Belgian Rambo on the loose

RUTGERS95

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This is how I feel also. There's many, many, retired, fully-trained ex-mil. in this country. Some have training ( not I, I turned wrenches on a/c. Only carried a weapon twice in my career, beside my yearly Quals.) that a lot of these politicians can only dream about. Then, the amount of real-world experiences these people have had. Plus, they, like myself, have taken that Oath numerous times in their careers and fully believe in it. Politicians have mouthed the words to, but, haven't really taken those words to heart.
If shit does go south, these F's will be so buried underground, it will be pathetic.
I'm really hoping this does not turn into the shit-show that I'm fearing it will. Mac
I'd like to think people will stand up but I doubt it. Look at VA, marched and they still passed those laws. I truly believe we are at the point where it will have to come violence one way or the other because the courts are not upholding the rights of people for the whatever 'mood' flows in the nation which is exactly what the founders did not want.

Until people start actually fighting back, nothing changes
 

Anointed1

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    I'd like to think people will stand up but I doubt it. Look at VA, marched and they still passed those laws. I truly believe we are at the point where it will have to come violence one way or the other because the courts are not upholding the rights of people for the whatever 'mood' flows in the nation which is exactly what the founders did not want.

    Until people start actually fighting back, nothing changes
    Well Trump made a hell of an impact with the courts though....maybe that will pay enough dividends to turn the tide. Although it might be too little too late...the immediate future looks f*cking bleak =/
     
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    Sniperwannabee

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    @pmclaine Nothing to see here. All is well. Everyone is happy. I was just going for a stroll in the woods.

    To be fair, their politicians have been shitting on the Belgian people since March of last year. They are only now "easing" restrictions. There are indoor-style dining tents setup outdoors, masks in public places/on streets/everywhere but in the farmland, massive push for vaccine passports with a campaign aimed at bullying the citizens into getting the shot so they can be permitted to travel throughout the region, and the usual police-state love affair with cameras everywhere. Now that things are opening up, they are increasing their "pop-up" style speed cameras so they can get back some of the revenue they missed out on for the past year. Telework mandates are looking like they're still a thing so it will be interesting the shit show it will be once they require them to go back to the office. ...Which even before all of this, it was hard to ever reach someone on the phone or get an email reply....because every other fucking day is a god damn holiday....or closed for lunch break...

    On a side note... I am going hiking in the woods tomorrow. I'll let y'all know if I find anything good. lol
    leave him some supplies and a disguise
     

    Davo308

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    I view this guy in Belgium and the Jan 6th events as well as other events as a scream at those in power. Too many people ostracized or ignored for believing in what they believe is right and just. Agree or not with the methods, those that ignore these cries and continue partisan politics, socialist objectives, and the continued encroachment of our freedoms will have a reckoning.

    Ledbelly had a line... "shiver for me, now".
     

    Mr.BR

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    Today they are presenting some findings of investigations by miltary inteligence service .But at present main thing seems to be controlling the narative of a 'right wing extremist' and countering the mounting support by the plebs.

    Google translate

    Manhunt: Jürgen Conings in the sights of the intelligence services for 6 years, he planned to carry out an attack on a mosque

    The Belgian intelligence agency has launched an investigation into how the intelligence service, the military intelligence service ADIV and the Threat Coordination Panel (OCAD) collected and shared information in the Conings case.

    The hearing took place behind closed doors, but “several well-informed sources” confirm this Knack.be and Le Soir that the following timeline was discussed:
    The State Security Service of the Secret Service, which is legally responsible for overseeing extremism, first received information about Conings as part of the funding of an organization that is on the service’s radar.

    • 2017-2019: An official report on Conings is produced several times, including illegal knife possession and racism. But this information would not have reached the ADIV.

    • 2018: There is information that connects Conings with a right-wing extremist group.

    • June 2020: Conings is looking for the address of the virologist Marc Van Ranst.

    • August 2020: OCAD initiates a preliminary investigation into Conings as a “potentially violent extremist”. From that moment on, his name will also be entered in the common database (GGB), which various other government agencies have access to, and a task force will look into the case.

    • August 31, 2020: The ADIV decides to revoke the security clearance of Conings. Since Conings worked in the military police, he needed such a permit in order to gain access to certain safe locations.

