Advanced Marksmanship Best technique for consistent .75 moa or less shooting from a tripod.
- Thread starter SLG
- Start date
Working on link, but tent rope friction. lock might be more appropriate than camloc.
Satellite reception sucking real bad right now, can't get pages up.
Go back up to MarkCO's pic post and his is pictured.
Got it. So something like this:
http://www.niteize.com/product/camjamxt-aluminum-cord-tightener.asp
http://www.niteize.com/product/camjamxt-aluminum-cord-tightener.asp
I ordered this one to try, based on the posts above.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005PU5XK2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005PU5XK2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
SLG - I like that a little better than the one I found.
Would it help to have a second one of these to use to hang a pack from the bottom of the tripod? I'm thinking with something like this you could put tension on the pod without supporting all of the weight, or having the pack hanging completely in the air swinging in the wind.
For that matter, maybe even run the cord to the rifle under the pack? It would keep the tension centered under the tripod. Using your foot as an anchor is going to slightly pull the tension to the rear. Just guessing here, haven't tried any of this yet. First I need a better tripod....
Would it help to have a second one of these to use to hang a pack from the bottom of the tripod? I'm thinking with something like this you could put tension on the pod without supporting all of the weight, or having the pack hanging completely in the air swinging in the wind.
For that matter, maybe even run the cord to the rifle under the pack? It would keep the tension centered under the tripod. Using your foot as an anchor is going to slightly pull the tension to the rear. Just guessing here, haven't tried any of this yet. First I need a better tripod....
It may help, but I prefer to shoot without a weight hanging from the tripod. Pros and cons to everything.
Weights hanging take longer to set up and take down, and can be pita to carry when not essential.
The cord and camloc is fast to engage, easy to carry, and has other uses.
Reduces training time with camloc, and gives you more mental freedom to concentrate on making the shots.
Each method has benefits, some better suited to your needs than others.
The cord and camloc is fast to engage, easy to carry, and has other uses.
Reduces training time with camloc, and gives you more mental freedom to concentrate on making the shots.
Each method has benefits, some better suited to your needs than others.
Got my camloc set up in the house tonight, will try it out tomorrow. Not on paper at 100 for group, as I won't be shooting at home, but at least I'll have some distance. I'll test it on paper in a day or two. Seems pretty easy to use, and fairly quick to set up.
Preliminary results. Very preliminary.
Shooting on steel today, on a KYL rack at 544, the cord setup seemed to settle the reticle a bit better than going without it. Not enough time on it to say that it absolutely made hitting easier, or that I could hit smaller targets with it, but it seemed to help. I'll run it on paper tomorrow for another data point.
Like all equipment, there is a learning curve. Not only to gain some precision, but also in the deployment of it. I was wearing Rocky Jungle boots, which are my uniform boots. I found that the p-cord would get caught on the sole, and not tighten smoothly. I had to free it a bit, to get it to continue to tighten. Different boots would no doubt provide a different experience.
Another thing I noticed was that where a sling to the belt setup will lower the muzzle when under tension, the p-cord setup raised the muzzle when under tension. Don't know if it matters at all for shooting, but it obviously matters when setting up the gun in the tripod.
As I think I mentioned before, when I switched to the RRS setup, I found it so fast and precise that I ditched the sling assist method. Still nothing wrong with keeping that option open, as my gun has a sling on it anyway...but I will now also keep a p-cord set up in with my tripod. So small and lightweight, I can see it coming in handy even if I don't end up using it to shoot with. And pending more testing, it may very well get used for shooting. I like the fact that if you need to move quickly, you can just lift your foot. With the sling setup, you are tied to the gun.
Shooting on steel today, on a KYL rack at 544, the cord setup seemed to settle the reticle a bit better than going without it. Not enough time on it to say that it absolutely made hitting easier, or that I could hit smaller targets with it, but it seemed to help. I'll run it on paper tomorrow for another data point.
Like all equipment, there is a learning curve. Not only to gain some precision, but also in the deployment of it. I was wearing Rocky Jungle boots, which are my uniform boots. I found that the p-cord would get caught on the sole, and not tighten smoothly. I had to free it a bit, to get it to continue to tighten. Different boots would no doubt provide a different experience.
