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Rifle Scopes ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

ATI

Private
Minuteman
May 7, 2011
1
0
52
Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:

Armament Technology Incorporated is a small company started by me in 1988 with a one-thousand dollar investment. As a national class long range rifle shooter, my goal for the company was to bring better equipment to the shooting community. Since then we have grown into an International Distributor specializing in top-of-the-line weapon Sighting Systems for military and commercial customers. We pride ourselves on our business ethics as well as fairness to our Dealers, and in our 22 year history we honestly feel that we have never left a customer unsatisfied.

When we agreed to purchase millions of dollars worth of rifle scopes from Premier Reticles, we did so because we believe they are the very best on the market. We then went forward to put these products in inventory for prompt delivery to our Dealers and their customers. In conjunction with Premier, we set Minimum Advertised Pricing that would support the business model. The MAP we set is certainly not excessive for a product of this quality and is in fact as low as we dared in order to keep the business healthy. From the beginning we received complaints that one or two Dealers were selling the product at a profit margin that was below that which was required by the majority to pay rent, hire employees and do the advertising required to stay in business.

In order to not lose the Dealers that buy the majority of the Premier products from us, we had to enforce the Minimum Advertised Price policy that we have in place. To That end, certain Dealers, in exchange for our very lowest pricing, were asked to sign a document that assured us that they were adhering to the policy. The signature at the bottom of the document was really meant to be an assurance that the Dealer understood the policy and would agree to do business with us under those terms. When the term of the agreement expired, we did not insist upon signing a renewal in that the subject was referenced in our regular Terms. Despite the fact that Liberty Optics signed the original document, and clearly understood their obligation, rumors persisted that the scopes were being sold at prices far below that which would sustain the production and business. Because our company does not respond to rumors, we took no action until we were presented with unsolicited evidence that the practice was taking place (our company does not have any relationship with the individual that purchased the scope). Upon presentation of the facts that Liberty Optics was not keeping their end of the agreement or at least the spirit of the agreement, we had no option but to suspend Liberty’s account for a three month period. Provisions were made to allow Liberty to satisfy any orders they had already taken. Apparently those offers have been refused.

For our company this whole issue is about someone not keeping their word on an agreement. When agreements between business partners are broken there has to be some responsive action, otherwise nobody else we have ever made agreements with will see the value in either side honoring the deal. It is unethical to turn a ‘blind eye’ on a practice that hurts the majority, even if that practice brings in extra sales for a few or the one.

This incident has been an unfortunate one, although I feel that the biggest loss is the support of the shooting community for Premier products. These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere, and I hope that the members of the Sniper’s Hide forum can put this argument between businesses behind them and go back about the business of engaging targets at extreme ranges.

Respectfully,

Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Can you please elaborate on what you consider Minimum "Advertised" Price? Is it spoken between Buyer and Seller considered Advertising on a sales call initiated by the buyer? Is it considered Advertised on the invoice?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you please elaborate on what you consider Minimum "Advertised" Price? Is it spoken between Buyer and Seller considered Advertising on a sales call initiated by the buyer? Is it considered Advertised on the invoice? </div></div>
To me it sounds like a "Minimum Selling Price" not a "Minimum ADVERTISED Price"
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

In the end ATI, I don't believe you are going to have a very warm welcome from this forum anymore by burning one of our favorite distributors. I was personally considering one of your new MOA/MOA scopes, but after hearing about your recent shenanigans, you guys can kiss my ass and $3,000 dollars that will be going towards Schmidt and Bender.

 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I thought MAP just meant that you could not advertise at less than that price. Sounds like bullshit when someone tries to tell you what you can sell something for. Price fixing maybe? Did not know that was legal. LO can afford to sell something for less and still pay HIS bills. What is wrong with that. Its called Capitilism in this Country. S&B or Vortex will be my next purchase. I wish Scott sold S&B.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the end ATI, I don't believe you are going to have a very warm welcome from this forum anymore by burning one of our favorite distributors. I was personally considering one of your new MOA/MOA scopes, but after hearing about your recent shenanigans, you guys can kiss my ass and $3,000 dollars that will be going towards Schmidt and Bender.

