AMP Annealing Made Perfect is a load of horse manure?

[secondofangle2]

Have the Giraud, got AMP recently, really impressed. Until tonight.

I ran Aztec on a 50 BMG RWS case and got my code during setup. Tonight I was bored and figured I'd check some other manufacturer brass, just to see and record the different codes. So I did a LC '95 case. Code was higher. Great. Did a Lapua 50 BMG case. Code was between LC and RWS. Great. Then I said to me-self, Amigo, run that Lapua case again. The first time it was 2274. I ran it again. It wasn't even close. I forget the number. Cuz I apologized for me AMP machine and me said to me-self, Amigo, it's because the first time it deformed the neck so of course it's a different number the second time. So I got me 2 new unfired Lapua cases like the first, from the same box and the same lot. Mind you, these are $5.50 a piece. And the next one was 2269 and the third one was 2282.

So, these are not so far off from one another me says to me-self, but then me gets to thinking. If a f'n Lapua case, considered the best in the industry, with the possible exception of RWS/RUAG (I ain't burning any more of those up!) has a *variability* of this "perfect" code of 13 points, what point is it to be "perfect"? Cuz the Lapua brass ain't "perfect"! And if there is that much variability in the brass, then why do we need these codes to be so precise? Why not round to the nearest 5 or 10?

I suspect there's some clever marketing at work, and EVEN IF the machine is so precise, it doesn't matter because the signal from the machine is lost in the noise of brass variability.

Let that sink in for a few minutes, all of you, who like me, touted the "set it and forget it, it's perfect" sales pitch of the machine.

Hell, I may be better off with Tempilaq and me Giraud flame annealer.

Go burn up $20 of Lapua brass and come back and tell me what you find.

 

[Backcountryguy]

I might be “crazy” but I like the Annie Annealer more than the AMP

 

[Ruskin]

I would like to hear the AMP guys chime in on this. I would like to know what the Aztec number means. Is it time or time and temperature? Don’t know. But I do know the the amp guys know a whole lot more than I do about metallurgy.

 

[Bradu]

I have wondered what would happen if you ran several pieces of the same lot in Aztec mode. I don't know how much those numbers vary as far as actual annealing temps but it's good to see someone curious enough to experiment.

 

[secondofangle2]

I just happened to have 10 pieces of Bertram 338 Lapua brass, 12x fired that I could sacrifice for a test. Here are the codes rendered by the AMP for these 10 pieces:

0159
0158
0158
0157
0158
0160
0157
0158
0154
0158

So, with thinner brass, it is no surprise that the measurement variability goes down. But what if, just by happenstance, you selected the 0160 case to "Aztec" your lot, or the 0154? Does AMP tell you how this deviation from "perfection" affects the final result? Like is that 20 degrees and 1 second or 1 degree and 0.200 second? Do we not care, because we trust them inherently? And if we do, and it doesn't matter, then WHY ARE THERE DIFFERENT CODES FOR SOMETHING THAT DON"T MATTER?

Why are the codes this granular and precise? Why not just 0155, 0160 and 0165? In which case my Bertram brass would be an 0160 and call it a day.

Again, it appears to make little sense to make your measurement capabilities far more precise than the inherent variability of the thing you're trying to measure.

Unless you have consulted the marketing team. And they said something about "perfect". And Perfect became part of your name.

 

[shoot4fun]

And this thread is why I still rely on my Bench-Source.

 

[Jrb572]

If I remember correctly. Sometimes I don't. You weren't just supposed to pick a case by just grabbing it and checking it. How I thought it was supposed to work was you took ten cases weighed and measured neck thickness and went for a case that fell in the mid range of it all and use that case. I know I have 1000 same lot .308 lapua and they range in weight and a few odd ball neck thickness from each other.

 

[lte82]

If I remember correctly. Sometimes I don't. You weren't just supposed to pick a case by just grabbing it and checking it. How I thought it was supposed to work was you took ten cases weighed and measured neck thickness and went for a case that fell in the mid range of it all and use that case. I know I have 1000 same lot .308 lapua and they range in weight and a few odd ball neck thickness from each other.

I was typing the same thing. Exactly correct.

 

[secondofangle2]

Ok. Suppose that’s correct. Fine.

but what happens to the outlier cases?

You either discard them, or they go through the “perfect” annealer and don’t come out “perfect” - cuz they’re imperfect.

“That’s not the machine that’s the brass!” I hear you exclaim.

Yes, and that is my point. Nothing is “perfect” when there are “imperfections” if you are willing to call them that, in brass manufacturing.