Another thing I noticed was that where a sling to the belt setup will lower the muzzle when under tension, the p-cord setup raised the muzzle when under tension. Don't know if it matters at all for shooting, but it obviously matters when setting up the gun in the tripod.
As I think I mentioned before, when I switched to the RRS setup, I found it so fast and precise that I ditched the sling assist method. Still nothing wrong with keeping that option open, as my gun has a sling on it anyway...but I will now also keep a p-cord set up in with my tripod. So small and lightweight, I can see it coming in handy even if I don't end up using it to shoot with. And pending more testing, it may very well get used for shooting. I like the fact that if you need to move quickly, you can just lift your foot. With the sling setup, you are tied to the gun.
Went out and shot some groups at 100 today. Pics will follow.
Up front, I like the p-cord cam method. That said, my results today were very inconclusive. I shot too few groups to be meaningful, and frankly, the results were kind of opposite of what you might expect. Nonetheless, I think it has merit, and I will continue testing. I almost always shoot groups as a part of my practice, but almost never more than 1-3. Most of my practice is single shot and follow up shot based, regardless of position, so though I'm a huge believer in group shooting, I don't actually do a whole lot of it, and I don't consider myself awesome at it by any means.
Conditions today were a bit windy, and I was struggling to not be blown around while standing behind the tripod. I was using my AI 308, which I just zero'd with a different scope. My first group with no p-cord was the worst I've ever shot with the RRS. 1 3/8". The next group with the P-cord was better, but not better than my usual RRS groups. 11/16". Even though that isn't better than usual, it is better than I just did TODAY, so I think that gives me reason to think the p-cord has value for me.
Next group was no p-cord again, and it was one of the best groups I ever shot with the RRS. 3/8" Next group with the p-cord was 7/8" :-(
I then shot my Tikka 223, but I have to go back out to check the target, as I forgot to take a pic of it, so that data will follow with the pic.
On the plus side, I got my "boot technique" worked out better, so that went pretty smoothly.
Also, the p-cord setup seems to help with the recoil control of the tripod. Shooting a tripod on grass, the legs will sometimes start to come in if you shoot more than one shot. By the end of a 5 shot string, they can be noticeably smaller in footprint than they were. With the p-cord, I did not find this to happen.
More to follow.
ETA: The target below shows the 308 stuff I talked about up top, and then also the .223 Tikka stuff. The top left .223 group was shot with the RRS, but no p-cord. The top right group was shot with the p-cord. So in this instance, slightly better with the p-cord. Again, too little data to say anything meaningful.
The bottom left group was the first 5 shot, cold bore group fired with the Tikka, after reassembling it again. Pretty impressive gun, I think. Is it that big because its a 5 shot group instead of a 3, or because the very lite profile barrel heated up?
Up front, I like the p-cord cam method. That said, my results today were very inconclusive. I shot too few groups to be meaningful, and frankly, the results were kind of opposite of what you might expect. Nonetheless, I think it has merit, and I will continue testing. I almost always shoot groups as a part of my practice, but almost never more than 1-3. Most of my practice is single shot and follow up shot based, regardless of position, so though I'm a huge believer in group shooting, I don't actually do a whole lot of it, and I don't consider myself awesome at it by any means.
Conditions today were a bit windy, and I was struggling to not be blown around while standing behind the tripod. I was using my AI 308, which I just zero'd with a different scope. My first group with no p-cord was the worst I've ever shot with the RRS. 1 3/8". The next group with the P-cord was better, but not better than my usual RRS groups. 11/16". Even though that isn't better than usual, it is better than I just did TODAY, so I think that gives me reason to think the p-cord has value for me.
Next group was no p-cord again, and it was one of the best groups I ever shot with the RRS. 3/8" Next group with the p-cord was 7/8" :-(
I then shot my Tikka 223, but I have to go back out to check the target, as I forgot to take a pic of it, so that data will follow with the pic.
On the plus side, I got my "boot technique" worked out better, so that went pretty smoothly.
Also, the p-cord setup seems to help with the recoil control of the tripod. Shooting a tripod on grass, the legs will sometimes start to come in if you shoot more than one shot. By the end of a 5 shot string, they can be noticeably smaller in footprint than they were. With the p-cord, I did not find this to happen.