</div></div>

Come on man, lets looks at this objectively, this is business and I bet NF/SB/USO would all have done the exact same thing.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Maybe, but I'm sure they would have sent some sort of warning before immediately suspending the dealers license. This is just my opinion though. What the hell is one potential customers opinion?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

"sting" operations to enforce MAP pricing? Then, if I understood the "temporary ban" that was immediately implemented, you're screwing over YOUR customers who had orders in through LO? Unfortunate all around.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Can all you nay sayers from previous MAP discussion in this forum - go look it up!!!! As you can see from the companies itself how they interpret MAP and what it really stands for!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I did a quick search on the history of MAP and found this.

In the 2006 Supreme Court case Leegin Creative Leather Products Inc. vs. PSKS Inc., the Court ruled that minimum advertised pricing policies are legal and do not break antitrust laws. As part of this ruling, however, the Supreme Court clarified that while retailers must abide by MAP policies, they may sell products for whatever price they choose.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

sounds like middleman greed to me, what does premier cares about the sale price, they already sold them to said "middleman".
the hell with premier and ATI
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you please elaborate on what you consider Minimum "Advertised" Price? Is it spoken between Buyer and Seller considered Advertising on a sales call initiated by the buyer? Is it considered Advertised on the invoice? </div></div>

Spoken word between retailer and customer on the phone is not an "advertised price" maybe you mean selling price? Anyway, I feel you did Scott wrong at LO. Im sure Scott pays you the money due, so why does it hurt your company for him to knock a little off the top to help the little guys out?

I agree with Poison on this one.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

MAP or MSP which one is it? they are definitely different. by the sound of it ATI thinks MAP is MSP.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

It's funny how "word of mouth" doesn't really work like some people suggested, that this forum is to small a community to make a real difference in the purchase of their products.

Well, it got ATI to sign up and PR to jump on within a day and make statements trying to covers their bums. PR already saying they would only make one response to LO's thread.

Let's see what ATI brings to the table now that the poo has begun to fly, so to speak.
eek.gif
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

ATI,

I think that the way that you went about "enforcing" your contract is in question. That led to question your company’s integrity. We have not seen your contract and quite honestly I don’t care to. You could have had a civil conversation with Liberty and ask them to refrain from these practices. But you did not, you performed a sting operation and based on that information, you made a "snap" judgment and decided to suspend Liberty Optics. Liberty Optics stood by the product and offered awesome customer service, which is not available from most businesses. I cannot speak for others here on the HIDE, however, based on this decision (not the violation of the contract) and the way it was implemented, I will not purchase any product associated with ATI or Premier for that matter.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Andrew, appreciate the transparency and forward nature of your post. However, agreements between you and your dealers are just that and not my concern. Likewise, how you protect those agreements is entirely your choise.

What I would say is Liberty Optics is considered by many here to be a leading service provider. They are a small outfit with good people who are passionate about your industry & so we are passionate about them. For that reason I will be putting my business their way.

Outside of military/leo circles this is a small industry and nobody can afford to be blacklisted, tarnished or have customers turn their back on them. I think you've made your point and I would urge you to lift the ban. I don't think its full implementation will serve any purpose beyond undermining your customer base - call it a suspended stenence if you will.

If you lift the ban, I'm sure many will be sympathetic to your situation and full business can resume for all concerned. I honestly don't believe you should risk losing the reputation of Premier in the eyes of the shooting community but as you can see that is happening at an alarming pace. I hope this unfortunate espisode can be knocked on the head asap.

Thank you
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Dear ATI & PR:

Unfortunately, I own one PR scope. It's a shame because I really like the GEN2 mildot. I am away from home at the moment, but rest assured as soon as I return on Monday, May 16, I will take some photos and sell that POS-PR. I would post it for sale here, but my post count isn't high enough on the hide. I'll post it for sale on another forum with an AR theme where I have a very high post count/feedback. Mods, if this violates any snipershide rules, I'll edit this post. I'm just trying to show that I mean what I say.

