Barrel Torque Ludicrocity

[Ronin22]

lol.
Really though. 100ftlbs for prefit barrel torque? Fuck, I know this isn’t necessary. AR15 armorer schools is min 35ftlbs unless old school barrel nut needs advanced to next cut out for gas tube clearance. Then it’s 35-65ftlbs range.

I run 55ftlbs on my bolt gun Savage style barrel nut torque. Easy on off with anti-seize. 300WM too.

Seems excessive in regards to thread distortion and will a 35ftlbs barrel ever shoot loose? No human can spin loose a 30ftlbs barrel.

 

[SupressYourself]

You think that's something, Tikka puts their barrels on with an impact wrench. I think their spec is about 8,000 yard-tons.

 

[Tokay444]

Tighter the better.

 

[Ronin22]

Tighter the better.

Are we talking about the same thing here because there’s something else that can’t be too tight typically…

 

[MarinePMI]

You think that's something, Tikka puts their barrels on with an impact wrench. I think their spec is about 8,000 yard-tons.

I've heard the newer ones are not as bad. But yeah, I had to cut my 1st Gen CTR's barrel (relief cut) to get it off. Fucker was torqued on there to some stupid level of ft/lbs.

 

[ohiofarmer]

@MikeRTacOps

 

[MikeRTacOps]

I've heard the newer ones are not as bad. But yeah, I had to cut my 1st Gen CTR's barrel (relief cut) to get it off. Fucker was torqued on there to some stupid level of ft/lbs.

Take the good with the bad my Ninja

Mike R

 

[Supersubes]

This is always interesting topic. 100 ft/lbs is nothing for a thread that size, and well below what some of the manufacturers use. Shit the lug nut for your car, on a dinky 3/8 or 7/16 stud, gets torqued to 80 or 90 ft/lbs. If you had a steel nut/bolt combo that was 1-1/16x16, the torque spec would be around 1100 ft lbs. Rumor has it that @MikeRTacOps does like 1050 ft/lbs, or was it 1099?

If the same thread were made of Nylon, the spec would be around 75 ft/lbs. I’m not recommending anybody try 1100 ft/lbs, but with a good barrel vice and a proper action wrench, 100 is not much.

 

[Tokay444]

Are we talking about the same thing here because there’s something else that can’t be too tight typically…

I’ve had a few of those that were way too tight, TBH.

 

[SRPowah]

I can't shoot well enough to tell the difference between hand tight and 100 ft lbs. I prefer ~30 for consistency based on my own limited testing.

After seeing the results of TacOps rifles which are supposedly torqued to a number I can't count to, I find it hard to argue against going to the moon with torque values if thats what people want to do.

 

[Tokay444]

Kelbly says 150 minimum. Ted at ARC says 100 minimum but the more the better.
Benchrest fudds say hand tight is enough, but they get a dozen sighters so first shot deviation is irrelevant.

 

[memilanuk]

Benchrest fudds say hand tight is enough, but they get a dozen sighters so first shot deviation is irrelevant.

Funny you should mention that. I remember years ago an article came out in the old Precision Shooting magazine, with this guy just happy as a clam with his new switch barrel rifle that he could change barrels with 'a snap of the wrist'. The ensuing debate on the benchrest.com forums was what the kids today would call "spicey".

Most of the 'better' shooters were of the opinion that they *hoped* their competition only used 25-30 ft-lbs aka 'hand tight'. 80-100+ seemed to be the order of the day. Then again, that was some time ago.

 

[Ronin22]

Kelbly says 150 minimum. Ted at ARC says 100 minimum but the more the better.
Benchrest fudds say hand tight is enough, but they get a dozen sighters so first shot deviation is irrelevant.

But then what are their group sizes after their sighters? Fucking small

 

[MarinePMI]

<chuckle> I just use my trusty German torque wrench, aka "Gutentite".

 

[Tokay444]

But then what are their group sizes after their sighters? Fucking small

But that isn’t what the higher torque is for.
If you don’t give a shit about first round impact, do what BF fudds do.