Allow me to envision a truly “perfect” machine - one which measures the bras like AZTEC mode does but in real time and without destroying it, and which anneals it, based on its composition, to “perfection” each case, each time. That is perfection.

What these guys call perfection is not anything near it from an engineering perspective. It is *only* perfect if the cases are perfect.

Mandatory listen here my friends - now REALLY listen here:

if there is manufacturing variability and measure this and measure that and sort this and sort that - then there is NO POINT in the Aztec - you guys who sold me a $1409 machine ought to have measured this and that and figured out the variance and built that into the machine.

instead of having end users burn up countless pieces of brass so you can FALSELY advertise that your machine is “perfect”

Horse manure. Like the OP said.

 

[XLR308]

This thread kind of reminds me of some of the " So I Bought A Borescope " and inspected my barrels threads. ??

 

[secondofangle2]

This thread kind of reminds me of some of the " So I Bought A Borescope " and inspected my barrels threads. ??

Yeah. Don’t buy a borescope. I did last year and sold it!

And don’t buy an AMP?

makes me wonder.

 

[super_poot]

Anyone that wants to get rid of their "horse manure", please PM me.
I will pay shipping.

 

[Bradu]

Ok. Suppose that’s correct. Fine.

but what happens to the outlier cases?

You either discard them, or they go through the “perfect” annealer and don’t come out “perfect” - cuz they’re imperfect.

“That’s not the machine that’s the brass!” I hear you exclaim.

Yes, and that is my point. Nothing is “perfect” when there are “imperfections” if you are willing to call them that, in brass manufacturing.

Allow me to envision a truly “perfect” machine - one which measures the bras like AZTEC mode does but in real time and without destroying it, and which anneals it, based on its composition, to “perfection” each case, each time. That is perfection.

What these guys call perfection is not anything near it from an engineering perspective. It is *only* perfect if the cases are perfect.

Mandatory listen here my friends - now REALLY listen here:

if there is manufacturing variability and measure this and measure that and sort this and sort that - then there is NO POINT in the Aztec - you guys who sold me a $1409 machine ought to have measured this and that and figured out the variance and built that into the machine.

instead of having end users burn up countless pieces of brass so you can FALSELY advertise that your machine is “perfect”

Horse manure. Like the OP said.

You just have to buy RCC brass to go along with the AMP to get the perfect results ?

 

[secondofangle2]

I’m tempted but it’s too soon to tell and given AMP direct sales and Black Friday you have better opportunities elsewhere.
And just to be clear - none of that resolves the concerns raised in this post

 

[secondofangle2]

No man. Insert “brass manufacturer” here. That brass is so f’n perfect, none of this matters. It doesn’t even need annealed. Until maybe 90 firings. Ask the benchrest guys. Do you even reload, Bro?

 

[Bradu]

All kidding aside, most lapua that I've measured is so close in neck thickness using a tubing mic that I can't see it making that much difference if you sorted it and used an average for the Aztec mode. I haven't measured anything past a 338 lapua so I can't say for certain with the 50 brass that you burned up. If a person neck turned a handful of pieces, that would eliminate some of the variables for the testing but at what point is it just a waste of time.

 

[secondofangle2]

And at what point is “perfect” annealing just a waste of time?

 

[Kadams1563]

And here I am just AMP’ing my cases like there is no issue. Weighed around 50 and picked the one that fell right in the middle. No problems since.

Y’all can stay using your flames, turning the lights off, smearing some liquid in each case and guessing all you want. I’ll stay with my horse manure machine and be done loading by the time y’all “got the flame just right”

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

There is undoubtedly an acceptable range. I would guess the test mode tries to get you in the middle of it.

Does anybody even know what those numbers mean in the programming. Is it time or current or a combination?

 

[straightshooter1]

And at what point is “perfect” annealing just a waste of time?

Now that's the question I sought out to better understand just what really needed to be done. I carefully read the AMP's test articles along with some other scientific articles about the changes in brass (like we have in rifle cartridges). Based on all that I've read, it takes pretty high temperatures to "over anneal" the brass. . . higher than turning it orange when heating it up. There's a lot of leeway in the annealing process. And apparently, the "perfect" annealing job is more one of aesthetics where the discoloration on the case looks "perfectly" even all the way around and at the same distance down the case, which AMP's machine does very well.

The annealing we typically do doesn't really make it much softer so much as it relaxes and re-aligns the structure of the metal. The important thing is to heat the desired area of the case as quickly as possible so that the rest of the case doesn't get anneal and retains it's spring back that you can extract the case.