More to follow.
ETA: The target below shows the 308 stuff I talked about up top, and then also the .223 Tikka stuff. The top left .223 group was shot with the RRS, but no p-cord. The top right group was shot with the p-cord. So in this instance, slightly better with the p-cord. Again, too little data to say anything meaningful.
The bottom left group was the first 5 shot, cold bore group fired with the Tikka, after reassembling it again. Pretty impressive gun, I think. Is it that big because its a 5 shot group instead of a 3, or because the very lite profile barrel heated up?
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This seems to be turning into a diary. 
Shot some groups at 200 yards today. Without the cam, I shot a sub .75 moa group, right at 1 3/8". With the cam loc, I shot a 1 moa group, right at 2". In fairness, there was a bit more 9-3 wind for that group, and I may not have adjusted properly. Little .223's... Still very mixed results, but I may know why. I think I need to stand a bit further back with the cam loc, and put a bit more of my body into the tripod. Seems to make me steadier, but I ran out of time before I could try it.
Shot some groups at 200 yards today. Without the cam, I shot a sub .75 moa group, right at 1 3/8". With the cam loc, I shot a 1 moa group, right at 2". In fairness, there was a bit more 9-3 wind for that group, and I may not have adjusted properly. Little .223's... Still very mixed results, but I may know why. I think I need to stand a bit further back with the cam loc, and put a bit more of my body into the tripod. Seems to make me steadier, but I ran out of time before I could try it.
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It's going to be an interesting diary. Dont stop. Be some good teaching points come out of it. Waiting for more.
What I suspect, is kind of what I thought from the beginning. There may be a more precise way to shoot off a tripod, but given real world targets and the ease, simplicity and speed of just using the tripod, it probably will not matter. As I think I said before, this is a bit of an academic exercise.
I do think that the cam loc makes the setup steadier though, especially in the wind. That may be worth knowing at some point.
I agree on camlock steadier in wind.
I often come across wrong on training topics, perhaps too strong. Sometimes it's better I keep mouth shut. Still learning that lesson.
My cord method is much simpler, and maybe time for me to post it. 550 to front sling swivel with slip knot loop. Rifle across tripod, 550 under foot, tighten up, stomp, shoot.
And you ask, where is loose end of 550 secured, .....
Teeth. Redneck method of mine. Nothing really tethered, can quick detach 550 from swivel pretty quick with slip knot.
I dont like tethered, and not being able to dump and run as neccessary. Got gassed on a callout once tethered, couldn't get loose fast enough, and mask failure... I was in dumbass mode, operator failure. So, my methods got simpler.
Not trying to detract from what you are doing.
Your earlier comment on boot tread. First boot I used was a pre 1965 black leather almost slick sole U.S. combat boot. Busted my ass more than once in wet grass, went to the black leather ripple sole basic training boot that followed the earlier boot.
Then the vibram sole 65-67 jungle boot, then the 69 Panama tread jungle boot, and same tread pattern in black jungle boots and desert boots. To a number of other issue boot tread patterns, and had to adjust to digging the left boot toe in to adjust to whatever tread/sole was on the boot. Using the Panama tread ro current usmc boot tread, so toe dig in is critical to holding 550 cord down. Just my junk technique.
I often come across wrong on training topics, perhaps too strong. Sometimes it's better I keep mouth shut. Still learning that lesson.
My cord method is much simpler, and maybe time for me to post it. 550 to front sling swivel with slip knot loop. Rifle across tripod, 550 under foot, tighten up, stomp, shoot.
And you ask, where is loose end of 550 secured, .....
Teeth. Redneck method of mine. Nothing really tethered, can quick detach 550 from swivel pretty quick with slip knot.
I dont like tethered, and not being able to dump and run as neccessary. Got gassed on a callout once tethered, couldn't get loose fast enough, and mask failure... I was in dumbass mode, operator failure. So, my methods got simpler.
Not trying to detract from what you are doing.
Your earlier comment on boot tread. First boot I used was a pre 1965 black leather almost slick sole U.S. combat boot. Busted my ass more than once in wet grass, went to the black leather ripple sole basic training boot that followed the earlier boot.