    • November 12, 2020: The decision about the security check will be made and Conings will be informed after 2.5 months. “An unlikely mistake,” say multiple sources.

    • February 17, 2021: After the preliminary investigation initiated by OCAD, Conings was placed under the status of “full status” as a “potentially violent extremist” in the GGB. It is also assigned threat level 3 (“serious”). This information is automatically available in the GGB and therefore ends up in the ADIV in any case. “But the information did not reach ADIV CEO Philippe Boucké,” says a source. “The ADIV did not follow up the information at all,” replied another. According to the Belgian media, it seems strong that mistakes have been made within the ADIV.

    The regulator has to complete its investigation by early July. talent and Le Soir asked the State Security and ADIV for an answer, but the services do not comment.

    "People are fed up with it"
    Stéphane
    , an auditor from Soignies , in the province of Hainaut, spoke about this on our antenna: " I think that some support him because they are fed up with all the problems related to the management of the Covid. What scares me is that this man had access to weapons as a soldier: I think if we were in the United States and we had access to weapons, there would be a lot more Jürgen Conings in Belgium. Since he hasn't done anything wrong yet other than stealing guns, people support him thinking he's not going to do anything serious. But I hope those who support Conings do because they are unaware of what he really represents. "

    On the side of La Louvière , Hervé reacts: " I believe that he has become the standard bearer of some. He brings together the different opinions of the population such as the rejection of sanitary measures, the rejection of the mask or even immigration. one person, he brings together different extreme opinions. I find it really very sad for our society to position him as a hero. The people who support him have such a strong hatred towards government and society that they need someone to put them on. represents. Jürgen Conings becomes an icon. But I think those who support him do not realize what they are doing, we trivialize the risks of this kind of character. "


    The debate ends in Charleroi with Thierry : " This man is the reflection of what our politicians have brought for years in their behavior vis-à-vis the population: lies, cheating, etc. This was accentuated there is several months old and the politician, now, is no longer there to help people, he is there to help himself. "
    "I understand that we support him, because when we vote in Belgium, there are always arrangements between parties and some rise to power when they do not represent what people want. Our politicians get what they sow . They do not question themselves, they just say that this man is dangerous, but they put the blame on others and not on their own behavior. In my opinion, it is only because of our politicians that the population supports Jürgen Conings. "
     
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    sirhrmechanic

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    Today they are presenting some findings of investigations by miltary inteligence service .But at present main thing seems to be controlling the narative of a 'right wing extremist' and countering the mounting support by the plebs.

    Manhunt: Jürgen Conings in the sights of the intelligence services for 6 years, he planned to carry out an attack on a mosque

    Jürgen Conings, this soldier listed as a potentially violent extremist and wanted by the police with the support of the army for several days, appeared for the first time on the radars of an intelligence service in 2015. It was on those of the State Security, the civil intelligence service, we read Wednesday in the newspaper Le Soir and the magazine Knack.
    Belga
    The first revelations of internal investigations in this case took place Tuesday afternoon, behind closed doors, in the monitoring committee of Committee R, the control body of the intelligence services.
    According to The Last Hour, on February 1, the alarm bells on the military's intentions were sounded. Information according to which he intends to carry out an attack on a mosque is transmitted. On February 17, a new state security alert arrived. Jürgen Conings is this time placed level 3 out of 4.

    According to Le Soir and Knack, although the corporal was thus assessed as representing a "serious" threat from February 17 by OCAM, military intelligence did not follow up on this crucial information.

    After the first appearance in 2015, there was a new 'hit' by Jürgen Conings in intelligence databases in 2018, this time for participation in a far-right group.
    Between 2017 and 2019, the soldier will also be known to the police and justice services. Reports are drawn up against him, including at least one for "carrying a prohibited weapon" (a bladed weapon) and another for "threats". But the General Intelligence and Security Service (SGRS, military intelligence) will not receive this information. Not at the time, anyway. He only learned about it very recently.

    Still according to La Derniere Heure, Le Soir and Knack, the SGRS decided, on August 31, to withdraw from the military his security clearance, of "secret" level (the 2nd highest), which allows him to access sensitive buildings. But it will be necessary to wait almost two and a half months later - November 12 - for the withdrawal to be effective and notified to the person concerned.
    Rather than dismissing him, the Defense then decided to appoint Jurgen Conings as instructor, writes The Last Hour. Last December, a psychological report from the State Security indicated the dangerousness of Jürgen Conings.
    Finally, it appears that, among the thirty members of the Defense known for their radicalization, there are two MPs (military police) responsible for the control of two Belgian parliaments.