ATI, thanks for bringing this to my attention before I bought the PR 5-25x for my .338 Lapua bolt, or the PR 1-10x for my two LMT MWS's. I was considering them over the S&B alternatives, largely because I could buy the PR from Liberty Optics. I'll be watching to see if Liberty starts carrying S&B. I'll be looking for the S&B 3-20 and Short Dot, and I'll looking first from Scott at LO.

Edited to add,
oh yeah, I forgot I'll need to replace the POS-PR that is on my .308 bolt. So looks like two Short Dot's for both of my LMT MWS's, maybe a 3-20 for my .308 bolt, and maybe a 5-25 for my .338 lapua. NONE of which will be a POS-PR, and I hope they all come from Scott at LO. Now that I've had to think about it, I'll consider IOR from Scott as well, especially if he doesn't pick up S&B. I look forward to seeing how many in my sphere of influence I can steer away from PR.

It's kinda funny to think I used to be supportive of PR because I thought they were treated badly by Leupold. Needless to say, that goodwill is long gone.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Consider your 22 year streak of happy customers ended. I will never again buy a product through you or Premier. You clearly seem to have MAP and MSP confused... And last I checked... Only one of them is legal.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I was strongly considering purchasing a Premier sometime in the near future. I have now decided against this, ever, and also decided to push anyone interested in purchasing one away. Myself and many others on this site purchase our optics through Scott because of his excellent service and pricing.
I believe what you did to him is completely out of line. He was using your MAP on his site. He paid you the same amount for the scopes and I don't understand what difference it makes if he sold the scope to a few select individuals at lower pricing. It didn't hurt ATI any on money, it came out of Scotts pocket. I will stand by Scotts decision and will continue to purchase my optics from him.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a quick search on the history of MAP and found this.

In the 2006 Supreme Court case Leegin Creative Leather Products Inc. vs. PSKS Inc., the Court ruled that minimum advertised pricing policies are legal and do not break antitrust laws. As part of this ruling, however, the Supreme Court clarified that while retailers must abide by MAP policies, they may sell products for whatever price they choose. </div></div>

Oldgrayone, thank you for finding this and bringing it to light.

Andrew, I don't think your company did the right thing - and it will probably bear the consequences of that.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Andrew, appreciate the transparency and forward nature of your post. However, agreements between you and your dealers are just that and not my concern. Likewise, how you protect those agreements is entirely your choise.

What I would say is Liberty Optics is considered by many here to be a leading service provider. They are a small outfit with good people who are passionate about your industry & so we are passionate about them. For that reason I will be putting my business their way.

Outside of military/leo circles this is a small industry and nobody can afford to be blacklisted, tarnished or have customers turn their back on them. I think you've made your point and I would urge you to lift the ban. I don't think its full implementation will serve any purpose beyond undermining your customer base - call it a suspended stenence if you will.

If you lift the ban, I'm sure many will be sympathetic to your situation and full business can resume for all concerned. I honestly don't believe you should risk losing the reputation of Premier in the eyes of the shooting community but as you can see that is happening at an alarming pace. I hope this unfortunate espisode can be knocked on the head asap.

Thank you
</div></div>

Well said TJ. I suggest ATI and Premier read this statement very carefully. Your fan base is disappearing quicker then cake at a fat kids birthday party!!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Dear ATI,
By your own admission, you suspended Liberty Optics because they were SELLING product for a price considered by you to be "too low". But that is NOT what MAP is. MAP is supposed to be MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE, not MINIMUM SELLING PRICE. Suspending a dealer for SELLING below a set price is PRICE FIXING and is ILLEGAL!!
You have just set yourself up for a Department of Justice action. I can't guarantee they will proceed with action, but it is clear by both Scott's and your statements that this is a case of PRICE FIXING, not a MAP policy.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

These guys still don't get it. It's minimum ADVERTISED price. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> were being sold at prices far below that which would sustain the production and business.
</div></div>

Also, it's not like Scott was selling 100% of your optics, and if he were, you're still getting the full amount to fun your business. People are still buying them at MAdvertisedP all the time, so what if he sells some less. He's not advertising a price a bit lower.