Then the vibram sole 65-67 jungle boot, then the 69 Panama tread jungle boot, and same tread pattern in black jungle boots and desert boots. To a number of other issue boot tread patterns, and had to adjust to digging the left boot toe in to adjust to whatever tread/sole was on the boot. Using the Panama tread ro current usmc boot tread, so toe dig in is critical to holding 550 cord down. Just my junk technique.
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Not at all, I appreciate your input here.
I completely agree about simpler being better, which is the main reason I'm such a fan of the RRS setup. It doesn't actually require anything, in order to make fast accurate hits. Much more so than any other tripod setup I have used. Any complicating factor, in this case a tensioning system, has to be "better" in some critical way, or it just isn't worth it. I try to do some tripod practice at least every 3 training sessions or so (which works out to about twice a week), so I don't mind shooting a few extra groups, or working on my deployment technique, to try a new to me method.
Also, my work gun is being reworked right now, and it has a rail on the bottom. My substitute gun needs the Vyce. Once I go back to the main gun, things may change a bit since I won't be using the Vyce anymore. Most of my practice with the cam loc method is using personal guns, but in the Vyce.
I completely agree about simpler being better, which is the main reason I'm such a fan of the RRS setup. It doesn't actually require anything, in order to make fast accurate hits. Much more so than any other tripod setup I have used. Any complicating factor, in this case a tensioning system, has to be "better" in some critical way, or it just isn't worth it. I try to do some tripod practice at least every 3 training sessions or so (which works out to about twice a week), so I don't mind shooting a few extra groups, or working on my deployment technique, to try a new to me method.
Also, my work gun is being reworked right now, and it has a rail on the bottom. My substitute gun needs the Vyce. Once I go back to the main gun, things may change a bit since I won't be using the Vyce anymore. Most of my practice with the cam loc method is using personal guns, but in the Vyce.
Tripod plus primos sticks. Very solid, very repeatable. And two carry options usable in a variety of other conditions.
ive had good success with a rear bag ontop the primo sticks, speeds up the fine tuning... nice set up and blaster!
@j-husky I hardly ever have shot free recoiling "in the real world". In the real world, when I'm trying to kill stuff, I'm shooting my .300WM and everything you say tracks. I load into an Atlas, and I'll load into a tripod.
I shoot free recoil with 6x47L (a nothing recoiling cartridge out of a heavy rifle) in practice and in competition all the time and can still spot for myself. Off a RRS tripod you hardly have to touch the rifle or the tripod shooting a low recoil .308 variant. With a Hog Saddle or an Arca Swiss mount there's no reason for any muscle fatigue, because there's no reason to load into anything. It isn't "real world", but it is real.
So.....
The heavier the tripod, the more support it offers.
A long time ago, ma deuce had to have sandbags on the feet to secure her, for consistent repeatable results.
Otherwise md skittered on top of the surface and moved around.
And sometimes md dug in deeper in loose dirt. This was way less of a problem than skitter movement, but a problem nonetheless.
So.
In a training session, we did:
standing unsupported, NRA style
standing slung, NRA hasty sling style
tripod standing unsupported and not locked on (nlo)
tripod standing slung, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, sandbag hung, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, rope to foot, similar to camloc, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, 550 to belt, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, with primos, nlo
The stronger the support mechanism, the better the results.
And we did some various combos locked on. (Least effective for group).
First round hits were easy at distances out to 600.
Group shooting only worked if we rebuilt the position exactly the same each shot, no matter the chosen iteration position.
The better physical condition mattered.
The better the upper body strength mattered.
The better overall body strength was best.... along with....
The better physical condition with overall body, coupled with already proven ability to shoot well in all other positions gave **moa** consistently....
IF the position was rebuilt each time.
If the rifle was locked to the tripod, the recoil moving the tripod REQUIRED rebuilding the position for npa. Otherwise, locked on SUCKED for us.
Still experimenting. No pics any better than those posted by SLG.
The heavier the tripod, the more support it offers.
A long time ago, ma deuce had to have sandbags on the feet to secure her, for consistent repeatable results.
Otherwise md skittered on top of the surface and moved around.