 

[Ronin22]

Muzzle devices are put on with 35ftlbs. They’re not shooting loose…

 

[Ronin22]

But that isn’t what the higher torque is for.
If you don’t give a shit about first round impact, do what BF fudds do.

1 mile 55ftlbs

 

[SRPowah]

I found a snap of the wrist to not quite be consistent enough. Small wrench solved the consistency problem but it still isn't a lot of torque. Would love to see a study that proves that 100+ is better than 30, but I don't think anyone in the world can shoot the difference it might make with all of the other variables we have to deal with.

FWIW, I settled on my lil wrench after running a 10 round dot drill where the barrel was removed between each shot..

 

[Tokay444]

Muzzle devices are put on with 35ftlbs. They’re not shooting loose…

None of it is for “shooting loose”. Suppressors shoot loose all the time.

 

[Ronin22]

None of it is for “shooting loose”. Suppressors shoot loose all the time.

What’s your position then?
Ted say 100
Kelbly say 150
Benchrest shooters abused you
And that’s it?

 

[Tokay444]

I torque to 150 and would go higher if my action wrench was rated for higher.

 

[Ronin22]

I torque to 150 and would go higher if my action wrench was rated for higher.

Why?

 

[Tokay444]

Why?

Because more is better for 1 shot consistency. That thread spec’d anywhere else would be torqued to over 1000ft/lbs.

 

[Baron23]

I have a CDG and Ted is a mech engineer with all the supporting models and data to back up his spec.

I listen to Ted and sleep well without worry.

 

[Ronin22]

I have a CDG and Ted is a mech engineer with all the supporting models and data to back up his spec.

I listen to Ted and sleep well without worry.

Tell machinists this and they’d horse laugh you out of the fucken galaxy.

 

[Baron23]

Tell machinists this and they’d horse laugh you out of the fucken galaxy.

I’m not buying actions from machinists so I don’t care if they laugh.

Your gun, do what you want. My gun…I’ll do what I want.

 

[Ronin22]

I’m not buying actions from machinists so I don’t care if they laugh.

Your gun, do what you want. My gun…I’ll do what I want.

They're the last ones to touch it, so really you are.
Secondly, Well yeah, that's a given, but the conversation is about what is the practical torque.

 

[Tokay444]

Tell machinists this and they’d horse laugh you out of the fucken galaxy.

I’m an aerospace machinist.

 

[45-90]

You have a jam nut on the AR 15 & AR 10, Savage, etc.

No such thing on the direct thread joint of barrel to the action, with no jam nut.
Big Difference!
This type of joint depends on high contact pressure and slightly stretched threads to hold the parts firmly together.
So 95 to 150 ft-lbs for this particular application will usually suffice...80 ft-lbs would be a minimum, that I probably wouldn't consider unless specified by the builder in a particular application which I have seen in some pre-fits, without jam nuts.

 

[Tokay444]

We also aren’t threading into aluminum with aluminum.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Because more is better for 1 shot consistency. That thread spec’d anywhere else would be torqued to over 1000ft/lbs.

I would agree with you if the nut or threaded insert was thicker than the average diameter of a rifle action. 1.250-1.350 isn't the same as a nut for a +1" diameter bolt.

I would question an action's ability to withstand that much torque without cracking.

I do understand the point you're trying make though.

 

[Tokay444]

I would agree with you if the nut or threaded insert was thicker than the average diameter of a rifle action. 1.250-1.350 isn't the same as a nut for a +1" diameter bolt.

I would question an action's ability to withstand that much torque without cracking.

I do understand the point you're trying make though.

In a 60° threaded action, which is what most of us have, yeah, 1000 might be way too much, but 30 is nowhere near enough.

 

[Mike Casselton]

After writing the above, my mind drifted back to the wing attach bolts on an F-16.
The 12pt nuts weren't all that big in diameter, and they were close to 2000lb/ft on the bolt side.

I'm just gonna say the action could possibly handle that big of a torque.

 

[Mike Casselton]

In a 60° threaded action, which is what most of us have, yeah, 1000 would be way too much, but 30 is nowhere near enough.

