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Rifle Scopes ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MP15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At any rate, one thing I think most will agree upon is that Scott is "the face" or front man of alot of the products we buy. To that end, he has done a first rate job. When you get that new optic or accessory from Liberty Optics, what comes to your mind first? The brand of the item, or how you were treated over the sale of that item? Personally each time I use one of the items I've bought from Scott, I don't think Vortex, or Borka, or Butler Creek brand, I think of the great way I was treated by Scott.

It's that image and reputation that ATI will never have and can't buy. </div></div>
<span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">+10000000000</span></span></span></span>
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Never made puechase from Liberty Optics before but hearing the amount of support they have here I will make it a point to make my next purchase with them. As for ATI thanks for finally putting an end to that little voice in my head saying "You need one of these" every time I saw one.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

The only thing I can do is speak with my billfold!! Scott humped these scopes and helped them get off the ground, providing great customer service while doing so.
Hate to see a vendor get punished for MSP. Because thats whats happening! Premier and ATI have scott to thank for alot of sales and product exposure. His customer service made up for the abrasiveness of the owners personality. And to ATI, I have never really wished anybody bad luck,but I hope you receive what you so desperatly deserve!!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is unethical to turn a ‘blind eye’ on a practice that hurts the majority, even if that practice brings in extra sales for a few or the one. </div></div>

With the majority, I assume you consider ATI, Premier and 'the other' retailers, rather than the real majority, ie. the end customers of Premier scopes.... what a pitty......

This actually reminds me on how the music & film industry employed a few thousand lawyers instead of a few hundred computer geeks, to counter the threat from illegal downloads that came with the Internet revolution.. did people stop downloading videos and music? Hell no. Did the industry provide smart and user friendly means for legal downloads, not for the first 5-10 years..

Greed is always gonna bite you in the ass when you protect the wrong persons interests, and a product is always focused on the end-user (in the Real World)..
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I am just a simple country boy, but I do spend money, and I won't be giving it to anyone who sells a guy merchandise and then tells him what price he can sell it for, especially when it is the manufacturer/distributor trying to level the field for other dealers who have higher overhead. Sounds like socialism to me. Piss on that.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:

Armament Technology Incorporated is a small company started by me in 1988 with a one-thousand dollar investment. As a national class long range rifle shooter, my goal for the company was to bring better equipment to the shooting community. Since then we have grown into an International Distributor specializing in top-of-the-line weapon Sighting Systems for military and commercial customers. We pride ourselves on our business ethics as well as fairness to our Dealers, and in our 22 year history we honestly feel that we have never left a customer unsatisfied.

When we agreed to purchase millions of dollars worth of rifle scopes from Premier Reticles, we did so because we believe they are the very best on the market. We then went forward to put these products in inventory for prompt delivery to our Dealers and their customers. In conjunction with Premier, we set Minimum Advertised Pricing that would support the business model. The MAP we set is certainly not excessive for a product of this quality and is in fact as low as we dared in order to keep the business healthy. From the beginning we received complaints that one or two Dealers were selling the product at a profit margin that was below that which was required by the majority to pay rent, hire employees and do the advertising required to stay in business.

In order to not lose the Dealers that buy the majority of the Premier products from us, we had to enforce the Minimum Advertised Price policy that we have in place. To That end, certain Dealers, in exchange for our very lowest pricing, were asked to sign a document that assured us that they were adhering to the policy. The signature at the bottom of the document was really meant to be an assurance that the Dealer understood the policy and would agree to do business with us under those terms. When the term of the agreement expired, we did not insist upon signing a renewal in that the subject was referenced in our regular Terms. Despite the fact that Liberty Optics signed the original document, and clearly understood their obligation, rumors persisted that the scopes were being sold at prices far below that which would sustain the production and business. Because our company does not respond to rumors, we took no action until we were presented with unsolicited evidence that the practice was taking place (our company does not have any relationship with the individual that purchased the scope). Upon presentation of the facts that Liberty Optics was not keeping their end of the agreement or at least the spirit of the agreement, we had no option but to suspend Liberty’s account for a three month period. Provisions were made to allow Liberty to satisfy any orders they had already taken. Apparently those offers have been refused.

For our company this whole issue is about someone not keeping their word on an agreement. When agreements between business partners are broken there has to be some responsive action, otherwise nobody else we have ever made agreements with will see the value in either side honoring the deal. It is unethical to turn a ‘blind eye’ on a practice that hurts the majority, even if that practice brings in extra sales for a few or the one.