And sometimes md dug in deeper in loose dirt. This was way less of a problem than skitter movement, but a problem nonetheless.
So.
In a training session, we did:
standing unsupported, NRA style
standing slung, NRA hasty sling style
tripod standing unsupported and not locked on (nlo)
tripod standing slung, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, sandbag hung, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, rope to foot, similar to camloc, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, 550 to belt, nlo
tripod standing, unsup and slung, with primos, nlo
The stronger the support mechanism, the better the results.
And we did some various combos locked on. (Least effective for group).
First round hits were easy at distances out to 600.
Group shooting only worked if we rebuilt the position exactly the same each shot, no matter the chosen iteration position.
The better physical condition mattered.
The better the upper body strength mattered.
The better overall body strength was best.... along with....
The better physical condition with overall body, coupled with already proven ability to shoot well in all other positions gave **moa** consistently....
IF the position was rebuilt each time.
If the rifle was locked to the tripod, the recoil moving the tripod REQUIRED rebuilding the position for npa. Otherwise, locked on SUCKED for us.
Still experimenting. No pics any better than those posted by SLG.
I don't disagree with you, especially when shooting ELR, and especially with magnum cartridges or other higher recoil cartridges. That is the way I shoot, and would whenever possible. It's not always possible.
You can't always load into the rifle/bipod in a competition. I rarely am able to shoot game off a bipod, and if I am it's usually because of some prior preparation.
Shooting free recoil proficiently, to me, is a critical skill for tactical steel competitions given all the situations where you just can't use a bipod or load into it or the rifle. That's kind of the point; throwing the marksman off so he's NOT doing the same, repeatable operations every shot.
Creating stability through loading is often made difficult or impossible on purpose. Sometimes it's not possible to stabilize the rifle, but it is to stabilize the object off which you are shooting, like sideways barrels.
The most obvious example is a Viking Barricade or cattle gate that is (intentionally) wobbly. Loading into it will not improve stability, and will actually make it worse. Or, what about a stage where the rifle is above your shoulder? I've shot off new steel barrels where bipod cleats would not grab...no loading.
I'm not telling anyone to start shooting free recoil over loading into the rifle when it is an option, because I agree that's the way to get the most precision/accuracy. I'm only saying that being able to shoot free recoil is an important skill to have in your trick bag, and at short ranges, under 500 yards, I really don't hesitate to use it if I think loading up isn't going to work...
I've shot extensively off of them as well as having to make them work with being on target through a loophole/blind which leaves you in a less than ideal position usually.
The camlock cord idea above is a similiar technique to what I had gotten comfortable with in utilizing the sling already on the gun and simply creating the same triangular tension via fastening/twisting the sling to a carabiner/D ring on your belt.
Other versions included candy caning the sling around the tripod leg on the non firing side or with an adjustable sling, twisting the sling 1 or 2 turns around a tripod leg and then tightening the adjustment down so it basically held the gun by itself. With innovations like the HOG saddle and now the direct attach methods like RRS uses, this is a far cry from what you had to do when something like a padded nylon rest was the latest and greatest. I'm actually in the market for an RRS ANVIL because of this.
You also want to make sure that your sling attachment points are as far forward and aft as you can manage.
I'm now curious what would happen if you had the 550 cord + camlock setup AND you fastened via sling. Either it would be rock solid, or it would be a fucking disaster. Might try it just to see.
The single biggest mistakes people make when tripod shooting is the tripod is usually putting the gun up too high and people tend to want to approach the rifle at an angle to get it in their shoulder, when instead they need to approach it and load it naturally just like shooting prone.
The camlock cord idea above is a similiar technique to what I had gotten comfortable with in utilizing the sling already on the gun and simply creating the same triangular tension via fastening/twisting the sling to a carabiner/D ring on your belt.
Other versions included candy caning the sling around the tripod leg on the non firing side or with an adjustable sling, twisting the sling 1 or 2 turns around a tripod leg and then tightening the adjustment down so it basically held the gun by itself. With innovations like the HOG saddle and now the direct attach methods like RRS uses, this is a far cry from what you had to do when something like a padded nylon rest was the latest and greatest. I'm actually in the market for an RRS ANVIL because of this.
You also want to make sure that your sling attachment points are as far forward and aft as you can manage.