Since a metallurgist made a point about how hard it is to really over cook (over anneal) the brass, though one can do it like if you turn it red hot), I don't worry about getting the temperature just so any more. My annealing has been working just fine and I attribute significant part of my low SD's and ES to that. And, I'm a lot more relaxed about my annealing process with some confidence that I'm not likely to screw it up.

 

[lte82]

Question for the experts. What type of annealer is Lapua, Alpha, and Peterson using on their brass at the end of forming the shoulder / neck? A flame annealer set up based on a Tempilaq reading, or a computer controlled induction based system? And why?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Buys precision instrument. Doesn’t follow directions. Gets mad when precision instrument spits out precision numbers for pieces of brass with varying thicknesses. Continues to complain instead of using the setting in the middle that said instructions advise.

Meets all the standards of awesome thread.

Tagged

 

[ZEROGUY]

Question for the experts. What type of annealer is Lapua, Alpha, and Peterson using on their brass at the end of forming the shoulder / neck? A flame annealer set up based on a Tempilaq reading, or a computer controlled induction based system? And why?

Saw a YouTube video of some brass factory tour(can’t remember the brand). Part way through the process they showed the necks getting annealed. Used an open torch flame on a rotating drum, kinda like the annealeze.

I saw no Tempilaq being used.

 

[Steel head]

Buys precision instrument. Doesn’t follow directions. Gets mad when precision instrument spits out precision numbers for pieces of brass with varying thicknesses. Continues to complain instead of using the setting in the middle that said instructions advise.

Meets all the standards of awesome thread.

Tagged

 

[Jrb572]

Saw a YouTube video of some brass factory tour(can’t remember the brand). Part way through the process they showed the necks getting annealed. Used an open torch flame on a rotating drum, kinda like the annealeze.

I saw no Tempilaq being used.

I bet they tell everyone hey we are going to turn the lights down low so we can see how theses cases glow. So be careful around the heavy machinery for a while. I bet the have someone that knows how to test hardness and check it through out the day. It does not matter if it’s flame or induction as long as they are getting the hardness that is required

 

[secondofangle2]

Buys precision instrument. Doesn’t follow directions. Gets mad when precision instrument spits out precision numbers for pieces of brass with varying thicknesses. Continues to complain instead of using the setting in the middle that said instructions advise.

Meets all the standards of awesome thread.

Tagged

my machine came with zilch for instructions. No manual. Just one page of pretty useless stuff. So I watch all their videos and set it up.

it may be another point altogether, but if there is this sophisticated setupprocedure (nobody has yet provided a link to it) then it’s pretty irresponsible to send out the $1500 machine without instructions I think.

unlike many folks I don’t join tribes. I have two very expensive machines and I’m just reporting what I see.

And it ain’t “perfect”

 

[MikeInUtah]

I would say the variability you are seeing doesn't warrant returning to flame annealing. Unless you can compare spreads with AMP annealed vs. flame that supports that. Although the AMP is not perfect, my point and experience with it is that there is far greater variability with flame.

 

[Dthomas3523]

my machine came with zilch for instructions. No manual. Just one page of pretty useless stuff. So I watch all their videos and set it up.

it may be another point altogether, but if there is this sophisticated setupprocedure (nobody has yet provided a link to it) then it’s pretty irresponsible to send out the $1500 machine without instructions I think.

unlike many folks I don’t join tribes. I have two very expensive machines and I’m just reporting what I see.

And it ain’t “perfect”

Yep, the instructions are super hard to find......

You might want to consider joining a tribe that actually learns how to use their 1500 machine before complaining about it.

 

[AIAW]

I think mine is broken also...

 

[dbransco]

I would say the variability you are seeing doesn't warrant returning to flame annealing. Unless you can compare spreads with AMP annealed vs. flame that supports that. Although the AMP is not perfect, my point and experience with it is that there is far greater variability with flame.

Exactly. I don’t have don’t have a AMP yet (just bought one) and have been using a Giraud. I don’t have many complaints with the Giraud, as it’s a great Annealer, but everyone is wrapped up in the “perfect” temp. and time; consider Tempilaq has an accuracy of plus or minus 1%. That’s 16 degrees if Annealing at 800 degrees, then additional variances stack when you account for the user. Did the user react to the melting Tempilaq properly, was the casing placement proper, etc.
I’m sure we’re splitting hairs here, but one of the positives I see with the AMP is consistency. Whether you are Annealing at the top, bottom or middle of your “perfect” temp. range, you are doing that every time and reduced your error or variance to that of the brass consistency.

 

[antithesis]

So you purchased an expensive piece of equipment without reading the manufacture's data, instead relying entirely on community posts apparently none of which pointed you back to the manufacture's site to read the data? Then, you pick the most expensive brass and proceed to test with it.