    "People are fed up with it"
    Stéphane
    , an auditor from Soignies , in the province of Hainaut, spoke about this on our antenna: " I think that some support him because they are fed up with all the problems related to the management of the Covid. What scares me is that this man had access to weapons as a soldier: I think if we were in the United States and we had access to weapons, there would be a lot more Jürgen Conings in Belgium. Since he hasn't done anything wrong yet other than stealing guns, people support him thinking he's not going to do anything serious. But I hope those who support Conings do because they are unaware of what he really represents. "

    On the side of La Louvière , Hervé reacts: " I believe that he has become the standard bearer of some. He brings together the different opinions of the population such as the rejection of sanitary measures, the rejection of the mask or even immigration. one person, he brings together different extreme opinions. I find it really very sad for our society to position him as a hero. The people who support him have such a strong hatred towards government and society that they need someone to put them on. represents. Jürgen Conings becomes an icon. But I think those who support him do not realize what they are doing, we trivialize the risks of this kind of character. "


    The debate ends in Charleroi with Thierry : " This man is the reflection of what our politicians have brought for years in their behavior vis-à-vis the population: lies, cheating, etc. This was accentuated there is several months old and the politician, now, is no longer there to help people, he is there to help himself. "
    "I understand that we support him, because when we vote in Belgium, there are always arrangements between parties and some rise to power when they do not represent what people want. Our politicians get what they sow . They do not question themselves, they just say that this man is dangerous, but they put the blame on others and not on their own behavior. In my opinion, it is only because of our politicians that the population supports Jürgen Conings. "
    Ever watch movie “The Running Man?”

    Ben Richards ‘bio was more believable than that!

    Sirhr
     

    silentwoods

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    Who said I got vaccinated ?

    Apparently you can't read either or comprehend plain english...I've been in isolation because of cancer genius...had nothing to do with covid or hiding from a virus...it had to do with 9 months of 4 different types of chemo...a stem cell transplant and on top of it all back surgery in hopes that one day I might be able to walk again. Take your covid perceptions and project them onto someone else. They've impacted my family as much as yours.

    You don't know anything about me so don't act like you do 😉
    Well, it's a fact you didn't say you got vaccinated.
    Nor did you specify your hibernation being due to cancer. I re read your post, to be sure, yup, I inferred, and I'm guilty.

    It's not difficult to reach those assumptions given the time or the literal thousands of posts about this virus bullshit.

    So in that regard, I apologize.

    As far as you playing the victim,

    Get over it.

    Good luck with your cancer, that is definitely something everyone can relate to as it literally touches everyone somehow.
     

    Mr.BR

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    I thought this thread was about Rambo
    :oops:
    763 (1).jpg
     

    silentwoods

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    I tend to think it's a symptom of a corrupt, diseased system.

    Pretty pathetic where things are heading, but everything has cycles, this is just ours. 👍
     

    Anointed1

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    I'm not sure what that is implying silentwoods...my brains are half fried because of treatment crap so it's probably obvious and I just don't get it /shrug. I'm also older now so...I'm not in tune with a lot of modern expressions.

    No need for an apology...people make mistakes. Tensions are high with most people with all the ridiculous nonsense going on in this world...easy to take something the wrong way and get triggered. No harm no foul. By the way...there's not too many "men" around anymore that even have the balls to apologize to anyone for any reason. That's not lost on me and garners a lot of respect 👍

    The only reason I posted anything in this thread to begin with was expressing compassion for this guys kids...it probably came across the wrong way as I stated...my brains are half fried =/.

    Thanks for the well wishes on the cancer...this sh*t sucks for sure...I wouldn't wish it on anyone !
     