I'm now curious what would happen if you had the 550 cord + camlock setup AND you fastened via sling. Either it would be rock solid, or it would be a fucking disaster. Might try it just to see.
The single biggest mistakes people make when tripod shooting is the tripod is usually putting the gun up too high and people tend to want to approach the rifle at an angle to get it in their shoulder, when instead they need to approach it and load it naturally just like shooting prone.
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I use a bungie equipped sling to create tension. For me shooting left handed, the sling is attached opposite side of butt stock and is routed up and over the stock, then over my left shoulder. From there, across my back and under my right armpit and then forward to the other attachment point which is 0300 or 0600 on the fore end. Right hand wraps the sling over and out, then under and back to the stock. Square your feet and shoulders to the rifle then add or subtract tension with the position of your forward elbow.
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Don't use free recoil if you want any chance of witnessing your impact.
The free recoil crap needs to stay and die with benchrest shooters and/or people who bolt down their 90lb rifle packed with lead weights. It has absolutely no useful benefit when it comes to anything outside of that scenario.
None.
None.
Sorry, you mean .2 on the scope. I thought you meant .2 from the group.
So, you're saying that you can shoot .7 or better on demand?
What are we making this out to be?
Deep-diving, yes. That's the point.
What is impractical?
I pretty much agree completely. I think my first posts and my groups show that. I use a RRS, because it is so superior to a wobbly tripod and a sling.
Nonetheless, this is the advanced marksmanship section, right? I want to see what the known limit on this is, and see if I can improve what I'm doing. And see if the time and effort to improve in this area is worth it. Plenty of things to work on...
Nonetheless, this is the advanced marksmanship section, right? I want to see what the known limit on this is, and see if I can improve what I'm doing. And see if the time and effort to improve in this area is worth it. Plenty of things to work on...
This is a great diary !
So far, it seems like there are ALMOST as many different techniques that people like, as there are people
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I've been shooting off manfrottos since Dec 15 ... and quickly evolved to about 45% of my shooting, being off tripods ... another 45% is standing unsupported with carbines ... and the other 10% is "all else" ... prone is very rare ... just doesn't work in this terrain.
The main thing I do that I'm not seeing others emphasize is extend my support arm, grab the forearm and apply downward pressure. This seems to produce tighter groups and keeps the scope on target.
==
I now have an RRS and that seems to have halved the group size ... with no technique change. I have started to experiment with putting my feet back a bit and leaning forward. Not sure whether that is helping yet. Still just starting to try it.
So far, it seems like there are ALMOST as many different techniques that people like, as there are people
==
I've been shooting off manfrottos since Dec 15 ... and quickly evolved to about 45% of my shooting, being off tripods ... another 45% is standing unsupported with carbines ... and the other 10% is "all else" ... prone is very rare ... just doesn't work in this terrain.
The main thing I do that I'm not seeing others emphasize is extend my support arm, grab the forearm and apply downward pressure. This seems to produce tighter groups and keeps the scope on target.
==
I now have an RRS and that seems to have halved the group size ... with no technique change. I have started to experiment with putting my feet back a bit and leaning forward. Not sure whether that is helping yet. Still just starting to try it.
I do this. Works fine for me, better than the cords, camlocks, or lock in with no hand in front. Standing position or seated.
I periodically have to rebuild the position after tripod movement after a few shots.
Free recoil does NOT work for me. Off any tripod or head.
The off hand on the forearm is the most natural response to all other training where the firearm is controlled by the shooters body, limbs, etc.
Now, try that with primos sticks or a monopod, and it doesnt work well for me, I have to put the off hand on the sticks/pod.
Aye, buried in the 10% "all else" is a tiny bit of primos ... I started with the 3-legged ones ... busted 2 of those, still have 1 that works. Got a 1-legged one ... us that once a quarter. Don't think I've ever used the 3rd 3-legged one ... I guess i'm "saving" it
The 1 legged one helps with situations like coons at 150yds ... which are a tad far for standing unsupported. But I hardly ever remember to take it ... though the few times I do, it has proven useful. I just find being hands free helps climb over fences and up and down creek banks. So carbine strapped on with 2 point sling ... then I can go hands free to help move. The 1-legged one is a decent walking stick, though it has a BIG SIGN on it that says words to the effect "Do Not Use As Walking Stick"
There is is, pic of carbine with 1-legged stick ...
