Try and measure how much torque it takes to thread that barrel out with the set screw still tight. I bet you max out your torque wrench.
Barrel Torque Ludicrocity
- Thread starter Ronin22
- Start date
I was told 100 by a very reputable guy at a well known shop just a couple weeks ago
Ya I saw other CDG wrenches that say something different.. So it leads me to believe that there is a wide range of actual torques that will work. 75 def works. I did have a rifle that was torqued to 30 pounds (accidentally) and it DID come loose after around 100 rounds. My POI dropped a full mil at 100 yards when I was doing some load testing and checked everything BUT the barrel... action screws, scope mount screws... thought my rounds were doing something strange so stopped shooting. I went home and cleaned the rifle, the barrel came loose when I was screwing back on the muzzle device! I was like well... that will do it. Torqued it to 75 and went back to the range, POI went back to where I expected it and it's been gtg ever since. I do NOT know how it was torqued to 30 pounds other than using the wrong torque wrench (I have one set to 30 pounds for another application and I believe my wife grabbed that one and I guess to her 30 pounds feels like a lot LOL). Learned to double check some of my wife's work, but I doubt she will make that same mistake. Makes me want to do a test on 40 pounds, 50 pounds, and 60 pounds to see what happens when running those guns (mark the barrel to the receiver and count the rounds to see when it takes to get the barrel to come loose). Could be interesting, but I am def lucky nothing catastrophic happened.
100 will def work. It will NOT come loose for sure lol.
Ya set screws will hold tight for sure. This is one reason Im looking at Terminus QC... seems easy and would help with not having ANOTHER action wrench laying around...
More critical for what?
I can promise I’ve seen FAR more issues from improper scope hardware and stock screw torque than barrel torque.
But the threads/shoulder of the fastener are still not loaded in tension, or at least not “proper” tension for the “fastener” size.
But why?
I get your point, don't get me wrong. I'm just stating that one doesn't have to crank a barrel into the receiver with simian-like strength and intellect in order to retain zero or prevent a cold bore shift.
That’s a completely different type of connection, and not one I would waste time with.
More than hand tight is definitely a requirement. AI achieves is differently, and very intelligently actually, but it’s still a more, which is better.
I dont know about this line of reasoning...We see hand tight barrels work fine, but no way in hell would I go hand tight on my scope base or rings. As long as the headspace is correct, you dont even need all of the threads on most tenons to be able to handle standard pressures. Consistency is the main reason for the torque discussion.
I am still in the camp of people should do their own testing, or crank the fucker down if you don't want to test and never think about it. One of my rifles gets a snug of a wrench, one isn't coming off without access to a vice.
1. I haven't had issues.
2. If you have issues, tighten it down with your mk1 hand?
Are you still standing by its the most critical fastener for the rifle's main task of putting a hole in a target? You should do some actual testing instead of this theoretical game.
I've been transparent that for consistency, I still use a small wrench to apply torque (~30lbs). If you can provide testing that shows 100+ ft/lbs is required for optimal performance, then lets see it. My testing gives me confidence in my tiny wrench on dot drills and surviving tractor rides. My AI is torqued down even more.
Ah, moving the goal posts... Why can't people just man up and accept when they said something dumb. lol Its not hard.
If you get something like this, it will increase the amount of torque applied. Snap on make them as well.
3/8" Drive Box End Torque Adapter - 13/16" - 12-PT.
Chrome finish for corrosion resistance and easy clean up
www.mactools.com
This should be a link with a PDF to calculate the additional torque.
My action wrench is only rated to 150ft/lbs.If you get something like this, it will increase the amount of torque applied. Snap on make them as well.
3/8" Drive Box End Torque Adapter - 13/16" - 12-PT.
Chrome finish for corrosion resistance and easy clean up
This should be a link with a PDF to calculate the additional torque.
But it’s not loaded in tension. I thought that’s what you wanted, no?
Thing is, a barrel torqued to 8% of the recommended tension for a compatible fastener size is not going to have any issues that one torqued to 15% wouldn’t have.
It will be held in tension once the clamp load is applied, because it’s a 60° thread.
We talking something like an AWMC? If so, that thread is not loaded in tension. There would be a point load in compression on the side of the tenon.
I guess we need to define “work”.
Does it attach a barrel to a receiver? Yes. Does it offer much beyond that besides holes in the side of the action where the integrity is needed most? Not in according to FEA.
I've posted my explanation for 75-100 before but here it is again:
I tested snapping them on hand tight up through "way too much".
I could not get any zero shift or impact shift from day to day or when I whacked the barrel off something above 50 ftlbs with a 308 case head and 65 on a Win Mag. However, since lots of people don't have a torque wrench and "good enough" is a wild range depending on the person (farmers like shit TIIIIIIGHT) then our spec that I've published for years has been 75 for 223/308 and 100 for mags. This gives a specific value for folks and the consistency isn't an issue.