Andrew, you are still completely in the wrong here. If you change your contract to read Minimum SELLING Price, fine, that's your business. Then you could deal with this on a level that would fly with both dealers and consumers.

All we know is that you have hurt the reputation of your business very much around this close knit community.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a quick search on the history of MAP and found this.

In the 2006 Supreme Court case Leegin Creative Leather Products Inc. vs. PSKS Inc., the Court ruled that minimum advertised pricing policies are legal and do not break antitrust laws. As part of this ruling, however, the Supreme Court clarified that while retailers must abide by MAP policies, they may sell products for whatever price they choose. </div></div>

Good info! The fact that ATI even responded to this issue tells me there thinking WHOOPS... Boy did we screw up!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

"RANT ON"

<span style="font-weight: bold">I find all of this very funny</span>.

I personally find the sentiments spoken here, after all of these pages of this thread will continue for some time. Although it is possible that Scott will lose some revenue generated from the Premier line, that Liberty was in business prior to Premier and will be around long after Premier.

I work as a manufacturers sales rep in two unrelated industries. Each and every manufacturer has some sort of MAP policy. It refers to exactly that. <span style="font-weight: bold">MAP, Min ADVERTISED Price</span>. We all know things get sold every day for less than that. In todays economy as a business when you have a customer that is wanting to spend their hard earned dollars you do anything you can to try and make sure it stays with you.

It doesn't matter if its Sony, Samsung, Dell, Toshiba, Harmon Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Marantz, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, Alpine, Audison, Hertz, JL Audio, Kenwood, Kicker, Memphis, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Polaris, Suzuki. <span style="font-weight: bold">Each and every one all have basically the exact same type of fine print</span>.

In the end, a dealer does what they have to do to get the sale. How many times do you hear <span style="font-weight: bold">"lowest price guaranteed"</span> or we will give you 110% of the difference, etc? We all see those national commercials each and everday.

Scott stepped up and believed in and help get the PH line off the ground (I know I spent five figures with him buying several of those scopes). Then ATI stepped in....had all the dealers sign agreements....inflated the price (seems like a few times now). The scope that could once be purchased for a SH deal of 2---.00 now you are supposed to pay 2895.00 for.

They WERE a good deal, well built (some had a few problems and I think that several of us here on the Hide have helped them fix a few things). Now they got a contract and proly get alot more from the govt per item than we pay for them here. I believe IMHO that Premier was better off before ATI, but they saw like he said above a several MILLION dollar purchase order and got blinded by the dollar signs.

In my industries that I work in, I go to vegas every Jan for the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) trade show. I also go to the INDY Powersports EXPO (big trade show for everything motorcycle industry related). Each year I see my owner shake hands with mass merchants and big box stores that want to buy our product on a very large purchase order and he escorts them out of our booth and thanks them for stopping. Saying this.....We apprecaite your interest, but we are not intersted in doing business with big box stores, that will eventually devalue the product line. It is always funny how they start one hear with a half million, then the next year a million, then the next at two million or ten million to try and see where our breaking point is, but he stands his ground.

Most of the companies I work for also have internet policies which usually mean if you have a website and an online store, if you are going to carry our product it will not be put online where someone can go click it to ship it. That is why there are dealer locaters so you can find someone near you to go find the product. We lose some sales becaue of it but overall it adds strength to the lines.

What I find the most funny overall is that ATI heard about this and decided to become a member and make this his first post, whom knows maybe his only post and he feels he said all he needed to and we can just go back to shooting.

I think NOT, I will continue to use the PH products I own. Only because I don't feel the need to have USO build me scopes with the Gen II XR reticle, and S&B doesn't make that one anymore so they are difficult to find. No fire liquidation sale here. I can only hope that we make sure to spread this news like any advertisement....so tell (7) peope and make sure they tell (7) more. Maybe CS and SWFA can still make plenty of sales to distribute all of the items being manufactured, but in the least maybe ATI will feel it some if we have some follow thru.