This incident has been an unfortunate one, although I feel that the biggest loss is the support of the shooting community for Premier products. These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere, and I hope that the members of the Sniper’s Hide forum can put this argument between businesses behind them and go back about the business of engaging targets at extreme ranges.

Respectfully,

Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated
</div></div>

Mr. Webber,

First of all, whatever you claim to have been or started out as, your personal company goal at present is clearly about taking as much money from long range shooters as possible, not putting the best equipment in as many hands as possible.

Your opinion about what is a fair price for your products is just that, your opinion. In a truly competitive market, the price for your product would be determined by the ebb and flow of competition and resources on both the production and consumer sides. I understand that as scale increases, the need to predict revenue increases as well, but that is no excuse for pretending to let a product's merit sell the product rather than manipulate sales across the vertical spectrum.

Either take the moral high ground and truly let your products compete (and abandon the gentleman's agreement between manufacturers to participate in horizontal price-fixing), or else admit that you are no different than any other cut-throat businessman who could care less about long term market sustainability and only looks to his own time, manipulating the legal industry every way possible to ensure increasing profit margins.

But whichever you choose, please do not walk amongst the commoners and tell them that you are just like them, that they could be just like you, and that all they have to do to be happy is to ignore the details and buy your products. That sort of cheesy salesmanship is best left to the politicians and special-interest sellouts. There is certainly nothing respectful about it.

Examine your definition of business ethics and your misplacement of the word "fair".

It's pretty straightforward - if the manufacturer sells the product at a price which pays the rent and is satisfactory, and the middleman does the same, and the end dealer as well, who exactly is hurt? Oh yes, the other dealers whose poor business choices or practices do not keep them competitive. I like to call it "business welfare" or "free-market marxism". And just like socialism, the group at the top has something to gain in the short term from all of the "fairness".

I'm not saying don't chase your dollar at the expense of your moral compass, but don't expect people with common sense to swallow the maneuvering.

Scotty
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I was looking at buying three scopes this year, specifically Premier from Scott. After putting money away here and there and tax refund, I was planning to get a Sako in .338 as well as two more scopes for a few guns with no glass. I will look for either S&B or Hensoldt.

The one thing that I will never forget with Scott, LO is he cares about his customers and tries to deliver good product, with fast shipping, and <span style="font-weight: bold">Customer Service</span>. I remember a few years back, I had some questions about a scope and had no time at work. He told me to call him after work (friggin 2AM) and he would help. Talking about scopes at 2AM making sure I'm squared away is a testament to his cutomer service.

That sir (ATI) is why I buy from Liberty Optics
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Let me start by saying I work sales for a wholesale distributor and deal with vendors from the small mom and pop to as large as 5 million dollar ones. We have dealt with MAP pricing many times per request of these vendors and this has followed to our accounts and how they sell product.

This is how I look at it:

It is VERY SIMPLE. MAP pricing is just that minimum ADVERTISED price. Plain and simple. This is why we commonly see "call for price" on things we shop for everyday. Last time we had a go around with our second largest vendor they were asking our accounts to adhere to MAP pricing for what they were posting their products at online but if THEY CHOSE to sell it at a lower price then that's their business as long as the ADVERTISED price was no lower then the minimum.
This is exactly what were dealing with now. If Scott chose to sell IN PRIVATE at a lower cost and take less margin then that's his business as he was not advertising at a lower price. Furthermore if the contract had expired then that's a whole other issue. No current contract, no current obligations.
ATI/PR has no ground to stand on here, they can post their reply to the issue on the Hide but they still wont acknowledge the whole MAP issue. So lets hear it ATI... did he break MAP?

Lastly it's just poor business practice what they did and for it they will not ever see my money. I stand by Scott as he has always treated me very well. In the business world that goes a long way. May ATI can learn a thing or two from him.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

1. Has anyone taken the steps to forward this to the appropriate Attorney Generals to file a complaint on MSP, which ATI admitted to in their post?

2. Because ATI said they didn't run the sting operation, but that someone volunteered the information to them, can we go after the ass-clown that screwed over everyone else?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marksman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Has anyone taken the steps to forward this to the appropriate Attorney Generals to file a complaint on MSP, which ATI admitted to in their post?