Ted says 100 because he asked me and I told him what my data was... so he used it.
Aaron from Zermatt asked me what I recommended when they were making up the insert cards that come with all their receivers and I told them too. So they used it.
Back in 2009 or so it was relative commonplace on this forum for someone to talk about having issues with groups and wandering zero or fliers in a freshly assembled Rem 700 build. One of the first things that was brought up was "check that your front action screw isn't too long and touching the bolt. Check that the front scope rail screw isn't too long and touching the top of the barrel threads."
In 2017 or so the powers that be in the market decided another quick change system was needed and since the systems on the market that created preload into the joint were already patented the set screw setup was adopted. This was about the time that the WTO lug was flashing into popularity and the "I can change barrels at the range" idea was all the rage.
I tested snapping them on hand tight up through "way too much".
I could not get any zero shift or impact shift from day to day or when I whacked the barrel off something above 50 ftlbs with a 308 case head and 65 on a Win Mag. However, since lots of people don't have a torque wrench and "good enough" is a wild range depending on the person (farmers like shit TIIIIIIGHT) then our spec that I've published for years has been 75 for 223/308 and 100 for mags. This gives a specific value for folks and the consistency isn't an issue.
Ted says 100 because he asked me and I told him what my data was... so he used it.
Aaron from Zermatt asked me what I recommended when they were making up the insert cards that come with all their receivers and I told them too. So they used it.
The AI system isn't a point load. It uses a cutout in the tenon thread that the screw closes up the effective pitch diameter and drives preload into the joint by closing down the thread in the receiver to create a normal force on the ramp which in turn creates tensile load in the joint. Point loads on thread suck... which brings me to:
The Curtis system? No, it causes problems sometimes and we decline warranty of zero shift and groups when that system is used. Every single time that we've had an issue with a barrel and the set screws were installed it was fixed by removing those set screws and torquing the barrel in place. MPA ran into that years ago and quietly stopped recommending the use of the system even though their branded actions as the time from Curtis still had the features in the receiver.
Back in 2009 or so it was relative commonplace on this forum for someone to talk about having issues with groups and wandering zero or fliers in a freshly assembled Rem 700 build. One of the first things that was brought up was "check that your front action screw isn't too long and touching the bolt. Check that the front scope rail screw isn't too long and touching the top of the barrel threads."
In 2017 or so the powers that be in the market decided another quick change system was needed and since the systems on the market that created preload into the joint were already patented the set screw setup was adopted. This was about the time that the WTO lug was flashing into popularity and the "I can change barrels at the range" idea was all the rage.
If ludicrous amount of barrel torque is used on Tikka rifles, do Tikka rifles not experience cold bore/first round shift? I don't think they all across the board are impervious to shift due to the ludicrous high torque value. I think there are more factors at play as to whether a barrel experiences, or to what degree it experiences cold bore/first round POI shift.
Out of curiosity, do you happen to know which kind the new Seekins rifles use? I hope it's the AI system and not the Curtis.
Thanks for the explanation by the way, it was very good.
Maybe “point load” isn’t perfect, but with the apposing 60* threads, the mechanism being compressed into the side of the thread is pushing forward on the tenon as it is pulling it back. I do not feel the tenon in an AWMC is loaded in tension due to the locking mechanism.
Tikkas are known to be very accurate and consistent rifles. Some of the most accurate and consistent at their price point.
Since we've covered ludicrous torque, has anyone tried plaid torque?
Green areas never make contact. Only the orange areas do. What direction do you think the forces are then applied as the clamp is tightened?
Fun story.
I used to run about 30-35ft/lbs barrel torque, in the range where you could use your feet to hold the butt stock and a clamp on barrel vise to pop the barrel off without putting it into a fixture. Never had any issues with accuracy or otherwise.
One day I adjusted my muzzle brake with a crescent wrench, loosened and tightened it a couple times to get it lined up correctly. Then later that week I shot a one-day PRS club match. I won the club match, cleaning the last stage, tossed my rifle in the bag and drove home.
When I got home to clean the gun I looked and the muzzle brake was crooked. I thought... Well darn, I tightened that. How did it come loose? I reach to grab the muzzle brake and it turns out the brake was tight but the whole darn barrel was loose.
Now I run about 75 fl/lb.
I used to run about 30-35ft/lbs barrel torque, in the range where you could use your feet to hold the butt stock and a clamp on barrel vise to pop the barrel off without putting it into a fixture. Never had any issues with accuracy or otherwise.
One day I adjusted my muzzle brake with a crescent wrench, loosened and tightened it a couple times to get it lined up correctly. Then later that week I shot a one-day PRS club match. I won the club match, cleaning the last stage, tossed my rifle in the bag and drove home.
When I got home to clean the gun I looked and the muzzle brake was crooked. I thought... Well darn, I tightened that. How did it come loose? I reach to grab the muzzle brake and it turns out the brake was tight but the whole darn barrel was loose.
Now I run about 75 fl/lb.
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