"RANT OFF"


<span style="font-weight: bold">To me its not a MAP policy. Its a PRICE FIXING POLICY. So tell it for what it really is....it is a MIN SELLING PRICE</span>.


Whatever price that shows up EVEN on an invoice is not a dealer breaking the MAP policy.

 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The signature at the bottom of the document was really meant to be an assurance that the Dealer understood the policy and would agree to do business with us under those terms. When the term of the agreement expired, we did not insist upon signing a renewal in that the subject was referenced in our regular Terms.</div></div>

The signature at the bottom of the document can only be construed to mean exactly what's contained in the document itself. If you "really meant" to say something different, you should have.

If said agreement expired, and your "regular terms" lacked the same degree of specificity, they can only be interpreted to mean what they state.

At this point I can't help but wonder if the dealer is being punished because of something that was in writing, or something that you wished was in writing.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:

Armament Technology Incorporated is a small company started by me in 1988 with a one-thousand dollar investment. As a national class long range rifle shooter, my goal for the company was to bring better equipment to the shooting community. Since then we have grown into an International Distributor specializing in top-of-the-line weapon Sighting Systems for military and commercial customers. We pride ourselves on our business ethics as well as fairness to our Dealers, and in our 22 year history we honestly feel that we have never left a customer unsatisfied.

When we agreed to purchase millions of dollars worth of rifle scopes from Premier Reticles, we did so because we believe they are the very best on the market. We then went forward to put these products in inventory for prompt delivery to our Dealers and their customers. In conjunction with Premier, we set Minimum Advertised Pricing that would support the business model. The MAP we set is certainly not excessive for a product of this quality and is in fact as low as we dared in order to keep the business healthy. From the beginning we received complaints that one or two Dealers were selling the product at a profit margin that was below that which was required by the majority to pay rent, hire employees and do the advertising required to stay in business.

In order to not lose the Dealers that buy the majority of the Premier products from us, we had to enforce the Minimum Advertised Price policy that we have in place. To That end, certain Dealers, in exchange for our very lowest pricing, were asked to sign a document that assured us that they were adhering to the policy. The signature at the bottom of the document was really meant to be an assurance that the Dealer understood the policy and would agree to do business with us under those terms. When the term of the agreement expired, we did not insist upon signing a renewal in that the subject was referenced in our regular Terms. Despite the fact that Liberty Optics signed the original document, and clearly understood their obligation, rumors persisted that the scopes were being sold at prices far below that which would sustain the production and business. Because our company does not respond to rumors, we took no action until we were presented with unsolicited evidence that the practice was taking place (our company does not have any relationship with the individual that purchased the scope). Upon presentation of the facts that Liberty Optics was not keeping their end of the agreement or at least the spirit of the agreement, we had no option but to suspend Liberty’s account for a three month period. Provisions were made to allow Liberty to satisfy any orders they had already taken. Apparently those offers have been refused.

For our company this whole issue is about someone not keeping their word on an agreement. When agreements between business partners are broken there has to be some responsive action, otherwise nobody else we have ever made agreements with will see the value in either side honoring the deal. It is unethical to turn a ‘blind eye’ on a practice that hurts the majority, even if that practice brings in extra sales for a few or the one.

This incident has been an unfortunate one, although I feel that the biggest loss is the support of the shooting community for Premier products. These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere, and I hope that the members of the Sniper’s Hide forum can put this argument between businesses behind them and go back about the business of engaging targets at extreme ranges.

Respectfully,

Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated
</div></div>

Have you read thru the other thread?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The signature at the bottom of the document was really meant to be an assurance that the Dealer understood the policy and would agree to do business with us under those terms. When the term of the agreement expired, we did not insist upon signing a renewal in that the subject was referenced in our regular Terms.</div></div>



At this point I can't help but wonder if the dealer is being punished because of something that was in writing, or something that you wished was in writing.


