- Thread starter Dthomas3523
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I am getting: This video is unavailable.
Yep. It’s noticeable. However, noticeable is relative from person to person as well as the discipline you shoot. The more consistent your trace and numbers from round to round, the more consistent your chrono and groups are.
I will likely refrain from posting a ton of data. As I’m tired of the push back from the “my equipment from 1995” can do that.
So it’s an arbor press? Supposed to produce consistent results? How about consistency begins at the sizing station and that’s where the runout occurs? Fix it at sizing station and a lee seating die will give just as accurate as the “amp press” no?
If only runout actually mattered. Fortunately, it doesn’t.
And has nothing to do with this press either.
So measuring Consistency is all it does
That’s all any of our comparators do.
It’s up to you to interpret the data and use it to make better and/or more consistent ammo.
And before we get into the “I can do it already with xyz.”
No, you can’t accurately or consistently feel and/or record data every ~ .2mm, let alone quantify or use what you think you can feel.
No, you can’t accurately or consistently feel and/or record data every ~ .2mm, let alone quantify or use what you think you can feel.
You’re right. But they’ve been making consistent ammo for a long time before this came out.
Want consistency? Fully automate every operation. Then there’s no guess work. Machines do exact same thing fully repeatable.
If that were true, you wouldn’t be able to make better ammo at home than factory ammo.
Also, you don’t know what “consistent” is until you’re able to measure it. This is another tool to advance our ability to measure and make decisions.
You could make phone calls and get online without a smart phone. Advancements happen all the time. This industry is no different except we always seem to think our 1970 rock Chucker still does the same.
Here are graphs from very small changes in brass prep that you can either barely or not feel with the best manual arbor press you could buy prior.
They all do some different things on chrono and paper. But you’d never know why before you could measure this.
I could literally write a term paper on what you can do with this press we couldn’t before and I’ve had it less than two weeks.
They all do some different things on chrono and paper. But you’d never know why before you could measure this.
I could literally write a term paper on what you can do with this press we couldn’t before and I’ve had it less than two weeks.
Attachments
Also, please let me know how we could already:
Keep track of the total work done during seating of every round. Find the SD of total work. Then cull out every round not within 1 unit of SD from the average work done.
This culls out 30% of your loaded ammo from a batch and keeps you inside a single SD measurement.
Keep track of the total work done during seating of every round. Find the SD of total work. Then cull out every round not within 1 unit of SD from the average work done.
This culls out 30% of your loaded ammo from a batch and keeps you inside a single SD measurement.
if that were true every QC/QA person would not have a job.
as @Dthomas3523 has shown its not just the data...there is tons of data out there
its having the knowledge base and willingness to rethink what you already "know as fact"
99.9% of people are unable to look at data unbiased, which leads them to either:
make incorrect decisions
or
discount the data for being in accurate
Process improvement is primary and should be on someone's mind when utilizing a new piece of equipment or reviewing data
(of course that is after IQ/OQ/PQ)
Track trend review..is how efficiency and quality improves
...thats how you begin to reload higher quality at a increased rate
higher quality is not always better, it could be the same quality but with less out of spec product slipping through
Interesting. How long did it take to figure ol that was the problem? And not consistently seating the base of the cartridge in a collet exactly the same way every way?
Took about 5 min to figure it out.
Just by it’s very nature, if something requires a pilot to work, it will always touch. Otherwise the pilot would not be needed (giruad, IDOD, etc don’t require a pilot).
The minute the brass touches the pilot (almost always) it will always be touching.
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Also, I tried it without the pilot and with a .22 pilot.
Just the weight of the brass and that it’s only supported at the rim….it chatters all over the place.
So, all but impossible for it to operate without contact.
Just the weight of the brass and that it’s only supported at the rim….it chatters all over the place.
So, all but impossible for it to operate without contact.
I had one and changed up to this. I’ll be switching back.
And also IDOD with cnc for trimming as well.
That is unfortunate, being that you are in a rather small group that have mod rights to police and weed out those baseless claims and BS.
If you get tired of it being in your position- just think how much other useful data is potentially held back from the site from typical users that don't want to 'contribute'.
Oh, I know. Why do you think guys like Cortina, Litz, Bynum, Sisk, Wheeler etc etc don’t really post on any forums anymore? They were all very active on at least one forum in the community.