30 will hold it...
But I use around 100.

 

[NateVA]

This is a bit like the thread about bedding chassis to help prevent barrel impacts from causing zero-shift. It seems like the problem isn't even on many people's radars for some reason.

 

[Tokay444]

This is a bit like the thread about bedding chassis to help prevent barrel impacts from causing zero-shift. It seems like the problem isn't even on many people's radars for some reason.

Because their rifle travels from their safe to the back seat of their truck in a foam padded pelican case, and gets taken out on a flat square range.

 

[NateVA]

Because their rifle travels from their safe to the back seat of their truck in a foam padded pelican case, and gets taken out on a flat square range.

I confess I've been a bit anxious about my Tikka's prefit being put on at 75 ft/lbs. I didn't put it on and would have to spend a decent bit to get a vise/torque wrench/action wrench if I wanted to do it at 100 ft/lbs though. Is there a good way to test whether it's an issue? I remember Morgan Lamprecht and some other guys testing chassis issues by hitting their barrels with a rubber mallet to see if it would zero-shift due to improper stock/action contact.

 

[Tokay444]

Start with a rubber mallet.

 

[VikingSinEater]

I bang my guns around at the range a lot.. I do 75 ft-lbs because it's easy to take off and in my experience I've never had anything come loose…

 

[Chipster697]

I wish you guys started this conversation about 2 weeks ago… before I installed a PVA/Osprey barrel in my CDG action. I couldn’t find any torque specs from American Rifle Company and no one answered the phone there so I went with the 70 ft/lbs. I found on the PVA website.

I hadn’t thought about the difference in materials. If steel screwed into aluminum can be torqued up to 60-65 ft/lbs, then it makes sense steel into steel can be significantly more torque.

 

[supercorndogs]

Because more is better for 1 shot consistency. That thread spec’d anywhere else would be torqued to over 1000ft/lbs.

But the nut would be about 10x thicker than most actions.

 

[VikingSinEater]

I wish you guys started this conversation about 2 weeks ago… before I installed a PVA/Osprey barrel in my CDG action. I couldn’t find any torque specs from American Rifle Company and no one answered the phone there so I went with the 70 ft/lbs. I found on the PVA website.

I hadn’t thought about the difference in materials. If steel screwed into aluminum can be torqued up to 60-65 ft/lbs, then it makes sense steel into steel can be significantly more torque.

Ya, 70 should be plenty. The CDG wrench I got from MPA says not to exceed 100… but i just went with 75 and it's worked fine on my Ruckus and CDG actions. I guess more can't hurt, but I've shot thousands of rounds through barrels torqued to 75 and banged em around in courses of fire and never had an issue. Other might disagree, and 80 or 90 would work fine too I'm sure…

 

[Baron23]

Well yeah, that's a given, but the conversation is about what is the practical torque.

What’s your position then?
Ted say 100
Kelbly say 150
Benchrest shooters abused you
And that’s it?

Gee, it sure looked like you threw out Ted’s numbers then when I replied you tell me machinists would laugh at me for doing so. THEN, you try to school me on what the topic of the thread is. …really . You are the one who threw out that 100 ft/lbs is ludicrous.

You’re just being defensive and argumentative.

Slight variation on my prior statement….my gun and I’ll do what I like (which is follow the manf spec) and tbh I don’t care what you do w your gun.

Cheers

 

[Rubicon Precision]

Because more is better for 1 shot consistency. That thread spec’d anywhere else would be torqued to over 1000ft/lbs.

Because that thread spec’d anywhere else would be for maximum clamping force, not simply locating and hanging a cantilevered tube.

 

[diggler1833]

Meanwhile... AI guys who have been hand-tightening barrels for over a decade and torquing a screw down...

Can't say that I'm super sold on it, but my rifle hasn't let me down either.

 

[NateVA]

I asked TS Customs and they torque their prefits on at 100 ft/lbs for anyone else who was curious.

 

[JerkyFreak]

I guess the minimum required should be slightly more than whatever torque that the bullet imparts to the barrel when spun up.