Bullets tumbling/key-holing, not good.

D

David.C

Private
Minuteman
Jul 20, 2019
30
17
#1
Hi all!!! I’m new to the forum, but I’ve garnered a lot of information here over the years. I have a question for the group. Hoping ya’ll can help. I’m having trouble with bullets tumbling out of my new build. I called Berger on Friday and used their load recommendation. I couldn’t get any accuracy out of the loads below. I’ll provide rifle and load spec below. Any help is much appreciated.

Gun:
22-250 Remington, Curtis Axiom action, Broughton Barrel 25in 1:7 twist, MPA Lite Chassis

Load data:
Barnes 85gr Match, 35gr N160, CCI 200 LRP, OGIVE: 2.094
Hornaday 80gr ELD Match, 33gr H4350, CCI 200 LRP, OGIVE: 2.069
Berger 90gr VLD, 29.5gr H4350, CCI 200 LRP, OGIVE: 2.099
Berger 90gr VLD, 33gr H4350, CCI 200 LRP, OGIVE: 2.099
*All bullets seated in the lands at the OGIVE measurement (+/- .001)
**group is from another gun

AkbFnaM.jpg

gRNS0Dm.jpg
 
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#2
I cannot see your pics. Im guessing the pics might help show us the problem your having but what do you mean by tumbling? What distance are you shooting the groups at? Could some of the jackets be separating? Im familiar with bullets tumbling but it’s usually after they impact a barrier and continue traveling or they slow down enough to destabilize and start to tumble.
 
#5
What backer is behind that target?? I have seen plywood or other wood material splash back toward the target and tear it bigger than the bullet diameter in odd shapes... not saying thats what’s happening here but i have seen it happen more than once.
 
#11
David.C said:
I looked all over the barrel, and can find no markings for twist. The barreled action was machined/assembled by a very reputable shop in in Azle, Tx. Build information was provided by them, I emailed them yesterday. Waiting for a reply.
Click to expand...
Stick a tight fitting patch on your cleaning rod, stick it in the barrel. See how many inches it takes for it to spin a complete revolution.
 
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#14
Check twist rate per the method above and confirm that there is no barrel interference (brake, suppressor, burrs around the muzzle, etc.).

If it is threaded I would recommend shooting without a muzzle device to see if that has any impact. If the muzzle is not threaded, really the twist rate has to be wrong or the barrel itself is bad.
 
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#16
Sorry to hear that Brother. What did the twist rate turn out to be? I have only ever had one 22-250 and it was a factory Rem 700 Varmint with a 1-14 twist barrel...shot ok with 45 grain projectiles, not so much with anything else. That rifle didn’t last long in my inventory
 
#19
Supersubes said:
I’m sure they’re take care of it.

Wonder if it was a mismarked barrel, or the smith grabbed the wrong blank and overlooked it?
Click to expand...

I already spoke to them, they're pretty sure the barrel was mis-marked. They assured me they were gonna make it right for me.
Dan M said:
PS- If I paid for a 1-7 twist barrel and received something else, the smith and I would be having some strong words.
Click to expand...

It was hard to get an accurate / consistent measurement using that method... I kept getting between 1:12 - 1:14 roughly. I measured multiple times, nothing close to a 1:7 twist.


 
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#20
At least you have a smith that is going to hopefully make it right. Stuff happens. Just sucks that it does.
Must have been a Monday/Friday barrel like my first suppressor that arrived not concentric from the factory lol.
 
#22
You could get crazy and use it to disintegrate varmints with 40grn bullets like the old days.

(I don't understand the heavy bullets in .224, just not what they were designed for. 6mm does 80-90grn bullets better... )
 
#23
chevy_man said:
You could get crazy and use it to disintegrate varmints with 40grn bullets like the old days.

(I don't understand the heavy bullets in .224, just not what they were designed for. 6mm does 80-90grn bullets better... )
Click to expand...
Really? You don't understand more weight ==> more length ==> higher BC? On a precision shooting forum?
 
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#28
hlee said:
Really? You don't understand more weight ==> more length ==> higher BC? On a precision shooting forum?
Click to expand...

I was poking the bear, because everyone needs to stuff the longest bullet possible in every single cartridge right now.

It just doesn't surprise me that any Smith would make that mistake, but they're making it right so I figured we were past the serious troubleshooting.
 
#30
chevy_man said:
I don't understand the heavy bullets in .224
Click to expand...

It all stems from the efforts (mainly by Bill Wylde and the US Army Marksmanship Unit) in the early to mid 90s to turn the AR-15 into a competitive Service Rifle capable of X-ring (1 MOA) accuracy with equal or better wind drift resistance (compared to the .308 cal Sierra 168 Match King) all the way to 600 yards.

They succeeded beyond their wildest expectations. By the turn of the century the National Match M-14 was virtually obsolete as a competition rifle.
 
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#31
Dan M said:
Sorry to hear that Brother. What did the twist rate turn out to be? I have only ever had one 22-250 and it was a factory Rem 700 Varmint with a 1-14 twist barrel...shot ok with 45 grain projectiles, not so much with anything else. That rifle didn’t last long in my inventory
Click to expand...