...and you wonder why top BR, F-Class, Smiths, OEM mfgs dont post here much anymore
people refuse to open their eyes and believe there is a better way
especially when that way may cost more than they are willing to spend or are capable of spending
so they lash out to discredit rather than say thanks while asking data driven questions
forgot to add...
how many more times will someone ask a question about barrels (possibly Bartlien) and Frank Green actually chimes in (using his name and company for example only)
the OP then goes on to argue with him
"why doesnt he post much anymore"...because the Fudds make the advice and professional opinion not worth their effort
how many more times will someone ask a question about barrels (possibly Bartlien) and Frank Green actually chimes in (using his name and company for example only)
the OP then goes on to argue with him
"why doesnt he post much anymore"...because the Fudds make the advice and professional opinion not worth their effort
Guys that shoot on weekends, telling guys that shoot full time, that they are stupid.
As long as that persists... we'll continue to see a refusal to participate. I'm saving myself the headache this time around too. My content hits youtube and instagram... take it, leave it. I'm not getting drawn into an argument about it. Sorry for those of you that want more, but it isn't as if my phone number can't be found.
As long as that persists... we'll continue to see a refusal to participate. I'm saving myself the headache this time around too. My content hits youtube and instagram... take it, leave it. I'm not getting drawn into an argument about it. Sorry for those of you that want more, but it isn't as if my phone number can't be found.
I’m def not trying to argue with anyone here about how great equipment is getting. It’s nice. Too damn expensive UNLESS you’re in long range competition. But like anything else? If you have to say you have the best of the best? That’s fine. I just find that some act superior to others because they own more expensive equipment.
the Amp. Press: all it is is an actuator plotting the pressure of the bullet seating from start to finish. Good info for those that want to know? It won’t be long, someone will ask, what’s the best seating to die to get? and you’ll have 50k ppl state Amp press. There’s nothing better and everything else is garbage. Lol
just like fluxeon vs amp: fluxeon doesn’t test the brass. But it’s not a pain to set it. It’s just a consistent as an amp for half the price. But all you’ll hear is why did you settle on that over the amp? I guess because I wasn’t born with a golden spoon up my ass to spend the extra $600 on one. I never heard someone buy a new sports car that cost em say $70k and someone say you should’ve gotten the one that cost $130k. Lol but many other products you’ll hear em say that….
someone going to the local 100yrd range spending $10k on reloading equipment can’t shoot any better than the guy who spent $1k on all Lee equipment if he never practiced further. Some of the new technology makes things very conveniently nice though.
the Amp. Press: all it is is an actuator plotting the pressure of the bullet seating from start to finish. Good info for those that want to know? It won’t be long, someone will ask, what’s the best seating to die to get? and you’ll have 50k ppl state Amp press. There’s nothing better and everything else is garbage. Lol
just like fluxeon vs amp: fluxeon doesn’t test the brass. But it’s not a pain to set it. It’s just a consistent as an amp for half the price. But all you’ll hear is why did you settle on that over the amp? I guess because I wasn’t born with a golden spoon up my ass to spend the extra $600 on one. I never heard someone buy a new sports car that cost em say $70k and someone say you should’ve gotten the one that cost $130k. Lol but many other products you’ll hear em say that….
someone going to the local 100yrd range spending $10k on reloading equipment can’t shoot any better than the guy who spent $1k on all Lee equipment if he never practiced further. Some of the new technology makes things very conveniently nice though.
Please don’t be to discouraged.
I enjoy your posts.
I am certain many others do as well.
Thank you!
Make your own thread and discuss it.
Don’t bring it to threads that are highlighting when a company develops something new.
Let’s say it turns out to be a flop (it won’t be), but it funds AMP to making something that is revolutionary…..that’s still a win for the community.
And actually yea…..dudes driving a Lamborghini would always tell the guy driving the Corvette “if you can afford it, get the Lamborghini.”
Also no….the Annie that doesn’t analyze the brass isn’t “just as good” as the machine giving you customized annealing for your cartridge.
I can’t give you better results than that. Fact is not EVERY reloader needs an amp press.
Also no….the Annie that doesn’t analyze the brass isn’t “just as good” as the machine giving you customized annealing for your cartridge.
And how can you not customize annealing on an Annie? You just anneal 1/10 of a sec up or down and shoot it. Is analyzing the brass a guarantee you’re annealing at the best possible time? How do you know if you’re just letting the machine do the work of analyzing if you’re not shooting it and tweaking those those numbers it’s set to?