Since you can't find it and nobody else has posted it for you, here is the write-up on which brass to select (note that they see a difference in new unsized but fired, new sized and fired) and how the variations happen.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/46/annealing-under-the-microscope/

 

[shoot4fun]

Yeah. Don’t buy a borescope. I did last year and sold it!

And don’t buy an AMP?

makes me wonder.

I have a friend who tried annealing with flame. He didn't buy one of the better annealing machines though and that was a mistake. He became so frustrated with the issues this machine added to the "art" of annealing that, once they became available, he jumped on the AMP and swears by it.
I think, whether or not AMP actually is "perfect", it was a change for good because, IMO, he gets better results from it over the flame annealers. He just couldn't grasp the whole concept.
I have another friend who, after talking to him about annealing in a very good conversation, decided on his own to go with a Bench-Source. His results to this point have been excellent.
Point to all this is that it isn't the tool as much as the understanding of the tool's capabilities and how to apply them correctly.
Now, the borescope IS a very valuable tool when, as I just stated, it is used correctly. I've use mine for inspecting the condition of chamber and throat areas. It is not a crystal ball for telling me when a barrel is not going to perform like I want any longer. I've caught bad chambers and just plain worn out barrels but, more importantly, I have shown shooters that they haven't cleaned as well as they said they did. I can't tell you how many times I've found as many as two very distinct (and even to the point of being dangerous) carbon rings.

 

[secondofangle2]

All 3 Lapua 50 BMG cases weigh exactly 866.3 grains. So different case weights is not the explanation for the variance I discovered last night

 

[secondofangle2]

So you purchased an expensive piece of equipment without reading the manufacture's data, instead relying entirely on community posts apparently none of which pointed you back to the manufacture's site to read the data? Then, you pick the most expensive brass and proceed to test with it.

Since you can't find it and nobody else has posted it for you, here is the write-up on which brass to select (note that they see a difference in new unsized but fired, new sized and fired) and how the variations happen.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/46/annealing-under-the-microscope/

the Lapua brass all weighs the exact same so some people will be interested in the fact that, since AMP does not include instructions with the machine, I stumbled upon variability that has not heretofore been reported and I found it in fact because I did use a honker cartridge like 50 BMG with high quality brass.

a reasonable person interested in the truth would find this all enlightening.

 

[ZEROGUY]

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If your far enough into this game you’ve invested in an AMP, what’s another 8k towards a hardness tester?

Make sure your $1500 machine is doing exactly what what you kinda maybe think it should be doing based on a unscientific internet consensus on a gun forum.

I mean if you don’t drop $8000 on this machine your really just guessing how effective your annealing is, and what a waste of money and time spent on all the other gear will be if you can’t get your sd’s below 2.

 

[Jrb572]

well then send them six fired and a believe sized cases then if you don’t trust the Aztec mode. Or just sell it if you are that unhappy

 

[Dthomas3523]

the Lapua brass all weighs the exact same so some people will be interested in the fact that, since AMP does not include instructions with the machine, I stumbled upon variability that has not heretofore been reported and I found it in fact because I did use a honker cartridge like 50 BMG with high quality brass.

a reasonable person interested in the truth would find this all enlightening.

Except you haven’t measured the case neck wall thickness.

Also, they advise not to use unfired brass.

You haven’t stumbled upon anything. You have zero testing that suggests that you wouldn’t be getting a good anneal if you used your average piece of brass, used the Aztec code, and annealed all your brass with that code.

At this point, what you have is a rambling mess because the numbers (that you have no idea what they mean) are different.

 

[antithesis]

the Lapua brass all weighs the exact same so some people will be interested in the fact that, since AMP does not include instructions with the machine, I stumbled upon variability that has not heretofore been reported and I found it in fact because I did use a honker cartridge like 50 BMG with high quality brass.

a reasonable person interested in the truth would find this all enlightening.

I have an original AMP that was upgraded to Aztec. I have an early version of the firmware that came with the sort feature that they have since discontinued. Mine came with an instruction guide that I have never read. The instructions also contain their website address. I had already read everything on their site prior to purchasing, and still go back to their site every couple of months to see if they have published anything new. In today's world, especially when you are buying something that can be upgraded by flashing the firmware/OS, printed instructions are pointless.

As for the cases weighing the same but result in a different setting, if you read the article I posted you will see they checked the thickness of brass and found that one of the cases had a 9.6% difference a the shoulder to neck junction. Differences in this section will change the setting. I would imagine that any variation in a 50 BMG case would be amplified (more surface area, greater dispersion of the difference). Since not even Lapua sends brass that is all exactly the same OAL, unless you measured neck thickness, OAL, primer pocket depth, and then weighed, you would not have know if they were likely to be the same.

