Bedding + aluminum bedding blocks??

F

Fatelvis

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 15, 2003
308
4
Mokena, IL
#1
I have a fairly stock Rem 5R milspec in 308 that I'm trying to squeeze the last bit of accuracy from. I see on a few other threads people bedding recoil lugs or whathaveyou on their aluminum bedded stocks for better preformance. Is this worthwhile? Does anyone have REAL numbers (before and after) to confirm that this helps? I'm considering bedding, if it is true. Thanks guys -
 
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#3
You don't need numbers. This is not accounting

Extreme accuracy, consistent accuracy is about removing variables. To quote Terry Cross "Little things matter at distance".

That is a true statement. Will skim bedding help your rifle? 99.9% of the time the answer will be yes.

Respectfully

Joe
 
#4
I appreciate your input Jr. I guess what I'm asking is: would skim coating my aluminum bedding make a "noticeable" difference in accuracy? I know "noticeable" is subjective, but in your opinion, would it improve practical accuracy enough to warrant the work? I presently shoot this rifle at 600 informally, but would like to try using it in a practical rifle comp they hold locally.
 
#5
I think it depends on how the rifles are already shooting and if you see a big difference when the barrel heats up. I skimmed beddded the last two I had with blocks that were 1/2 moa rifles to start with and I dont think the bedding made any difference. If your rifle is a 1 moa or worse riflle its probable going to make a differecne. After shooting the rifle a little you can ussually take it out and see what kind of contact it is making with the bedding block. You can also look through the magazine inlet and see if its setting completely down on the block.
 
#6
Ive been shooting chasis for a while now i skimed bedd my 2.0 before i dont know it did make diff i realy didnt think so.aics has a lot of contact compare to my AX right now that i havent bedd yet at all but i like the way it shooting now so im not fixing unbroken things... or maybe im just lying to myself coz im still not sure if i want to keep AX stock and knowing much easier to sell it not bedded:)
 
#7
IMO it's a must. That being said you have to get someone to bed it properly. Bedding is a art so to speak.

If you plan on keeping the rifle and funds are limited then take steps.
Skim bed for now
True action at rebarrel time

A trued 700 with a Bartlein properly installed and a rifle that is bedded properly shoot shoot .25 MOA or less everyday of the week
 
#8
I have some stocks with the bedding block that are bedded and not bedded. THe ones that are not do shoot good but I have complete confidence in the ones that are, I can take them from stock and put them right where they are supposed to be. I have 2 Manners mini chassis, one bedded, one not. The bedded one is ALWAYS dead on, the non bedded one is great too but sometimes takes a shot or so to get perfect. But it is never far off. 1/2 MOA right usually then comes back to dead nuts. If you plan on keeping it in that stock and not changing I say bed it. If you do it right it will be helpful if you need it. Bedding is like insurance for me, If I don't ever take it out of the stock it might not be too necessary but if you ever need to and cant check zero I would be very confident where I would have doubt if it wasn't bedded. My Winchester Larado that is in the HS stock is only aluminum bedding block and has always done great taking out of stock. So I cant say that it is a must but I treat it as a must, especially if I want to have the upmost trust in the system.


Good Luck!
 
#10
I have a R700 that came in a HS stock with aluminum block. It was shooting .75-1moa on average and I took it to Robert Gradous for his accurizing package. He bedded it, among other things, and it was then averaging about .5-.75moa which is more in line with my abilities. I will say I never shot a .25moa group with it until he bedded it. Afterwards I've shot a couple with handloads!
 
#13
bward said:
As in removing stress from the system can never be considered a negative. If you pillar bedded a stock would you be happy with .185'' of stress? I know if it has more than .002'' I'm not happy with it.
Click to expand...


I am happy with rifles that shoot one hole groups consistently, regardless of how much so-called "stress" there is between the receiver and chassis. I am not convinced "stress" is the end-all, be-all of accuracy. I think consistency is. That receiver torqued into that vee-block chassis is going to take more than 250 lbs of force to break the friction between them, without even taking the recoil lug into account. Do you think the recoil force is anywhere near that? Do you think the receiver is in a different spot from shot to shot? Please explain to me what changes shot to shot that causes a different point of impact.

And no, I would not intentionally stress a component. But bedding a chassis totally defeats the purpose of them.
 
#15
300sniper said:
I am happy with rifles that shoot one hole groups consistently, regardless of how much so-called "stress" there is between the receiver and chassis. I am not convinced "stress" is the end-all, be-all of accuracy. I think consistency is. That receiver torqued into that vee-block chassis is going to take more than 250 lbs of force to break the friction between them, without even taking the recoil lug into account. Do you think the recoil force is anywhere near that? Do you think the receiver is in a different spot from shot to shot? Please explain to me what changes shot to shot that causes a different point of impact.

And no, I would not intentionally stress a component. But bedding a chassis totally defeats the purpose of them.
Click to expand...

I've also had rifles that I could put in a v-block chassis and would shoot well. However, if I'm going to put the effort into practicing, taking off time, and traveling to a match I'm going to eliminate any variable that could cause a zero shift, or any other for that matter, and undoubtedly a properly bedded stock or chassis is a more fool proof setup than a v-block that stresses the shit out of an action. At the end of the day you need to be confident in whatever you are shooting, and for me a v-block isn't it.
 