</div></div>

Either way, problem solved. It appears they no longer have to worry about LO selling Premier scopes below their set price, and in turn, will sell fewer scopes. Maybe they will have another price increase to offset the drop in sales.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear ATI,
By your own admission, you suspended Liberty Optics because they were SELLING product for a price considered by you to be "too low". But that is NOT what MAP is. MAP is supposed to be MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE, not MINIMUM SELLING PRICE. Suspending a dealer for SELLING below a set price is PRICE FIXING and is ILLEGAL!!
You have just set yourself up for a Department of Justice action. I can't guarantee they will proceed with action, but it is clear by both Scott's and your statements that this is a case of PRICE FIXING, not a MAP policy. </div></div>

+1 Andrew Webber seems to be confused on Advertised price and Selling price. I don't know what their previous agreement was, but, as stated, it had expired. Now it may be up to the Feds to decide the difference, and perhaps clear up any confusion.

Either way, I still disagree with the way they handled their grievance with Liberty, and I too will refrain from purchasing any ATI and PR products... Thanks for narrowing the options down Andrew
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I find it interesting that a manufacture feels a need to open an account on a forum and post their business practices with one of their clients.
You must feel that this forum is important to communicate your business practices too.
You must also feel it is important to “call out” one of your clients by blacklisting them.
You intern, must know the community in which your products are sold to is rather small and close-knit.
So why you choose to do this is beyond me. I do not own one of your scopes.
This post certainly does not encourage me to do business with you.
I wish you sincere luck with Premier and Liberty Optics. But this isn’t in my opinion the best way to promote your business.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you please elaborate on what you consider Minimum "Advertised" Price? Is it spoken between Buyer and Seller considered Advertising on a sales call initiated by the buyer? Is it considered Advertised on the invoice? </div></div>

Spoken word between retailer and customer on the phone is not an "advertised price" maybe you mean selling price? Anyway, I feel you did Scott wrong at LO. Im sure Scott pays you the money due, so why does it hurt your company for him to knock a little off the top to help the little guys out?

I agree with Poison on this one. </div></div>

I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this as I don't have a dog in the fight. I am taking no ones side here. I don't know Scott or do any business w/Premier.

What MAP pricing does is ensure the profitability of a product. It allows large and small dealer alike to make a living selling a product. If the volume buyers are discounting the products too much so that smaller dealers who buy 2 or 3 items a year can't compete, your going to have a limited # of places to purchase the product. That then narrows down the # of dealers to where the manufacturer has all their eggs in one basket (a small dealer base.) If something happens to one of these big dealers it can put a serious hurt on the mfg as a large percentage of their business will dissapear.

Bottom line is it's just business guys. No one is trying to rape anyone here. People are trying to maximize their profits, ensure the overall health of their business, put food on the table and hopefully have enough left to buy some powder and bullets to shoot!!

BTW, I'm not a holy than though crusade either. If any dealer tells you they've never broken the MAP policy on something they are lieing. Not taking anyone's side either. Just want everyone to understand that what this boils down to is mfgs making sure they have a product w/enough profit built in to ensure a diverse and broad dealer base to support them and their product. MAP helps them do this.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

whats a premier? Is that the high end line from BSA?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

pretty much at this point ... what good is the glass when your CS sucks...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

There's so much drama in the optics section I haven't even made it to the bear pit...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:

This incident has been an unfortunate one, although I feel that the biggest loss is the support of the shooting community for Premier products. These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere, and I hope that the members of the Sniper’s Hide forum can put this argument between businesses behind them and go back about the business of engaging targets at extreme ranges.

Respectfully,

Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated
</div></div>

Gentlemen,you are now Dismissed !!! Get back to Shooting !!!
laugh.gif
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3rdgss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you please elaborate on what you consider Minimum "Advertised" Price? Is it spoken between Buyer and Seller considered Advertising on a sales call initiated by the buyer? Is it considered Advertised on the invoice? </div></div>

Spoken word between retailer and customer on the phone is not an "advertised price" maybe you mean selling price? Anyway, I feel you did Scott wrong at LO. Im sure Scott pays you the money due, so why does it hurt your company for him to knock a little off the top to help the little guys out?