The 1 legged one helps with situations like coons at 150yds ... which are a tad far for standing unsupported. But I hardly ever remember to take it ... though the few times I do, it has proven useful. I just find being hands free helps climb over fences and up and down creek banks. So carbine strapped on with 2 point sling ... then I can go hands free to help move. The 1-legged one is a decent walking stick, though it has a BIG SIGN on it that says words to the effect "Do Not Use As Walking Stick"
There is is, pic of carbine with 1-legged stick ...
Just a beginner, my assumption is that variations of my shots will most likely be me varying my fundamentals.
The comments of J-Huskey ring true for me. Simplicity in gear and building fundamentals is priority-one for me.
That said, I've started with a fine rifle, match ammunition, extraordinary optics, an adequate set of arms connected to a body that knows the stillness of a monastic order and a planet earth that occasionally throws surprises to any of us.
Some added gear allows me flexibility in odd conditions....if I happen to want to lug the extra stuff into back-country where I am happiest hiking off-trail and not using a 4-wheeler transport.
An already-owned tripod allows me extra stability if standing is a necessity in the prairies where bracing against a tree or rock outcrop is a figment of the imagination. The prairie states and provinces would benefit by a Johnny Appleseed of oak and ash trees. Such a Johnny of Oaks has not yet done much in the Great Plains wildlands. Having grown-up in the Tall Bluestem Prairies where grasslands can force my short stature (5" 6") into a standing position, my tripod and cradling device is only a once-in-a-while necessity.
Having mastered ultra-close-up photography, microscopic imagery and telescopic viewing of the stars I have a significant Gitzo Ultra-low & High tripod with their ball-head capable of holding 1000mm lenses and solid brass camera bodies steady in the unceasing winds of the Dakotas (all-seasons). The ball-head is capable of measured rotation 360 degrees and simultaneous articulation of the ball joint to permit zenith and nadir aim of a camera or rifle. The Ultra-Low & High tripod permits lens or barrel placement in rock-solid alignment at 3 inches above ground or 78+ inches above (using the taller center post that can be switched under the ball-head). I'm too short to fully use the tallest tripod height extension.
Atop the Gitzo ball-head is the Hog Saddle for nesting the rifle fore-end (used primarily for sharing the rifle-shooting experience with a few friends unable to squat, crouch, get in the dirt or use the David Tubb asymmetrical bipod for the easiest acquisition of my Natural Point Of Aim). While my bipod is capable of aligning in a sitting position for shooting, it is not one I prefer.
With all the extraordinary wisdom, advice and experiments you all mention in this forum, I am certain to try new skills that are proven in your many years of filed-smarts.
Targets at 200 are .75 inch pattern of three on and next to the centerpoint.
Thankful for your insights,
Stephen
The comments of J-Huskey ring true for me. Simplicity in gear and building fundamentals is priority-one for me.
That said, I've started with a fine rifle, match ammunition, extraordinary optics, an adequate set of arms connected to a body that knows the stillness of a monastic order and a planet earth that occasionally throws surprises to any of us.
Some added gear allows me flexibility in odd conditions....if I happen to want to lug the extra stuff into back-country where I am happiest hiking off-trail and not using a 4-wheeler transport.
An already-owned tripod allows me extra stability if standing is a necessity in the prairies where bracing against a tree or rock outcrop is a figment of the imagination. The prairie states and provinces would benefit by a Johnny Appleseed of oak and ash trees. Such a Johnny of Oaks has not yet done much in the Great Plains wildlands. Having grown-up in the Tall Bluestem Prairies where grasslands can force my short stature (5" 6") into a standing position, my tripod and cradling device is only a once-in-a-while necessity.
Having mastered ultra-close-up photography, microscopic imagery and telescopic viewing of the stars I have a significant Gitzo Ultra-low & High tripod with their ball-head capable of holding 1000mm lenses and solid brass camera bodies steady in the unceasing winds of the Dakotas (all-seasons). The ball-head is capable of measured rotation 360 degrees and simultaneous articulation of the ball joint to permit zenith and nadir aim of a camera or rifle. The Ultra-Low & High tripod permits lens or barrel placement in rock-solid alignment at 3 inches above ground or 78+ inches above (using the taller center post that can be switched under the ball-head). I'm too short to fully use the tallest tripod height extension.