Personally, I think you own a screw-up regardless of if there is something wrong with the machine or not. You tested brass that was not fired therefore your readings are worthless. Without knowing jack about metallurgy, I would say that Lapua's method of annealing and manufacture process results in cases that do not have the exact same hardness but working that brass would bring it back to a closer proximity. If that is even close to what is going on, testing the work hardened brass would give you a better result.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

A couple of things....

1.) You need to use fire formed cases only.
2.) 3 randomly selected fire formed 50BMG cases are not going to weigh exactly 866.3gr each. I flat out don't believe that.
3.) There will be some variability in the returned AZTEC codes..this isn't some made up number. It's the machine returning a value for when that piece of brass got to a specific temperature.
3a.) If you were truly using fire formed brass, that is most likely weight, neck wall thickness, or composition of the brass itself.

You can expect to see some variability in the machine...however that will be taken to the extreme when you're fire forming something like a 50BMG.

As an example, on .308 Palma brass you might see +/- 1, but those cases only weight ~173gr.

Lastly, AMP isn't going to share the method it uses to calculate the AZTEC code. That IP is their entire selling point, otherwise somebody else would just make a bunch of Annie annealers stateside, and undercut the hell out of them.

 

[secondofangle2]

Maybe some folks on the fence will stumble upon all this and say “yeah, I’ll stick with my Giraud. (Or Benchmark, annealeez, etc) This ain’t rocket science after all.”

Litz did tests IIRC that showed it did zero for SD anyway.

I do it so my 50 BMG 375 CT and 338 LM brass lasts longer. And my Giraud was probably sufficient for that purpose.

I bought the hype about “perfect” and this is a letdown for me.

that is all. Take it or leave it.

SOA2 out.

 

[secondofangle2]

A couple of things....

1.) You need to use fire formed cases only.
2.) 3 randomly selected fire formed 50BMG cases are not going to weigh exactly 866.3gr each. I flat out don't believe that.
3.) There will be some variability in the returned AZTEC codes..this isn't some made up number. It's the machine returning a value for when that piece of brass got to a specific temperature.
3a.) If you were truly using fire formed brass, that is most likely weight, neck wall thickness, or composition of the brass itself.

You can expect to see some variability in the machine...however that will be taken to the extreme when you're fire forming something like a 50BMG.

As an example, on .308 Palma brass you might see +/- 1, but those cases only weight ~173gr.

Lastly, AMP isn't going to share the method it uses to calculate the AZTEC code. That IP is their entire selling point, otherwise somebody else would just make a bunch of Annie annealers stateside, and undercut the


your hunches about Lapua and RWS 50 BMG cases are not accurate. They are astonishingly consistent. I don’t have hunches about them, I have weighed and filled more than my fair share with water

 

[BoilerUP]

I’ll trade you an 8lb jug of Varget for it.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I don't understand how you have come to any conclusions based off what you've done. It's literally mind blowing.

1.) You failed to read and follow instructions, and are now bashing a product on a forum; recommending other products that are inherently less consistent.

2.) Litz has conducted a single test on .223 brass that was by his own admission flawed (and has multiple sets of data removed). He specifically called out that the test wasn't conclusive, and as a result he would be testing in the next version of Modern Advancements.

3.) If you are annealing for SDs, you bought for the wrong reason in the first place.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[Tchitcherine]

“Perfect” is a term of the cult of Marketing. The cult of Engineering doesn’t use it, except negated.

 

[MarinePMI]

Hmmm... "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth an prove otherwise."...oops, too late for the OP...smh...

 

[secondofangle2]

375 Cheytac Bertram 11x fired 3 cases

1. Case weight 23.29g code 148
2. Case weight 23.18g code 0153
3. Case weight 23.19g code 0150

 

[Dthomas3523]

375 Cheytac Bertram 11x fired 3 cases

1. Case weight 23.29g code 148
2. Case weight 23.18g code 0153
3. Case weight 23.19g code 0150

So, you use the 0150 and go.

Your theory is you stumbled upon trying different cases in the AMP, got different codes, and this is something AMP didn’t do and didn’t make their machine capable of annealing within the ranch of case variations??

 

[_Windrider_]

375 Cheytac Bertram 11x fired 3 cases

1. Case weight 23.29g code 148
2. Case weight 23.18g code 0153
3. Case weight 23.19g code 0150

Looks like 150 would be a good average

 

[Jrb572]

Email Alex from AMP. Maybe he can explain it to you what you are seeing. He is normally really quick to get back and helpful