Suppressors Area 419 TBAC adapter POI shift

[lennyo3034]

I have a TBAC ultra 7 that I was hoping to utilize for certain stages on a comp rifle. Example: shooting from inside a barrel.

Unfortunately with my CB adapter, the POI shift is too great to be able to do this, about 6” vertically and 2” horizontally at 100 yards. With my zerostop set unsuppressed, I can’t even get a 100 yard zero suppressed.

However I just watched this video and thought it was impressive:


For those using this system, how much POI shift is there from the brake to the suppressor? I recognize repeatability is more important, but that seems to be pretty decent with both systems. Right now with the POI shift the way it is, I tend to just leave the suppressor at home.

 

[teerex]

That is well within normal. The important part is that the shift is repeatable forming taking the can on and off. I never expect to be able to hit the same POI going from a can to a brake. Every can, and barrel set up is going to be be different, there is no hard rule about how much something will shift. The can I use the most is a couple MOA straight down from the from my brake on a rem varmint barrel and much less on a marksman or M24

 

[MBanning]

I don't use this setup but I would not change muzzle devices during a match. Brake or can, pick one and stick with it.

 

[Zak Smith]

If you have a shift, it is going to be because of the (potentially mis-) alignment of your barrel shoulder or the harmonics of the barrel/rifle, and changing to another "perfect" muzzle device is unlikely to change your POI shift. Assuming both muzzle devices are in "perfect" alignment.

 

[lennyo3034]

I’ve tried 3 different barrels, 2 different CB brakes and all have the same shift.

It sounds like the Area 419 system isn’t going to get me what I want. I understand there will always be a shift but was hoping to minimize it. The shift is indeed repeatable but I’ve tried dialing the shift and got lost mid match.

If I could reduce it to what it shown in video, that would be my goal, guess that’s not going to happen.

 

[bluegrasspicker]

Zak, could you expand on the effects of barrel shoulder alignment on poi shift? It's not clear to me how that works, but I know you've put way more thought into this than I have.

I ask because I have a Savage (don't judge, it's a chick magnet) with a poi that's about ~7 mil off of the scope's mechanical zero. The poi shift due to a suppressor is ~.9 mil.

Are you saying that if I didn't have this 7mil out-of-whack issue that the poi shift due to a suppressor might be different?

 

[just browsing]

I’ve not seen many guys use suppressors for some stages and then brakes for others... It’s more hassle than it’s worth and it introduces even more variability over the course of a match.

Either shoot with the can or don’t shoot with the can. I use the 419 Hellfire system and POI shift is minimal between can and brake (.1-.2) but I still wouldn’t swap between them during a match.

Assuming you don’t like the added weight/length shooting with the can, either shorten the barrel or lighten the rifle via other methods.

 

[lennyo3034]

I’ve done this successfully using a gas gun and my Surefire. It’s POI shift is .2 vertical. I run the brake most of the time but certain stages are excessively loud with a brake.

That being said, the precision gas gun matches I’ve shot have had larger target sizes than bolt guns matches so they are more forgiving.

 

[Zak Smith]

Give me a call, it's really weird to have the exact same shift on multiple barrels and brakes.. unless it's the same rifle hosting each combination and then the common element is the rifle

 

[lennyo3034]

Yes, it is the same rifle. ARC Nucleus action.

I have another rifle with CB flash suppressor but I never tested the POI shift. I will do so this weekend.

 

[Zak Smith]

It might just be the flex of the action/barrel interface. One thing I've noticed is that some of the switch-barrel rifle designs have on average more POI shift than conventionally torqued barrels, but I am not sure if that corresponds to your setup or not.

 

[samb300]

I’ve tried 3 different barrels, 2 different CB brakes and all have the same shift.

It sounds like the Area 419 system isn’t going to get me what I want. I understand there will always be a shift but was hoping to minimize it. The shift is indeed repeatable but I’ve tried dialing the shift and got lost mid match.

If I could reduce it to what it shown in video, that would be my goal, guess that’s not going to happen.

Are you saying this has happened only with the Area 419 setup, or does it also happen with the factory TBAC 30CB brake?

I continue to use the factory TBAC brake as I shoot 100% suppressed, unless I choose to shoot a local match across the border in IL. When I go from braked to suppressed I have a repeatable 0.2 down 0.1 left shift. I don't swap between them in a match but I'm confident it wouldn't cause any issues.

 

[lennyo3034]

Are you saying this has happened only with the Area 419 setup, or does it also happen with the factory TBAC 30CB brake?

