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Gunsmithing Barnard Palma II

LRI

Lance Criminal
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Mar 14, 2010
    6,314
    7,436
    52
    Sturgis, S. Dakota
    www.longriflesinc.com
    Mr. Parker out in sunny CA sent this to me the other day.

    Pretty nice stick on this one too. The blond wood is always pretty cool lookin I think.

    This isn't a "full monty" build like the last one was. A barrel job, bedding, and some trigger guard creativity is what we've got in store for this girl.

    6.5x47LM is the cartridge this time.

    DSC_0008.jpg


    So, lets get on with it. We'll start with fitting the new barrel. I've got a batch of guns to bed next week so this'll fit right in.

    C

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    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Chad,

    It is always fun to view your post and see pictures and verbage of the work being completed. Thanks for all of you enjoyable post!
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad. </div></div>

    Im quite sure this is just the beginning of one of his build threads, not an aim whatsoever to make someone look bad, as I dont even see where he would be doing that so far in what he posted.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad.</div></div>
    Uh oh..... I smell conflict arising.....
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Keep in mind gents that while I do appreciate the encouragement and kind words offered by the majority, my primary purpose with a build thread is to ensure my clients never go to bed wondering if their rifle is being worked on. They know the status as does everyone else. That means before, during, and after.

    I've been told by people like Glen Harris that its the single biggest thing a smith can/could do to improve business. He's right. He also said I should tag on an extra 10% to the bottom line for the extra effort. I don't. My rates are competitive with any marquee smith.

    This is a build thread. The initial series of photos details the starting batch of parts. Never made any sort of derogitory comment near as I can tell.

    That being said I don't take offense to Mikki's remarks. In an off color way its a compliment as it sort of implies I can do better.

    I hope I don't disappoint anyone.

    Off to bed.

    C.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad.</div></div>

    Um...Shut Up
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Chad

    Looking at the pics I am curious about something:

    I never felt it was optimum to just use a screw with its screw head for the recoil lug, and that Barnard Palma action and stock appears to have that set up. Maybe a screw head recoil lug just always seemed like a "jury rig" recoil lug set up to me (but then again maybe it's not fair for me to even suggest that, as that may certainly be a matter of opinion). Is a more substantial recoil lug set up going to be made for that? If so, I would like to see what you are going to craft with it.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    It looks like the flat in front of the screw would act as the recoil lug too, not just the screw head.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad. </div></div>

    How is he making someone else look bad? All he did was show a gun with parts and explained what he was going to do to it. Chad's work is exemplary and those that shoot guns that he has worked on keep coming back.

    Yes, he will make some out there look really bad, but that would be because of the evident quality of work he puts out.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Was that action bedded into the Barnard v-block (i.e., I don't see a recoil lug). Given a choice between the two, will you choose to bed using the v-block or install a remington style recoil lug?

    I have a Barnard Model P (really love that action) that I chose to bed using a remington style recoil lug. I know of at least two Barnard shooters (one well known) who use the v-block and swear by it- you gotta love being able to switch barreled actions at the drop of a hat too.

    Anyhow, curious to see where you go with the bedding on this.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    I will make a rem style lug for this, same as the last Barnard palma I worked on. The lug system in this rifle isn't what I'd go with, but it does appear to work well enough. The owner didn't have any accuracy complaints.

    We'll see what we come up with.

    C.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaychris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was that action bedded into the Barnard v-block (i.e., I don't see a recoil lug). Given a choice between the two, will you choose to bed using the v-block or install a recoil lug?

    I have a Barnard Model P (really love that action) that I chose to bed using a recoil lug. I know of at least two Barnard shooters (one well known) who use the v-block and swear by it- you gotta love being able to switch barreled actions at the drop of a hat too.

    Anyhow, curious to see where you go with the bedding on this. </div></div>

    I do not understand your post - you need a recoil lug no matter whether you use a v-block or conventional bedding - either way you need something to absorb the recoil. The "lug" on the action in the pictures above is that little screw head you see sticking up on the bottom of the action that fits into the little round hole in the bedding in the stock. Warner Tool also does a permanent recoil lug that is affixed to the bottom of the action and that's a first class set up.