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    308pirate

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    The debate ends in Charleroi with Thierry : " This man is the reflection of what our politicians have brought for years in their behavior vis-à-vis the population: lies, cheating, etc. This was accentuated there is several months old and the politician, now, is no longer there to help people, he is there to help himself. "
    "I understand that we support him, because when we vote in Belgium, there are always arrangements between parties and some rise to power when they do not represent what people want. Our politicians get what they sow . They do not question themselves, they just say that this man is dangerous, but they put the blame on others and not on their own behavior. In my opinion, it is only because of our politicians that the population supports Jürgen Conings. "

    Thierry nails it
     

    Fig

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    I wonder how many dangerous communists are on their lists? My guess is 0. These people appearently see no danger from the left and from totalitarianism. It is only when a man speaks of living in liberty, being left alone, and in defense of his own culture than they see danger (to themselves). It's only if someone speaks out against their arbitrary and capricious edicts, and dares to call bullshit on their appeals to authority under the auspices of "science", which is about as far from an authority as you can appeal!
     

    Mr.BR

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    I wonder how many dangerous communists are on their lists? My guess is 0. These people appearently see no danger from the left and from totalitarianism. It is only when a man speaks of living in liberty, being left alone, and in defense of his own culture than they see danger (to themselves). It's only if someone speaks out against their arbitrary and capricious edicts, and dares to call bullshit on their appeals to authority under the auspices of "science", which is about as far from an authority as you can appeal!

    Cant find it right now but OCAM lists something like:

    720 Jihadis
    64 Right wing
    21 Left wing

    But these days they are realy fast to label someone as an extremist,HPs and PVEs , you get basically for couple FB posts or attending a anti-lockdown demo. Out side the Jihadi segmet more than half are members of armed forces , and following Jurgen case, they limited firearms access to 11 or so of them and reassigned 2 that worked the parliament secuitry

    • Foreign Terrorist Fighters (FTFs): persons who have travelled to a conflict zone in order to join a terrorist group or have returned from a terrorist conflict zone, who have been prevented of leaving or who intended to leave.
    • Homegrown Terrorist Fighters (HTFs): persons who do not intend to travel to a terrorist organisation abroad. They choose to commit or support terrorist acts here.
    • Hate propagandists (HPs): persons who want to justify the use of violence for ideological purposes. With their influence, they aim to radicalise their environment and undermine the rule of law.
    • Potentially Violent Extremists (PVEs): persons with extremist sympathies who intend to convert these into actions through violence, but who have not yet taken concrete steps to do so.
    • Persons Convicted of Terrorism (PCTs): persons who are convicted of terrorism, interned or placed under specific protective measures for terrorism in Belgium or abroad
     

    silentwoods

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    I'm not sure what that is implying silentwoods...my brains are half fried because of treatment crap so it's probably obvious and I just don't get it /shrug. I'm also older now so...I'm not in tune with a lot of modern expressions.

    No need for an apology...people make mistakes. Tensions are high with most people with all the ridiculous nonsense going on in this world...easy to take something the wrong way and get triggered. No harm no foul. By the way...there's not too many "men" around anymore that even have the balls to apologize to anyone for any reason. That's not lost on me and garners a lot of respect 👍

    The only reason I posted anything in this thread to begin with was expressing compassion for this guys kids...it probably came across the wrong way as I stated...my brains are half fried =/.

    Thanks for the well wishes on the cancer...this sh*t sucks for sure...I wouldn't wish it on anyone !
    I, like everyone, has been up close to that evil shit man.
    We'll never meet or be friends buddies or anything else, but I do feel for you.

    Terrible even at best, I wish you a speedy and successful recovery. 👍
     
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    Mr.BR

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    No dissent allowed.

    Saint-Nicolas: a fan of Jürgen Conings indicted for negationism and threats to the virologist Marc Van Ranst

    The East Flanders public prosecutor's office announced on Wednesday that the Dendermonde investigating judge has placed a 50-year-old man in Saint-Nicolas under arrest for suspicion of denial and threats to virologist Marc Van Ranst.

    The prosecution announces that the man was arrested overnight from Tuesday to Wednesday. His motivations are not yet known, but his mental state is still under investigation. The examining magistrate appointed a psychiatrist to examine the man.
     

    Mr.BR

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    Some more character assassination.

    This is what Jürgen Conings' medals mean: awards for survival skills and shooting talent​

    Jürgen Conings' vest is decorated with decorations. But even though that looks impressive, there is no 'medal of honors' for great heroic deeds. This is what the medals on the chest of Jürgen Conings mean.

    Inge Bosschaerts 5/26/21, 10:27 PM

    He earned most of his medals from his foreign missions. He received a medal for each mission: eleven in total. Although there are actually only six 'mission medals' hanging on his chest. Three for his missions to Bosnia, Kosovo and Lebanon. And three more for his missions to Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan. He went there more than once, and with every additional mission to that country an extra star is placed on that medal. Yugoslavia and Iraq have two stars for Conings, four for Afghanistan.