I agree with Poison on this one. </div></div>

I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this as I don't have a dog in the fight. I am taking no ones side here. I don't know Scott or do any business w/Premier.

What MAP pricing does is ensure the profitability of a product. It allows large and small dealer alike to make a living selling a product. If the volume buyers are discounting the products too much so that smaller dealers who buy 2 or 3 items a year can't compete, your going to have a limited # of places to purchase the product. That then narrows down the # of dealers to where the manufacturer has all their eggs in one basket (a small dealer base.) If something happens to one of these big dealers it can put a serious hurt on the mfg as a large percentage of their business will dissapear.

Bottom line is it's just business guys. No one is trying to rape anyone here. People are trying to maximize their profits, ensure the overall health of their business, put food on the table and hopefully have enough left to buy some powder and bullets to shoot!!

BTW, I'm not a holy than though crusade either. If any dealer tells you they've never broken the MAP policy on something they are lieing. Not taking anyone's side either. Just want everyone to understand that what this boils down to is mfgs making sure they have a product w/enough profit built in to ensure a diverse and broad dealer base to support them and their product. MAP helps them do this. </div></div>

I feel many understand that MAP "helps," but the actions taken by ATI were harsh and pretty disgraceful, considering LO has been a major influence here on the Hide in getting PR stuff out, from my understanding.

I, also, have no dog in this fight. But as a customer who one day will be looking for a quality piece of glass to put atop my rifles, ATI must realize that there are FAR more options out there for quality optics than just PR stuff, and we customers appreciate businesses who help support us, such as LibertyOptics. The actions ATI took have cast a negative light on them, whether they be "correct" per the business world or not, and I'm afraid it may last for a while. Think back to Beta vs. VHS. Beta was technically superior (from what I'm told, as they were before my time
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), but it was the PAYING CUSTOMER who opted to chose VHS, for whatever reason. The customer doesn't care about the business side of things in most cases, but their money will decide who's product wins out on the market, regardless of which is "better." PR may have a good product, but if the recent events between ATI/PR and LO make customers look elsewhere, PR won't be around for very much longer... Some people still have principles, and are willing to live by them. Whether that makes or breaks PR or not, only time will tell. But this uproar certainly isn't helping them in any way, at least not here at SH.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

It appears to me the score is now Liberty Optics 10,500+ like and ATI/PH 10,500+ hate.

We buy from Scott (what ever brand) because of his attitude toward customers and their needs. He has always been able to impart knowledge and expertise toward my optics buying decisions. Once the money is in his account he did not forget who I was. Product always ships quickly and he will always follow up on the transaction and answer any questions you have after the purchase.
ATI/PH, you say you did all this to protect your customers (dealers who sell PH scopes) and that is noble. But this whole thing doesn't wash. You may have your dealers sign MAP agreements but cannot force them to sell at that price. I've seen this before in the industry. One or two dealers bitch loud enough and you guys freak out and take actions against the dealer they are bitching about. Guess what? You just took out their competition for them.
Bottom line:
Give dealers MAP, let them sell for what the market will bear, and may the best seller win.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Wow. I don't have any desire to buy a Premier in the first place, but what a lame thing to do. If you have a MAP then enforce it, but don't have a MAP and pretend that it's a minimum selling price and then get into a fight with one of the most respected dealers here.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Andrew, I think what you fail to realize; there is nothing your company provides that any of us can't live without. You took actions where a simple phone call would have probably sufficed and now you see that your actions have consequences. I don't blame Liberty for letting us know how this was handeled and how you treated them. I do find your post somewhat whinny. For a distibuter to come on a public forum crying about a retailer? This is a first.

I hope you have learned something and I hope the interest rate on millions of dollars of scopes isn't too high. I wish nothing good for your cheese eating rat though.

 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Wow....I think it says a lot that The Hide got the attentions of both Presidents of these 2 companies in such a short time.

I <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">guarrandamnteeyou</span> </span>that if every Dealer of PH scopes simply told them that they will honor the MAP contracts, <span style="font-weight: bold">BUT </span>they reserve the Right to sell the product at a price of their choosing....or they won't carry their scopes....