Atop the Gitzo ball-head is the Hog Saddle for nesting the rifle fore-end (used primarily for sharing the rifle-shooting experience with a few friends unable to squat, crouch, get in the dirt or use the David Tubb asymmetrical bipod for the easiest acquisition of my Natural Point Of Aim). While my bipod is capable of aligning in a sitting position for shooting, it is not one I prefer.
With all the extraordinary wisdom, advice and experiments you all mention in this forum, I am certain to try new skills that are proven in your many years of filed-smarts.
Targets at 200 are .75 inch pattern of three on and next to the centerpoint.
Thankful for your insights,
Stephen
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Such poetic writing style !!!
Nice simple rifle !
Nice simple rifle !
So just another data point for you. I went through this whole tripod exercise and invested in an RRS setup with leveling base.
Here's a pic with my Custom FN SPR sitting on top of it:
I'm a pretty consistent .4-.5 moa with my setup over a bipod/bag with occasional .1 - .3s every now & again. I wanted to quantify the accuracy difference between this & a tripod setup so I shot back to back 5 shot groups at 300 yards. This was the first time I ever tried off the tripod
Here's the bipod/bag results at 300 yards- 1.125" (.375 moa) A touch better than my overall average:
And the tripod results in the standing position:
So came in at 4.75" or 1.5 moa. Naturally didn't feel as secure as the prone bipod/bag position.
I reached out to the Hide and got a lot of great suggestions. Diver160651 was really helpful.
After much experimentation and practice, here is what found works for me:
Turning tripod around with two legs facing forward instead of towards me. Gripping front leg
Bottom legs retracted halfway (me leaning over more & driving the rifle)
RRS claw feet to give added bite into ground
TAB PRS sling attached to rifle & carabiner off my belt & cinched up tight. This really helped with stability.
Here is how it looks:
Improved dramatically and consistent sub moa. I did notice that it is much harder to maintain consistency vs a bipod/bag, but here is one test I shot at 200 yards back to back: (1 inch dots)
I do notice that I get a slight shift to the left with my zero, probably due to sling & hand pulling it off slightly. I will usually adjust for it .1 mil when I am setup on my sling. I would say I probably average .75 moa with groups ranging from some occasional lucky .5s to 1 moa.
Mind you this is with a .308, so might be a little easier with 6.5s or 6s.
Hope that helps!
Here's a pic with my Custom FN SPR sitting on top of it:
I'm a pretty consistent .4-.5 moa with my setup over a bipod/bag with occasional .1 - .3s every now & again. I wanted to quantify the accuracy difference between this & a tripod setup so I shot back to back 5 shot groups at 300 yards. This was the first time I ever tried off the tripod
Here's the bipod/bag results at 300 yards- 1.125" (.375 moa) A touch better than my overall average:
And the tripod results in the standing position:
So came in at 4.75" or 1.5 moa. Naturally didn't feel as secure as the prone bipod/bag position.
I reached out to the Hide and got a lot of great suggestions. Diver160651 was really helpful.
After much experimentation and practice, here is what found works for me:
Turning tripod around with two legs facing forward instead of towards me. Gripping front leg
Bottom legs retracted halfway (me leaning over more & driving the rifle)
RRS claw feet to give added bite into ground
TAB PRS sling attached to rifle & carabiner off my belt & cinched up tight. This really helped with stability.
Here is how it looks:
Improved dramatically and consistent sub moa. I did notice that it is much harder to maintain consistency vs a bipod/bag, but here is one test I shot at 200 yards back to back: (1 inch dots)
I do notice that I get a slight shift to the left with my zero, probably due to sling & hand pulling it off slightly. I will usually adjust for it .1 mil when I am setup on my sling. I would say I probably average .75 moa with groups ranging from some occasional lucky .5s to 1 moa.
Mind you this is with a .308, so might be a little easier with 6.5s or 6s.
Hope that helps!
Attachments
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