could say I have a SCAR problem (looking for a 12 step program). First thing you do when you get a SCAR 17 is order the Geiselle Super SCAR trigger, install it as soon as you get it and put the stock trigger in your spare box. The trigger is more important than an optic on the SCAR if you want accuracy. I'm really not a precision shooter (not a goal for me), but the G trigger on the SCAR made a big difference because it really takes a lot of the effort and most all the creep out. It helps during fast shooting, but by not as much. Best $325 dollars you can spend on a SCAR.
 
I am yet to use a Geissele but I have a Timney 3.5lb trigger on my 17 and it was like night and day versus stock. Its a simple drop in (less then 20min install) and feels crisp and clean. I can't say enough praise on how much I enjoy it now.
 
*Bones* said:
A slightly heavier barrel would be nice as an option

Bones
Click to expand...

Scar 17 SASR 21" heavy barrel - hi-desertdog.com - (Powered by CubeCart)

Check that out. 21" bull barrel.

This is what excites me!

Scar 17s, 260 Rem conversion. - hi-desertdog.com - (Powered by CubeCart)

And this.

Scar 17s 5.56/223 conversion kit - hi-desertdog.com - (Powered by CubeCart)

I found this website the night before I purchased my SCAR 17. After seeing a 260 conversion for under $1000 I was sold. Now I just need to get a few hundred more $ for a trigger.
 
I just picked up a Geissele Super Scar trigger from Outdoor Gear Barn $289. Can't wait to shoot with it.
 
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