    Robert
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad. </div></div>

    Does Chad's work make yours look bad. Are we feeling a little down and have to attack to make ourselves feel better?
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Anyone care to share their opinion on the various Barnard recoil lug options? I'm considering one of these and I'm intrigued by the v-block option, but I've no actual experience with them. Yay or nay, and why?



     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Sorry, I should have clarified- I meant "remington style recoil lug"... if that is the right terminology.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rcw3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaychris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was that action bedded into the Barnard v-block (i.e., I don't see a recoil lug). Given a choice between the two, will you choose to bed using the v-block or install a recoil lug?

    I have a Barnard Model P (really love that action) that I chose to bed using a recoil lug. I know of at least two Barnard shooters (one well known) who use the v-block and swear by it- you gotta love being able to switch barreled actions at the drop of a hat too.

    Anyhow, curious to see where you go with the bedding on this. </div></div>

    I do not understand your post - you need a recoil lug no matter whether you use a v-block or conventional bedding - either way you need something to absorb the recoil. The "lug" on the action in the pictures above is that little screw head you see sticking up on the bottom of the action that fits into the little round hole in the bedding in the stock. Warner Tool also does a permanent recoil lug that is affixed to the bottom of the action and that's a first class set up.



    Robert </div></div>
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    the Barnard is machined with a relief on the base of the action (as evident by the cut out) which is intended to house a recoil stop that is bedded into the stock. I'm of the opinion that a remington style recoil lug is a better option, although i've seen no accuracy degradation using the intended setup or a v-block.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone care to share their opinion on the various Barnard recoil lug options? I'm considering one of these and I'm intrigued by the v-block option, but I've no actual experience with them. Yay or nay, and why?
    </div></div>

    Here's my permanent recoil lug (Al Warner at Warner Tool did it) along with the stock bedding. It's excellent in all respects!
    RecoilLugonBarnard.jpg

    BeddingofStock.jpg
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    What I like about the permanent recoil lug is that it makes it easy for the rifle to be a switch barrel rifle (no Rem style recoil lug sandwiched in the middle of things).

    A Barnard P action has a lot going for it, I think they are one of the best single shot actions on the market.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    With a pinned lug switching a barrel is as easy as the Warner lug.

    I'll explain quite candidly why I've gone the route of the Remington style recoil lug.

    Once upon a time a very, very close friend of mine paid a very, very, very, very well known palma gun plumber a pile of money to build him a palma rifle on a CG Millenium action. This well known plumber made a lug block that attached to the bottom of the action. It was held to the stock with a single 6mm x 1mm pitch screw. 3 revolutions of thread contact were all that kept the lug onto the action.

    The machine work was exceptional. The lug appeared to literally grow out of the action. Regardless there was .118" of thread engagement holding the part of the rifle that transmits all the recoil a 308 palma load can generate. (which is quite small, but still significant)

    The rifle would absolutely hammer the piss out of the X ring. . . for about 5 rounds. Then it would string from one end of the 9 ring to the other.

    Lightening. Never strikes twice in the same spot.

    A bad place to be as a rookie on the 2003 US Palma team.

    Needless to say back then I didn't have either the experience, nor the gall to question one of the sacred cows of longrange competitive shooting. I did everything I could to make it shoot. I laid the stock in carbon and bedded it four different times. Still no success.

    This has proven to date to be the single biggest failure in my career. David (Karcher) ended up taking his Tubb rifle to worlds that year.

    As a result I am quite jaded/prejudice against bedding blocks, V blocks, chassis, and elastomer shock absorbing tricks of the week when it comes to precision firearms. I pillar bed and unless the action is faceted on the bottom with sufficient surface area to tolerate/transmit recoil to the shooter's shoulder I'm sticking a double pinned Rem 700 style recoil lug between the receiver and barrel.

    Quite often I find a person requesting something because its different or they saw a buddy with it and he shot well that day. I certainly don't profess to know everything. I do however have a pretty good grasp these days on what works.