    In addition, he also earned the so-called 'German rifleman cord' during one of those foreign missions, because he completed a target practice with weapons from the German army. During large foreign operations it is tradition to shoot each other's weapons, and whoever hits the bullseye receives such a ribbon as a reward.
    Yet Jürgen Conings is indeed a gifted shooter. The trained sniper was awarded several 'Markmanship Medals' during his career, in recognition of his sharpshooting skills.

    But the decoration that perhaps benefits him the most today is his survival medal, which is awarded to soldiers who excel at surviving in nature.
     

    Flyingbullseye

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    But the decoration that perhaps benefits him the most today is his survival medal, which is awarded to soldiers who excel at surviving in nature.

    Lol, ruling elites sweating it out, using their news mouthpieces to still save their own asses.
    "He's not that dangerous, everyone, lets get him."

    I still say he's on a beach somewhere.
     
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    OldSalty2

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    why dont they just use the super secret satellites? you know....the ones that "see" through walls and can count the hairs on a gnats balls?

    imo, they could catch him if they REALLY wanted to do so.

    which tells me hes probably more "useful" on the run....
     
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    OldSalty2

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    idk, either way...my thought process...with the context of using this to my advantage.

    hes more valuable on the run, where he can be made into the literal boogeyman. you release statement about how dangerous he is (and maybe he is), how he is a threat, demonize...

    you dont want to catch him during this time where the coverage is at max. this might allow him to get his story out, which would ofc be fucking terrible, for a variety of reasons. that is if hes taken alive. given his alleged letter...perhaps he has different plans for how this ends?

    you wait, until this "unfortunate" event loses interest and your goal of demonizing this "nationalist" (or whatever applicable label/acronym) of your pleasure, then you go in to get him, whatever end that might be. no martyr, no story. just "the end".
     
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    acudaowner

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    a real Rambo don't need no stinking gun just a knife and nature sticks and twigs make a bow he should be able to live in the woods indefinitely . guns are loud bullets hard to come by even harder on the run to replace , but sticks and stones are free and abundant . Fires can give you away eat it raw your ancestors did .
     
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    Davo308

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    So the virologist joined a Jergen support group to troll them.

    And the forrest manhunt for him has resumed yet again.

    The Belgian govt is freaking out that he is getting increasingly popular in Russia.

     
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    hlee

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    Have a French engineer we do work for occasionally. He claims when he was in the French military they trained with the Belgians. He claims the Belgian military is unionized. On the obstacle course the Belgians went around the high obstacles because "Not in thier contract".
    BS???
    The French guy was just butt-hurt because they had to do the O course in reverse...
     

    RGStory

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    Have a French engineer we do work for occasionally. He claims when he was in the French military they trained with the Belgians. He claims the Belgian military is unionized. On the obstacle course the Belgians went around the high obstacles because "Not in thier contract".
    BS???

    Wegies have a union also. Kept strict union hours as I recall.
    It wouldn't surprise me to find out other smaller countries did also.

    Quick search: ->https://www.acmp-cgpm.be/home-en/
     

    Mr.BR

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    Those dastardly Russians at it again ROFLo_O:ROFLMAO:

    According to Dutch internet expert Henk van Ess, there has been “remarkable” interest in the support group for Conings coming from Russia, which “we should be worried about,” he told Het Laatste Nieuws.

    “This is how the message is spread to thousands of people in Russia, among other countries,” said van Ess. “I think it also indicates that the Russians are keeping a close eye on what is happening in Belgium and that they are often in right-wing, authoritarian spheres, and are well connected to each other.





    Day 12 the manhunt to find the Jürgen Conings continues with German, Dutch and Luxembourg reinforcements! But where is Rambo?
    SP20210520_Rambo-1200-1024x948.jpg
     
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    M8541Reaper

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    ...wasn’t Rambo the good guy? Like an honorable dude just trying to survive as a free man but was being harassed and pushed by a corrupt entity that told lies to his group to get them to join him in the hunting of Rambo?
    Hmmmm....
     