I’m not downing the amp. There’s a lot of guys new to reloading and everyone will tell them to get an Amp. And yes. The amp is top of the line and great. And those who have will market it as great which it is. But not everyone needs that to produce great ammo right?
Wizard, please do not derail this thread. What started out as good, factual, information is now being diluted with "this other stuff is just as good". Please stop and let the rest of us see what DThomas and Orkan have discovered. Start a separate thread discussing other tools that can do the same thing.
Thank you for sharing! This is fantastic info. Thank you!
I honestly thought Wizard's post was a joke until it kept going. You definitely hit the nail on the head. Please keep posting your thoughts. I haven't been able to get an AMP Press yet but will be when I can. I'm very curious to see reports on neck turning. I've been thinking about moving my 21st century and simplifying. I'm also curious on effects of different tumbling media. I've been intrigued by @orkan 's rice vs wet stainless chips or dry walnut. Been following your youtube videos and f-class john who's currently looking at differences in chamfering. Looking forward to Cortina's videos as well.
Amen.
Thank you.
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LOL!
You're good. You're really good. You almost had me. I had a big ol' post typed up talking about personal responsibility and proper mindset before I remembered that no one can be told a single thing on these forums. People won't let others help them here.
So... let me respond in a manner befitting the level of help I think you'd accept:
Great post! You're a genius! Good job!
P.S. - I don't compete... I just like having my bullets actually go where I want them to. Weird right? Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find something I can't afford and claim that my cheap thing is just as good as their expensive thing and talk nasty about it and the people who buy it instead of just going and making the money I need for the thing I want.
P.S.S - Just kidding, I'm not doing that.
P.S.S.S - No one has anything when they are born. Just because your parents were poors doesn't mean you need to be.
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Between my Prometheus, AutoDOD, CPS, AMP press & laptop, Annealer, giraud alone... I have over $17k spent. In totality for all my reloading gear, who even knows. Yet I don't regret any of the stuff I currently use. I have boxes full of cheap garbage tools that don't get used... if I could have avoided purchasing that trash, I'd be money ahead. If you honestly think that your cheap stuff can make as good of ammo as all my expensive stuff... we don't have anything to discuss, because you are operating on some alternate reality that is void of logic.
Thank you for yet another post, that demonstrates exactly why I only begrudgingly and often refuse to participate.
So... let me respond in a manner befitting the level of help I think you'd accept:
Great post! You're a genius! Good job!
I’m sorry. You failed to interpret my point. So basically what YOU stated was the fact you CANT produce accurate ammo without top of the line. However! Ppl have been doing it for years. Is it the most accurate they could produce? No. Had they had this in 95 as you say? They might be able to squeeze out a bit more. I’m saying not everyone who’s into reloading needs it to produce accurate ammo. Guys have been shooting 1000yrd matches open sight for awhile. Long before these inventions took place. Did they travel into the future to produce that kind of accurate ammo? Or did they spend more hours at the range learning how to read the environment? Accuracy is only as good as the one behind it right? You can have one person use top of the line equipment and can’t hit the broadside of a barn….LOL!
You're good. You're really good. You almost had me. I had a big ol' post typed up talking about personal responsibility and proper mindset before I remembered that no one can be told a single thing on these forums. People won't let others help them here.
So... let me respond in a manner befitting the level of help I think you'd accept:
Great post! You're a genius! Good job!
P.S. - I don't compete... I just like having my bullets actually go where I want them to. Weird right? Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find something I can't afford and claim that my cheap thing is just as good as their expensive thing and talk nasty about it and the people who buy it instead of just going and making the money I need for the thing I want.
P.S.S - Just kidding, I'm not doing that.
P.S.S.S - No one has anything when they are born. Just because your parents were poors doesn't mean you need to be.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Between my Prometheus, AutoDOD, CPS, AMP press & laptop, Annealer, giraud alone... I have over $17k spent. In totality for all my reloading gear, who even knows. Yet I don't regret any of the stuff I currently use. I have boxes full of cheap garbage tools that don't get used... if I could have avoided purchasing that trash, I'd be money ahead. If you honestly think that your cheap stuff can make as good of ammo as all my expensive stuff... we don't have anything to discuss, because you are operating on some alternate reality that is void of logic.
Thank you for yet another post, that demonstrates exactly why I only begrudgingly and often refuse to participate.
Jesus dude, shut the fuck up
How many records are still standing from 20-30 years ago…
and you do realize that some of the best shooters in the world are not the best wind readers. Some of the BR guys pay attention to only one of the many flags when reading environmentals
Maybe we shouldn’t use a laser range finder because Mildots still work
Or possibly stop using a weather meter and use a E6-B Sliderule for DA.