My wife & daughter both have a 1-9 twist guns (factory barreled action, w/ trigger chassis upgrades). Both shoot "ok" (50-55gr), sub 1 minute. I wanted something a little slower, heavier, and less affected by wind.


chevy_man said:
You could get crazy and use it to disintegrate varmints with 40grn bullets like the old days.

(I don't understand the heavy bullets in .224, just not what they were designed for. 6mm does 80-90grn bullets better... )
Click to expand...

It's just a preference, think of it like a Camaro... There is a aftermarket part available for every part of that car, and most are readily available & cheap.
 
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#32
David.C said:
My wife & daughter both have a 1-9 twist guns (factory barreled action, w/ trigger chassis upgrades). Both shoot "ok" (50-55gr), sub 1 minute. I wanted something a little slower, heavier, and less affected by wind.




It's just a preference, think of it like a Camaro... There is a aftermarket part available for every part of that car, and most are readily available & cheap.
Click to expand...



308pirate said:
It all stems from the efforts (mainly by Bill Wylde and the US Army Marksmanship Unit) in the early to mid 90s to turn the AR-15 into a competitive Service Rifle capable of X-ring (1 MOA) accuracy with equal or better wind drift resistance (compared to the .308 cal Sierra 168 Match King) all the way to 600 yards.

They succeeded beyond their wildest expectations. By the turn of the century the National Match M-14 was virtually obsolete as a competition rifle.
Click to expand...


I'm just poking fun at the "heavier the better" and "6mm does everything best" guys.

Glad the Smith is making it right.
 
#34
David,
I doubt the barrel was mismarked.
Broughton doesn't make mistakes
Always save the breech end with the info on it.
Always double check before leaving the shop.
 
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#39
chevy_man said:
You could get crazy and use it to disintegrate varmints with 40grn bullets like the old days.

(I don't understand the heavy bullets in .224, just not what they were designed for. 6mm does 80-90grn bullets better... )
Click to expand...

yep. Nothing like a vmax nearing 4000 fps out of a 22-250 or a .220 swift.
FrontHalf.jpg

sometimes there's just a vapor trail.
 
#40
I agree about the heavy bullets and the .22-250 not being so compatible. Yes, they will shoot, and well, assuming sufficient rifling twist.

But there is a pretty big downside, too. The case capacity of the .22-250 is big for the .224 bore. The charges involved produce a lot of energy; I think more energy that can be adequately dissipated via that smaller bore. This mean heat, and a lot of it; cascading as strings progress. The chambering just may be more than that which can provide sustained strings of fire.

My own experience was that I simply could not get a .22-250 through a Highpower/F Open Class COF without seriously overheating the barrel, and that was with 52gr-ish bullets. Upping the bullet weight significantly simply piles on the energy to the point where bore wear/erosion becomes prohibitive. Aside from damage to the bore/throat, the immediate practical downside was degraded accuracy starting about halfway through a 20rd string of fire.

It was precisely this phenomenon which drove me back, kicking and screaming, to the .223/5.56 chambering. I can only imagine how this situation affects the 22 Nosler and/or 224 Valkyrie chamberings.

TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch...)

When you want more than 223/5.56 performance from a smaller bore diameter, well; 6.5mm is also a smaller bore diameter; and it's far better equipped to handle bigger case capacities. For AR-15 platforms, I'm taking up the 6.5 Grendel; and for distances starting at 600yd and going well past 1000yd, I have the .260 in a 28" barrel. This is about using the right tool for the job.

Greg
 
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#43
My 1 in 7 22-250 lasted 700 rounds shooting the 80 a max at 3200fps with, 4000MR and 4831SC, shot at the pace I shoot all my other rifles. My factory 22-250 was shooting fine at 1k when I pulled it down, mostly 55 and 40g v max. I am not nice to them, I get them hot and don't care. I went back in with a 1 in 9 23" barrel this time. I have only shot 53 v max out of it, and only 80 rounds so far.
 
#44
Dan M said:
Good article explaining overbore
Click to expand...

I guess context in my post would have made more sense. I was asking in relation to this.

Greg Langelius * said:
My own experience was that I simply could not get a .22-250 through a Highpower/F Open Class COF without seriously overheating the barrel, and that was with 52gr-ish bullets. Upping the bullet weight significantly simply piles on the energy to the point where bore wear/erosion becomes prohibitive
Click to expand...
Running a 22-250 with a 52gr bullet uses significantly more powder than a 90gr bullet. So wouldn't the 90gr load mean less erosion?
 
#46
OK… Big shout out to Mirage ULR (Azle, Tx), thank you Dan and George for making it right. Barrel was replaced with a 1:7 twist IBI barrel. Shooting .224 90gr Bergers, 36.6gr IMR4831, Hornaday brass, CCI 200 primers. My parents came into town for vacation, took my dad to the range with me. Can’t help but be a little impressed just because it’s .22, lol.
CONDITIONS: Sonora, TX., 85-90*, 5-8mph head wind



My dad’s group at 1000


With my last 5 rds I was able to walk on 1200 in 2x rds, on the plate for the last 3. +26.5 moa
 
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