#16
bward said:
I've also had rifles that I could put in a v-block chassis and would shoot well. However, if I'm going to put the effort into practicing, taking off time, and traveling to a match I'm going to eliminate any variable that could cause a zero shift, or any other for that matter, and undoubtedly a properly bedded stock or chassis is a more fool proof setup than a v-block that stresses the shit out of an action. At the end of the day you need to be confident in whatever you are shooting, and for me a v-block isn't it.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That is why I have ZERO problem running a vee-block chassis.
 
#17
An interesting thing to look into is how many accuracy records have been set with chassis vs. bedding the action. I honestly don't know and would like to! My only experience is with the club matches (essentially benchrest - fixed yardage, wind flags, etc.) I go to and all the top scoring guys bedded their rifles.
 
#18
Early Cuyler said:
An interesting thing to look into is how many accuracy records have been set with chassis vs. bedding the action. I honestly don't know and would like to! My only experience is with the club matches (essentially benchrest - fixed yardage, wind flags, etc.) I go to and all the top scoring guys bedded their rifles.
Click to expand...

Much of current rifle building trends are based on tradition, not science.....

I have an idea I want to try one of these days when I have the funds to build a test rifle and time to do it. Sort of a blind taste test, if you will....
 
#19
300sniper said:
Much of current rifle building trends are based on tradition, not science.....

I have an idea I want to try one of these days when I have the funds to build a test rifle and time to do it. Sort of a blind taste test, if you will....
Click to expand...

True. I've seen and read lapping compound debates that just end up with what each person is comfortable with and prefers. Still though in the past 5-10 years chassis popularity has skyrocketed, and I would be interested in seeing if any records in the past 5 years have been set with a chassis.

The majority of builders, I believe, also prefer to bed or skim bed their full custom builds. I could be wrong and am open to any of them to chime in, but I trust in the gunsmiths I've spoken to to guide me from their experience. Not just their traditions.
 
#20
300sniper said:
Much of current rifle building trends are based on tradition, not science.....

I have an idea I want to try one of these days when I have the funds to build a test rifle and time to do it. Sort of a blind taste test, if you will....
Click to expand...


No science.... I respectfully disagree.

Newtons law of motion comes to mind.
 
#21
300sniper said:
Do you think the recoil force is anywhere near that?
Click to expand...

In his book Harold Vaughn calculated the total recoil force for a .270 with an ~53,000 psi load at 3000lbs. The 3000lb figure peaked for about .2-.3 milliseconds. So the recoil force between the action and stock would be ~3000lbs for a very short instant and most of that I think would be at the recoil lug/stock junction. If I recall correctly Vaughn didn't think epoxy bedding in a sporter type rifle offered anything over a traditional inlet in a wood stock. I also believe he stated he could not tell the difference. In his book he did not specifically test this.

I'm with you doubting if bedding actually offers much if any improvement. If the joint (action to stock) is fixed (relatively) and doesn't move (much) I'm not convinced some stress in the system is bad. I keep saying that someday I'm going to do that test. The problem is it takes a lot of time and a lot of shooting to get any meaningful data so I think that's why its so hard to not go ahead and bed the things to remove the potential/perceived error.
 
#23
300sniper said:
Now the question is: which has a greater friction force, a skim bedded chassis or an (anodized) aluminum vee-block chassis?
Click to expand...

Assuming the same force input and neither action moves, they have the same friction force...

But honestly for bedding and vee-blocks, I didn't think the friction force had anything with transferring recoil forces to the stock- it's the recoil lug.
 
#24
A wedge type action retention setup is limited when using an action that has a tang that narrows in the rear. -like an M700.

If you place the action in the stock and tighten only the rear guard screw one can anticipate the front of the action lifting off the stock to the tune of around one quarter of an inch. Yes. .250"

I see this every day on the AI stuff.

Does it mean they cant/dont shoot well? Certainly not. It does mean that the end user needs to be conscious of this so that he doesn't over tighten the rear screw and potentially damage his action.

A rifle that is bedded properly will not be suspect to this sort of thing. Because the casting is 1:1 to the receiver the risk of something distorting is minimal.

Theres other concerns though. Quality bedding work is only done by those experienced and willing to do a good job. Its easier to ruin a gun than it is to bed it exceptionally well. Bedding blocks and chassis are pretty benign for the most part.

Long and short is either can produce exceptional performance. Theres no right/wrong answer.

Bedding and/or a well fitted chassis will help a great gun behave exceptionally. It will never make a pigs ear into a silk purse.


Vaugn went through a whole lot of trouble to try and prove stuff. The problem with most of his research is that he didnt develop his answers over a broad gamut of experiments. He built a handful of rifles and tried some cooky stuff with them. It makes for interesting reading but theres flaws. Anyone vaguely familiar with the scientific principle knows you have conduct multiple experiments. That would get horribly expensive very quickly for Mr. VAughn. So he used what he could.

Noble. But it doesnt change the facts.

However you get there, improving the fit between a stock and an action can elevate the performance of a rifle.


C.
 
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