It’s called progress and evolution don’t fight it
Personally, I think the AMP press is rad. It's a very unique and cool tool that measures and records stuff that previously was impossible. Do I need one? IDK. Do I want one? Kinda. Do I think it's for everybody. Nope.
@Dthomas3523 please continue posting as you come across cool stuff you discover with it, while as it's true there are going to be people (even pretty heavy into this stuff) that may not be willing to go there, sometimes we need people pushing us closer to the cliff.
That said, and not aimed at anyone in particular (well, maybe Orkan
), the "more expensive shit is always better" mantra, IMHO, is probably the single most annoying and dumb thing one encounters in the rifle community, and is absolutely not true every time and in every particular case. That "gear elitism attitude" can be really fucking lame. It always ends up being "the Indian not the arrow", let it go.
It shouldn't be a surprise when people balk at something that is very specialized and niche, yet is also quite expensive, when for some it's tough to see the value and/or even grasp what it even does. So while it's certainly annoying to constantly have to circle back to price when discussing some new piece of gear on the scene (especially in a sport/hobby where $100 bags of sand are ubiquitous), it's not exactly fair to say "well, you're poor, so you're also dumb"; it's not that simple.
On the other hand, no one else makes anything even remotely like it. Nobody. So it will cost what it costs until someone else makes something that can do the same things at a cheaper price-point ...and then, maybe we'll have a choice to buy something less expensive. But, let's all be real here so we can stop bogging the discussion down talking about cost: seeing as it's a computer-controlled bullet-seating-force-variable/consistency-measuring bullet seating press, and there may not even be 3 guys in one's whole town that could put it to use and even knows what it's for, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to ever be cheap exactly...
@Dthomas3523 please continue posting as you come across cool stuff you discover with it, while as it's true there are going to be people (even pretty heavy into this stuff) that may not be willing to go there, sometimes we need people pushing us closer to the cliff.
That said, and not aimed at anyone in particular (well, maybe Orkan
), the "more expensive shit is always better" mantra, IMHO, is probably the single most annoying and dumb thing one encounters in the rifle community, and is absolutely not true every time and in every particular case. That "gear elitism attitude" can be really fucking lame. It always ends up being "the Indian not the arrow", let it go.It shouldn't be a surprise when people balk at something that is very specialized and niche, yet is also quite expensive, when for some it's tough to see the value and/or even grasp what it even does. So while it's certainly annoying to constantly have to circle back to price when discussing some new piece of gear on the scene (especially in a sport/hobby where $100 bags of sand are ubiquitous), it's not exactly fair to say "well, you're poor, so you're also dumb"; it's not that simple.
On the other hand, no one else makes anything even remotely like it. Nobody. So it will cost what it costs until someone else makes something that can do the same things at a cheaper price-point ...and then, maybe we'll have a choice to buy something less expensive. But, let's all be real here so we can stop bogging the discussion down talking about cost: seeing as it's a computer-controlled bullet-seating-force-variable/consistency-measuring bullet seating press, and there may not even be 3 guys in one's whole town that could put it to use and even knows what it's for, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to ever be cheap exactly...
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Hi,
Geezus Christ!!!!
What is next? Savage 270 shoots as good of groups as a Speedy Gonzales built BR rifle or factory ammo is as good as ammunition made by Don Geraci (NBRSA Hall of Famer and only person to ever win the NBRSA Berger Shootout 3 years in a row).
IF anyone ever wonders why the large manufacturers do not participate on forums in general......May this thread by the written in stone reminder to everyone.
Edited To Add:
People just need to learn to read, sit back and STFU sometimes. Who goes onto a yachting forum to discuss how their 12' aluminum boat producing the same affect of floating on water.......
Sincerely,
Theis
Geezus Christ!!!!
What is next? Savage 270 shoots as good of groups as a Speedy Gonzales built BR rifle or factory ammo is as good as ammunition made by Don Geraci (NBRSA Hall of Famer and only person to ever win the NBRSA Berger Shootout 3 years in a row).
IF anyone ever wonders why the large manufacturers do not participate on forums in general......May this thread by the written in stone reminder to everyone.
Edited To Add:
People just need to learn to read, sit back and STFU sometimes. Who goes onto a yachting forum to discuss how their 12' aluminum boat producing the same affect of floating on water.......
Sincerely,
Theis