    The first Barnard I ever built is pictured below. John has shot some remarkable scores with this rifle. He only was able to enter a few matches last fall before the season was over for him. (winter comes quick north of Detroit) He's enjoyed a couple cleans with 60%+ X counts using irons during 600yard matches and has routinely shot High Master scores with the gun while still fire forming his brass. (it's chambered in 6mm Competition Match)

    Between his rifle and Kyle Leibertrau's World Champion Nesika Model K that I built back in 2004/05, both of which use a Rem style pinned lug, it pretty much tells me there is nothing wrong with a glorified washer stuck between the barrel and receiver.

    My pillar bedding is along the same lines as Alan's, but it has subtle differences.


    DSC_0021.jpg


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    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Am I seeing things Chad, or is your bedding compound slightly transparent?

    I always think I do a decent job bedding until I see another one of your darn pictures!
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Nice. Quick question. What are the holes in the barrel channel for?
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Super conductor magnetic anti vibration flux capacitor devices. . .

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    I HATE, DESPISE, LOATH accessory rails with the screw heads exposed on the bottom of the gun. It don't matter how well they are countersunk. At some point the hand stop is going to snag on a screw head/hole when adjusting.

    So I eliminate the problem by attaching it to the stock from the other direction. The SS sleeves are just a bushing to keep the screw head from eating the wood over time.

    DSC_0016.jpg


    DSC_00094.jpg
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I seeing things Chad, or is your bedding compound slightly transparent?

    I always think I do a decent job bedding until I see another one of your darn pictures! </div></div>

    Not transparent at all. I think what happened here is I had two piles of bedding on the mixing table when I did this gun. I picked from one pile that was a touch darker when I put the goop on the pillars/action.

    It resulted in this bizarre marble finish. Irked me all to hell but the job came out so good I didn't have the heart to tear it all back out. Not with the wood being so expensive anyway. Just too much risk. The owner didn't care so we left it.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    I didnt think so, just that top picture you posted it looks like you can see the shadow of the action screw hole through the bedding, obviously just the lighting though.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Chad

    The pop off cheek piece hardware on that walnut stock is great too, allows the shooter to pop off the cheek piece to remove the bolt or clean the rifle with no hassle. Premium stuff for sure.

    Robert
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Super conductor magnetic anti vibration flux capacitor devices. . .

    smile.gif

    </div></div>

    Hey - I was starting to buy that!

    Beautimus work!
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It was held to the stock with a single 6mm x 1mm pitch screw. 3 revolutions of thread contact were all that kept the lug onto the action.</div></div>

    Well there's you're problem. Screw threads aren't going to make for a good bearing surface at all. Shear bosses like recoil lugs just don't do their job unless the clearance is in the neighborhood of 0.001". Do the Barnard screw-lugs fit that tightly in the v block hole?

    I'm also reminded of Harold Vaughn's book where he describes the imbalance of holes in the action between the bolt lugs and the (Remington-style) recoil lug causing more vibration. Seeing as the loading port reaches forward of the screw-style lug, I would imagine the same phenomenon would be present here (unless you went with a dual port). So choosing the Remington-style may be the way to go just because it's forward of the bolt lugs.

    For those who haven't read his book, he essentially argues that the majority of the bending of the action takes place in the area between the recoil lug and the bolt lugs. Any asymmetry in the action in this area will cause unbalanced vibrations. He then goes through and measures the phenomenon with both balanced and unbalanced actions (before & after).

    I know, I'm getting into the weeds of academia here. It's a problem I have.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: damoncali</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It was held to the stock with a single 6mm x 1mm pitch screw. 3 revolutions of thread contact were all that kept the lug onto the action.</div></div>

    Well there's you're problem. Screw threads aren't going to make for a good bearing surface at all. Shear bosses like recoil lugs just don't do their job unless the clearance is in the neighborhood of 0.001". Do the Barnard screw-lugs fit that tightly in the v block hole?

    I'm also reminded of Harold Vaughn's book where he describes the imbalance of holes in the action between the bolt lugs and the (Remington-style) recoil lug causing more vibration. Seeing as the loading port reaches forward of the screw-style lug, I would imagine the same phenomenon would be present here (unless you went with a dual port). So choosing the Remington-style may be the way to go just because it's forward of the bolt lugs.