    Mr.BR

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    Google translated headlines


    Man wearing a camo jacket gets reported, surveillance hellos in the air o_O

    Police helicopter deployed to Aywaille area after witness points out "man wearing military jacket"

    While Jürgen Conings still remains to be found after two weeks of intense research, mainly in Limburg, a federal police helicopter was deployed on Sunday evening over the municipalities of Theux and Aywaille, in the province of Liège. A witness indeed reported the presence of a "man wearing a military jacket" at the promenade of Ninglispo, reports the Avenir.

    Jürgen Conings still nowhere to be found: “There is no reason to panic”

    Interior Minister Annelies Verlinden said on Sunday that she had no indication of the possible death of far-right soldier Jürgen Conings, wanted for nearly two weeks by all the police in the kingdom."It is very important that we" do "everything to find him," said Minister CD&V, recalling that it was a "potentially dangerous fugitive" and that all the intelligence and police services were mobilized for this hunt.

    Jürgen Conings withdrew the maximum amount from his account


    BRUSSELS - The fugitive soldier Jürgen Conings (46) who disappeared two weeks ago with a stock of stolen army weapons, has withdrawn 3,000 euros from his account just before his departure, Het Nieuwsblad reports. That was the maximum amount he could withdraw at the time.
    Conings left the Leopoldsburg barracks on Monday evening, May 17, with four rocket launchers, a machine gun, a smaller pistol and plenty of ammunition. He has been missing since then. In the days leading up to his disappearance, he regularly made withdrawals from ATMs. Earlier, Belgian Justice Minister Vincent Van Quickenborne said there were indications that Conings had prepared his actions.
     

    John's Friend

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    That looks like a Bell 206 in the photo. Belgian Police apparently use MD Explorers?

     
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    RUTGERS95

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    Davo308

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    So this virologist on his supposed hit list decided it was a good idea to join his online support group and troll his supporters.

    Seems like a bold strategy.
     

    Mr.BR

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    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    The Belgian army officially begins discharge proceedings for Conings, citing unlawful absence from duty.

    The Belgian army has formally begun the proceedings for a permanent discharge for Jürgen Conings, the fugitive soldier who has been the target of a 15-day manhunt after allegedly stealing an arsenal of deadly weapons from a military barracks and vanishing, leaving behind an ominous note about “joining the resistance.”

    The reason for the discharge is unlawful absence from duty.
    Conings has been illegally absent since 19 May, according to HLN.

    Defence Minister Ludivin Dedonder (PS) confirmed this on Wednesday afternoon in a meeting of the Defence Committee.
    Conings was reported missing by his girlfriend on Monday evening 17 May after he didn’t return from work.

    He is considered officially illegally absent since Wednesday May 19, and will therefore no longer receive his salary, according to the Minister.
     
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    sirhrmechanic

    Command Sgt. Major
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    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    The Belgian army officially begins discharge proceedings for Conings, citing unlawful absence from duty.

    The Belgian army has formally begun the proceedings for a permanent discharge for Jürgen Conings, the fugitive soldier who has been the target of a 15-day manhunt after allegedly stealing an arsenal of deadly weapons from a military barracks and vanishing, leaving behind an ominous note about “joining the resistance.”

    The reason for the discharge is unlawful absence from duty.
    Conings has been illegally absent since 19 May, according to HLN.

    Defence Minister Ludivin Dedonder (PS) confirmed this on Wednesday afternoon in a meeting of the Defence Committee.
    Conings was reported missing by his girlfriend on Monday evening 17 May after he didn’t return from work.

    He is considered officially illegally absent since Wednesday May 19, and will therefore no longer receive his salary, according to the Minister.
    That’ll help.

    sirhr
     
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    wade2big

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous
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    Sep 16, 2017
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    Conings is probably in Africa, or South America, by now.
    That’s sure gonna make it tough for him to accomplish his mission. Maybe he wants to wait until things quiet down before coming back. Of course if this was the goal then he could have just disappeared and not announced his objectives which probably would have been much more effective. Who knows?
     
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    OldSalty2

    Just a salty liberal.
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    That’s sure gonna make it tough for him to accomplish his mission. Maybe he wants to wait until things quiet down before coming back. Of course if this was the goal then he could have just disappeared and not announced his objectives which probably would have been much more effective. Who knows?
    how do we know he announced "his objectives"? oh..., was it in the "news"?

    sad, cant believe any of it anymore.
     
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