Things would change. It's hard to make money when no Dealer will carry your product......I'm just saying....
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears to me the score is now Liberty Optics 10,500+ like and ATI/PH 10,500+ hate.

We buy from Scott (what ever brand) because of his attitude toward customers and their needs. He has always been able to impart knowledge and expertise toward my optics buying decisions. Once the money is in his account he did not forget who I was. Product always ships quickly and he will always follow up on the transaction and answer any questions you have after the purchase.
ATI/PH, you say you did all this to protect your customers (dealers who sell PH scopes) and that is noble. But this whole thing doesn't wash. You may have your dealers sign MAP agreements but cannot force them to sell at that price. I've seen this before in the industry. One or two dealers bitch loud enough and you guys freak out and take actions against the dealer they are bitching about. Guess what? You just took out their competition for them.
Bottom line:
Give dealers MAP, let them sell for what the market will bear, and may the best seller win.
</div></div>

Well said!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is unethical to turn a ‘blind eye’ on a practice that hurts the majority, even if that practice brings in extra sales for a few or the one.</div></div>

nice reference Mr Spock
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Didnt the ass-clown that pulled the sting-buy tell Scott he worked for ATI? He even lied about being a member on SH. Lying and deception make me NOT want to deal with a company. Just sayin...

Which is it?

ATI just said he doesnt work for them. Someone aint tellin the truth.

ATI hasnt done crap for me. Scott helped me into a nice Acog. Guess which side Im choosing?

Hey if it means I put food on the table after I buy a scope then Im all for saving 50 bucks when I can.

And MAP isnt the same as MSP even with an EXPIRED contract.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

If I have a problem with Scott Berish, I pick up the phone and talk to him. A sting operation is inexcuseable.

In my view, ATI has screwed over Liberty Optics, Scott Berish, Sniper's Hide members, and Premier Heritage. Why Premier Heritage you ask?

Because I have a strong sense that even with Premier's new scopes or anything else made by Premier, will be ignored by many of us on the Hide.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

It sounds to me like what you are doing is illegally fixing the price of a product. What the retailer sells out for has no impact on the wholesale price that you get paid by the dealer. All you are trying to do is keep the price high to maintain a premium brand image. Artificially inflating pricing is illegal and you should be landed with a serious lawsuit.


 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Andrew,

Thanks for your response finally but really, give us all a break. The way this went down just sucks. Maybe that is how business is conducted north of the border, but it doesn't fly down here. You and your company should have been more than pleased with the amount of PR scopes entering the marketplace. Almost to a man, none of my shooting friends ever heard of PR until I showed them mine and went over the features. Most of us have PR because of Scott/LO. I cannot believe that you, as a person engaged in business at a fairly high corporate level, don't see the massive problems in the US and global economies. Do you really think trying to force a dealer to sell a scope for $75 more which only comes out of his pocket somehow helps your overall business? You guys developed your "MAP strategy" which is really price fixing in reality, and do not have the sense to say maybe we screwed up. I would respect you all so much more if there was even the slightest yielding on your part, yet there is none. People tend to pull for the underdog, especially when the underdog has been wronged in fact or in perception. Bottom line, your administration of your policy sucks, and if increasing market share was your goal, you failed miserably.

 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

With respect to the OP- If it is impossible to stay in business at the price point that Liberty Optics was selling scopes at, how was Liberty Optics staying in business?

Frankly, your handling of this issue smells of greedy dealers whining that someone is willing to sell optics at their true market value.

Nature abhors a vacum and your pricing policy is obviously creating an artificially high price that does not reflect the actual value of the items being sold as was provn by Liberty Optics.

If this persists, another company will fill your market share at actual market value...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

And one other thing. ATI is a CANADIAN company. While Premier may have a US address, their middleman is in Nova Scotia.

ATI hasn't "grown into an International Distributor", they ARE an International Distributor. Keep in mind the audience you're playing to. We don't speak French.

I try to support US manufacturers, but Premier using an offshore attack dog to go after an American dealer is just not what I picture from an American company.

Makes me proud to own a USO!