    For those who haven't read his book, he essentially argues that the majority of the bending of the action takes place in the area between the recoil lug and the bolt lugs. Any asymmetry in the action in this area will cause unbalanced vibrations. He then goes through and measures the phenomenon with both balanced and unbalanced actions (before & after).

    I know, I'm getting into the weeds of academia here. It's a problem I have.
    </div></div>


    Hindsight is always blessed with perfect vision.

     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    But don't you think that a properly designed lug would do better? (One that was securly mounted and had close tolerances on the bearing surfaces.) Or do you think there is something else inherently bad about that style of recoil lug (even if attached well)?
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    I haven't seen a conclusive result from anyone anywhere that says one is better than the other.

    I think so long as the lug has sufficient surface area to transmit the force to the stock without deforming (a) the lug or (b) the stock then it doesn't matter.

    If it were me, I'd put the lug at the tang on the action. Transmit the recoil through the receiver and to the stock behind the inlet in the stock for the trigger. This way it goes right to the grip and out the back to your shoulder.

    Put your hands together in prayer once. Now spread your palms while keeping the meat of your hand and your fingertips touching one another.

    Thats exactly what your stock does everytime you pull the trigger. It's even worse with a repeater because of the magazine well. (why you think big boomer dangerous game guns are cross pinned?)

    Getting behind all those stock features straight to the grip eliminates this. Just better be sure your stock is sufficient to tolerate it over the long haul.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    First off very nice wrok. Thank you for sharring it.

    I have a Barnard that was bedded by Warner. He adds a steel block to it. It has worked well for a couple of years. Cost is not cheap and it adds alot of weight but man that rifle shoots great.

    Nice to see others works with same action. I really like the action
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And your point here Chad ? Poor workmanship ? Not being critical but is this your point, to make someone else look bad. </div></div>
    Sorry Chad, this wasnt meant to cause any offence and going by your posts no offence was taken. I was totally full of alcohol when I made this post and dont really know what I was thinking when I made it.
    If anyone looks back they'll see that Ive always been a big fan of Chad and his brilliance and theres no doubt he makes the rest of us look like amateurs. Just when I think Im getting there Chad comes in and blows me away every time. Incredible Smith is our Chad.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Updates,

    This bugger is barreled and cookin in the beddin mix as we speak.

    I'll pop her out in the AM and get some more pics.

    Here's some closeups of the chambering. I love this new lens!

    EDIT: I goofed. This a Remmy being chambered in 264 WinMag, not a Barnard! Oh well. They look cool and it illustrates the point so I'll leave em up.
    smile.gif


    DSC_0005.jpg


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    DSC_0003.jpg


    Setup

    DSC_0009-1.jpg


    More to come. Getting closer Scott!

    C.
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Bedding. She's an ugly duck right now. Hopefully the diamond in the ruff presents itself in the AM. Everything went really, really well with this one so I'm feeling lucky!
    smile.gif


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    DSC_0014.jpg


    DSC_0013.jpg


    DSC_0012.jpg
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Here's the final product.

    Bedding came out perty nice. This was a "remix" job as it had been done before by someone else. I give it a 9.1/10 as these are always a bit more challenging than when I start from scratch on a virgin stock. I always mix a touch of black dye with my resin as I like the darker color better. In the past I don't remember it being "cranky" when mixing. It always seemed to blend well. Lately it's been acting funky though. The rings around the pillars are due to this. I always save a little puddle of the stuff to apply to the pillar head prior to sticking it on the receiver. As the pics show there's a vague "halo" around each pillar.

    Not a show stopper and it won't hurt performance, but it still irks me.

    Still, not to chabby.
    smile.gif


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    DSC_0013-1.jpg


    DSC_0012-1.jpg
     
    Re: Barnard Palma II

    Maybe the bedding compound is acting funky because you altered the ratio of awesomeness in the mix when you moved to the new shop.
    wink.gif
    Rifle looks great.

    Josh