2. Because ATI said they didn't run the sting operation, but that someone volunteered the information to them, can we go after the ass-clown that screwed over everyone else? </div></div>

Whatever we think of these guys it serves no one to have firearms firm brought to the attention of the anti- gun legislative mob. I don't know if there is a case or not but I'd rather the jury be us and our money the judge. In the end, regarding their product, Premier and their technical partners are innovative and ambitious. Thats to all our benefit. It's just a shame that they've adopted the Charlie Sheen Method of Management.

There's been enough back and forth that for those who have the ability to understand the difference between MAP and MSP can determine who they will or won't support. The rest... well, we'll always need someone to ask if we want fries with that.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Damn, ATI fucked up BIG TIME. You guys are obviously trying to make your Minimum ADVERTISED Price policy to a Minimum SELLING Price. Honestly I hope somebody takes your ass to court. Scott easily has a case for a civil suit after what you guys have admitted in public, and that he is now out of sales profits because of your price fixing attempts. I don't see this ending well for you guys at all.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Mr Webber, a MAP is a Minimum Advertised Price policy -"A" as in "advertised" (normally this means TV, Press or Internet). it does not mean any form of written sales receipt or invoice, that would be absurd.

MAP's generally accepted purpose is to prevent open discounted selling to the detriment of other dealers who have invested in staff, stock and premises.

It does not preclude sales being made direct to buyers at a price determined by the retailer/dealer - "Face to face deals".

If I have read Liberty Optics case correctly, they have been punished because a Sales Invoice or personal proposal (NOT an openly available advert or promotion) was presented to Premier by their appointed MAP enforcer (who solicited same document). This as a result of complaints by other (presuably less successful) dealers who are competitors to Liberty.

This is not enforcing an MAP but imposing an MRP (a euphemism for price fixing, illegal in many countries, and I thought in the US?) under the pretext of MAP.

I fully understand the uses of an MAP and the reasons for implementing them to protect bona fide business partners (we use it in our business) but, from my reading of the situation with Liberty, I have to say Premier and the other organisations associated with the action taken (ATI and others) don't look too clever or come out of this well.

You have to be prepared for some significant blowback on this.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Premier = innovative?

I think you will find that Premier is basically a rip off of a S&B

God knows how much Intellectual Property & trade secrets was stolen and ripped off in the making of a Premier.

The fact that a S&B engineer designed the scope speaks volumes.

Id hardly call them innovative in any sense. Their scopes are actually very typical of the rest of the industry. albeit with worse reliability

Given recent events it seems to me that Premier will use any illegal and unsavoury methods to ensure profits
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, ATI fucked up BIG TIME. You guys are obviously trying to make your Minimum ADVERTISED Price policy to a Minimum SELLING Price. Honestly I hope somebody takes your ass to court. Scott easily has a case for a civil suit after what you guys have admitted in public, and that he is now out of sales profits because of your price fixing attempts. I don't see this ending well for you guys at all. </div></div>

yeah right. it doesn't sound like they were under any obligation to supply him with product anymore. lost profits? they suspended his account for a limited time. the op came here and permanently suspended it.

i don't think anyone was trying to hide that they had a minimum selling price policy. they apparently had every dealer sign that agreement, not just the op. it sounds like others were upholding their end of the agreement. the op didn't and got caught. if you don't like an agreement, don't agree to it.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

You know precisely fuckall about Scott and are speculating from no facts whatsoever.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mohonri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People like Scott mainly because most on the Hide knows he gives you the best deal.

Premier was nice enough to ONLY suspend his account.

Scott feared loss of business having to explain to customers why he is unable to fill their orders for Premier scopes and unable to give them the best discounts anymore. So he made Premier and ATI look bad.

ATI caught him "undercover" (which should be expected for enforcing MAP pricing) and Scott lied trying to defend his income/reputation of his business.

As a customer of course we like Scott. As a business with MAP pricing enforced I would see the issue. Premier's reaction is lenient and expected.

Premier in their response seems the most professional and reasonable.

Scott, well played, but for someone with such a esteemed reputation on the Hide I would have figured you would have taken the high road instead of going after Premier and ATI like this. Though it seems like the loss of income on Premier Scopes may be offset by the new customers who hate paying MAP/retail pricing and businesses enforcing of it by this hate thread. I think this was a poor choice for your reputation and character. <span style="font-weight: bold">Sounds like Scott's reputation is based on price rather than his character.</span>

Point is it is not right for Scott to end up being the sole source for Premier Optics because people know he is the cheapest. He is cheating his competition to grow his business. Premier needs to keep things even and fair between retailers so they have a larger exposure to the market.