I continue to use the factory TBAC brake as I shoot 100% suppressed, unless I choose to shoot a local match across the border in IL. When I go from braked to suppressed I have a repeatable 0.2 down 0.1 left shift. I don't swap between them in a match but I'm confident it wouldn't cause any issues.

I’ve only used the TBAC CB system. I’m asking people who have used the Area 419 how much shift they get. The video above shows minimal shift but I wanted to see user experiences.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

So you ask a question and then get answers related to a different question and often it's annoying, but here comes another one. I have two TBAC suppressors used on various rifles and don't have any shift along the lines of what you are seeing so I doubt that your problem lies with the brake/attachment system.

 

[just browsing]

As Zak said above, every rifle/system is different, with different variables contributing to different results. Just because one does not have issues does not mean that someone else will not.

The shift on the Area 419 system, across 3 of my rifles is minimal. That does not mean it will be the same as the video posted above or OP if he were to switch.

 

[lennyo3034]

I decided the only way to know is to try myself. Area 419 kit is already here and I was planning on testing it tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I was using the TBAC on an AR with a 1/2-28 CB adapter. When I went to screw it off, the can took the brake with it, which unscrewed from the barrel. Apparently the rocksett did not hold up.

I screwed it back onto an old shot out barrel with a ton of loctite. I'm letting it set all day, but hoping its strong enough to hold so I can screw the suppressor off the CB brake.

 

[teerex]

You may potentially get a little bit less shift because you’d be taking the brake off and putting the can on instead of just putting a can on. I use the 419 system on multiple rifles with a few different cans. The heavier the profile barrels I have, have less shift. I wouldn’t personally change muzzle devices during a match.

 

[Midwestside]

When I went to screw it off, the can took the brake with it, which unscrewed from the barrel. Apparently the rocksett did not hold up. .

5 years ago Area419 had this for the BA.

Don't know if they have one for the CB version if you really get in a pickle.

 

[LawnMM]

Never seen a guy switch muzzle devices mid match, only seen folks shoot all brake or all can. ?

 

[lennyo3034]

Never seen a guy switch muzzle devices mid match, only seen folks shoot all brake or all can. ?

I’ve done it, but rarely. Like maybe 2 stages a year. That was with a gas gun and Surefire.

I usually run a brake but stages where I have to place the rifle inside something really get to me.

I tested the Area 419 system today and am very happy with it. Top group is with hellfire brake. Bottom is with Ultra 7. Forgot rear bag an called two with the suppressor. About .3mil vertical shift total. I can live with that for 2 stages a year.

Obviously I’ll have to rezero for the new brake, but I think I’m good to go. I may not end up using the suppressor, but this is good enough to at least bring it with me.

 

[LawnMM]

What about doubling up on ear pro?

 

[lennyo3034]

What about doubling up on ear pro?

Already do. Foam plugs under MSA’s. I should probably just go full time suppressed, but I’ll keep switching until I screw it up.

 

[NukeMMC]

POI shift between suppressed and unsuppressed is not just a factor of thread/rifling/device alignment. You can have absolutely perfect sub-.0001" alignment and still have a significant shift due to changes in barrel harmonic deflection during bullet dwell time before exit. Leakby gases that travel in front of the bullet will also have an effect as they are impulsing on baffles prior to bullet exit. Back in the day, Palma shooters would spec barrels that were closer in bore size to the bullets they would be issued by the host nation. A UK 7.62 Radway round would be spun better in a tight bore barrel (.298/.307 bore/groove vs. .300/.308) and resulting leakby gases would have less effect on bullet exit, even on bare muzzles. If you are running a longer, smaller profile barrel, the moment is larger to affect the barrel with that weight on the muzzle, so the effect will be more noticeable. Thin 5.56 battle rifle barrels can deflect as much as 3mm in the first .2sec of firing.
As stated above, if the accuracy is equal with or without the can or device, run it for the match in 1 configuration. If you insist of running different conditions, you have to remember to change the zero to accommodate. An added point of failure in a stressed environment.

 

[PFG]

6” vertical shift seems like a lot.

I’ve never experienced more than 2” from unsupressed to TBAC on.

 

[dirthead1]

I have an Ultra 7 that I have used on guns ranging from 223 to 300 win mag, with multiple guns in 6.5 creedmoor and 308. All have had some poi shift when the can was installed except for my aiax. Usually it was .1-.3 mils at 100. When I bought my aiax, it had a gen 2 little bastard brake. I sighted it in then removed that brake and installed a tbac cb brake. No change in poi. Then I installed the ultra 7. Zero change in poi. I have no idea what’s different about the ai, but it shoots in the same hole with and without the can installed.

 

[Zak Smith]

Well the AI is a superior rifle platform, so....