Sounds like Scott has ruined his business with one manufacturer and likely others. Despite how much people want to support him it does nothing if he can't stock product because manufacturers are not happy with his pricing. <span style="font-weight: bold">You cheat Scott by not paying MAP, Scott cheats the his competition by charging less than MAP.</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">If you really supported Scott you would pay full price. If Scott really deserves the reputation claimed here he would not cheat his competition with pricing, but win with service!</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I will not do business with Scott at Liberty Optics.</span></span>

I would consider a Premier optic if I ever found the need and was in the budget for one just like any other scope in that category.

If Premier needs to lower their MAP, they will!</div></div>
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i don't think anyone was trying to hide that they had a minimum selling price policy. they apparently had every dealer sign that agreement, not just the op.</div></div>

I don't know why this needs to be repeated after dozens of pages in three different threads but there was no MSP agreement; there was a MAP agreement, and that MAP agreement was no longer in force. He (LO) didn't break any of their rules.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

What ATI does't understand is we deal with Scott because of his <span style="font-style: italic">character</span>. Not because he undercuts his competitors with LOW LOW LOW PRICES!

ATI also doesn't comprehend how the gun industry works with regards to forums and lapses in character and judgement. See Cooper Arms, HS Precision, and Jim Zumbo.

ATI, you just cut off your nose to spite your face. You don't get the internet and you don't know when a good man busted his ass to get your scopes out there on the market.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

It seems this whole situation is another example of the piss poor business practices that are taking place in this country. It is getting alot of negativity because of the way it is making us, the consumers feel. I think if it were any other product it would have had the same response.
The only difference is that we the consumers, in this case, might actually be able to hit back. Kinda like Obummer and GM (you probably get what I'm trying to say).
As for the relationship between ATI and PR... You lay with dogs, you get fleas. As for the behavior of both... A greedy pig will run out of food.
As for me, personaly, I have never been a fan of Premier's over priced POS. I prefferre a nice European overpriced POS if'n I'm gonna spend that much $$. Other than that, I'll have a good, cheap, non-POS Jap scope. Atleast I know where it was made.
From a consumer stand point, Premier and ATI can eat shit.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i don't think anyone was trying to hide that they had a minimum selling price policy. they apparently had every dealer sign that agreement, not just the op.</div></div>

I don't know why this needs to be repeated after dozens of pages in three different threads but there was no MSP agreement; there was a MAP agreement, and that MAP agreement was no longer in force. He (LO) didn't break any of their rules. </div></div>

how do you know there was no msp agreement? have you seen the agreement? map is mentioned constantly but none of us have seen the actual wording of the agreement. what if in the agreement it is worded that they have a minimum selling price?

true, the agreement had lapsed but it sure sounds like the op knew they still wanted to keep it that way. after the agreement lapsed, they were under no obligation to supply him with product.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
true, the agreement had lapsed but it sure sounds like the op knew they still wanted to keep it that way. after the agreement lapsed, they were under no obligation to supply him with product. </div></div>

Very true, they get to choose whomever they supply. I'm just pointing out that it's facetious to say that he violated an agreement that didn't exist.

I don't have a dog in this fight per se (and I have to go to work in about 5mins) but I will say that I have been in similar situations so I sympathize with LO. You get a product at X price from your distributor, sell at X+50% like you're supposed to only to find out that some other guy is getting X for 90% of what you pay and selling for X+30%. So you undercut him and the distributor comes after you and yanks your license because Mr. 90% complained about you. Seen it happen. Anyways I just hate good ole boy networks that are justified by lawyer-speak so that's why this stuff pisses me off.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I would also like to say this about the proprietor of PR... Anyone who pops in for a little diarrhea of the mouth and then ducks out of sight and hides has a giant mangina.
Ok, I feel better.
laugh.gif
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cutnhrse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would also like to say this about the proprietor of PR... Anyone who pops in for a little diarrhea of the mouth and then ducks out of sight and hides has a giant mangina.
Ok, I feel better.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

are you referring to the op in the thread that got this whole thing started or the person who started a thread to respond to that one?