Rifle Scopes BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

[orkan]

This thread is being spawned from lowlights original attempt to discuss the idea.

For those that missed it, essentially the idea is that if your optic fails on your rifle... you can abort the scope and quickly attach a secondary optic that would allow you to stay in the fight and put accurate long range shots afield.

Lowlight gave the acog using a GDI mount as an example.

I'd like to explore all the options out there regarding this. Namely, we need to define what to expect from the various QD mounts and solutions out there.

Will it only work with an acog and a gdi, or are there others that have been used with success?

 

[vmpglenn]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

If you're not constrained by the military's generally available inventory of optics, a TA11E in a LaRue RCO or Bobro mount would work really well as a backup optic. The bullet drop ladder is calibrated for .308 and the eye relief is worlds better than on a TA31 series.

I would think an ACOG of some type would almost be the default here, since batteries are not involved and the sights are dead simple and very rugged.

I'm just about to the point where my KAC SR25 EMC will have a dedicated NF 2.5-10x32 mil/mil in a LaRue mount, a TA11E in a LaRue mount, and an Aimpoint Micro T-1 in a LaRue mount for really close in stuff.

 

[Strangedays]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

The sight and the mount are just as important. There is a reason Larue keeps being mentioned.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

BUIS

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Mods... a little help here?

My first instinct was to let fly a tongue lashing that would make satan blush... but this site is literally going to end up like ar15.com if we all do that.

The only solution I see is for the mods to step in and kill off topic posts. I don't know how much more clearly I could have put the intention of this thread... yet there are those that delight in derailing it.

If I'm out of line, just let me know and I'll gladly stop participating on this site. Otherwise, please delete the bullshit posts, including this one, so that an actual TECHNICAL discussion can go on.

 

[DaveV]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BUIS </div></div>

+1

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Can't a guy quote someone's previous posting anymore? Sheesh.

 

[Arch]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

You see a coyote and your optic fails? Look for another. After a few hours, go home.

 

[rero360]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

While I think BUIS is indeed perfectly acceptible for your run of the mill grunts, the basis for these discusions is to focus on the DMs and Snipers where I personally think a BUIS is not up to snuff.

Yes everyone should have a solid foundation of shooting with iron sites, however if one can have a back up scope that is small and dependable and is better than irons then why not have it at your disposal?

I can think of a number of situations where a primary scope might be damaged and where the soldier needs to stay in the fight and where irons would be of poor use. I mean ACOGs and the small, low powered USOs don't take up alot of space which I know is always at a premium.

My thinking on the whole deal is that it does sound neat, and I understand alot of people might be hesitant to try something new, but hey, with some further investigation it may prove to be a great idea or it may prove to be a waste. Nothing wrong with looking into a new idea, if people did try new stuff we'd still be lining up shoulder to shoulder and trading volleys with the enemy

 

[Arch]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Good point. Keep ORKAN in the fight!

 

[blksno]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Being a hunter/shooter only...i would say i dont have a need for a BUOS, however, i do enjoy haveing my green lasermax unigreen mounted in front of my scope, for situations predator hunting either at dusk or dawn when I can actually shoot from the hip when a coyote is looking in my direction or for track a running 'yote without having to look through the scope. Def only for a low light situation though.

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

We don't really need to discuss the need do we? It exists for guys on a two way range. I'm not in that situation anymore. However, when I go coyote hunting I'll often park the truck and be on foot all day long.

Let me tell you something. The first time you have your optic go down due to freezing up when you are 7 miles from the pickup... you will wish you had something else to use. Happened to me when I had a dog hang up around 600yds. I went to dial in on him, and my turret on my pile of shit leupold locked up on me. Granted, it wasn't the right scope for this kind of activity, as it had closed turrets, and was a BDC/moa type scope. I tell you now, that walk back to the truck while passing at least 8-10 good setups pissed me off more than you'll ever know. I haven't purchased a leupold since.

Thusly, this idea has me VERY interested. If I could keep a calibrated optic in my pack... and swap it out and make my sets on the way back to the truck... it would be well worth it.

So lets talk mounts. My experience with larue mounts has been mixed. I've got two spr 1.5 30mm mounts. One holds zero, the other doesn't. It will wander as much as 3moa... which really sucks when trying to shoot a running coyote at 200yds. I bought two of the mounts specifically to see if they did what they advertised. One is on a 24" heavy AR that I use for working over sod puppy towns. That one seems to hold up, although it just sits in the gun rack until I go to use it, and doesn't get transported outside a case. The other, rides around in my truck on a suppressed AR 24/7... and constantly has to be re-zero'd. I elimitated the gun and the optic from the equation, so at this point it can only be the mount. Sometimes its off by 1.5 moa... but most of the time its between 2 and 3moa, and never the same direction. Sometimes it won't shift for a month... other times it will shift 3 times in one week. I can always tell when it has shifted, because I just start missing. I go and throw it on the sandbags and sure as shit, its off. Mind you, this is with the optic staying on the gun... not taking it off and putting it back on once in a while.

I need to swap the mount from my other AR to see if that one does it on this rifle as well.

This is why lowlights post had me paying attention. I'm not sold on the larue mounts as it pertains to the SPR. I can't comment on others as I don't have any.

It would seem that all their QD stuff works the same way, so I would expect the same issues. Or maybe I'm wrong in my thinking.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I'm just so confused by this whole ordeal. How is this worthy of a decision or experimentation? You're carrying a replacement part. This could all be summed up in one sentence: it's a good idea to carry another scope.

Boom.

Now, a technical analysis of which quick detach mount keeps zero is valid, but as a theory or operating procedure? Something is lost on me.

This whole discussion seems about as worthy as debating the merits of carrying a spare tire in your car.

If you can, carry one. If the rifle also has BUIS, great as well. Carry an extra bolt too. Why not. Where's the grand shift in thinking here? I say, if you can find a mount that truly holds zero, stick your main optic on one, stick a backup optic on another one, and now you have hot-swappable optics.

Now, whether or not to carry a <span style="font-style: italic">third</span> scope... that's the topic of my next thread...

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'd like to explore all the options out there regarding this. Namely, we need to define what to expect from the various QD mounts and solutions out there. </div></div>

... I thought it was pretty clear.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Oh, ok, fair enough.

 

[knockemdown]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

In the spirit of remaining objective and adult on the topic, as a predator hunter, I simply cannot justify the need to have any type of backup sighting system in the quest to engage a four legged animal with a rifle for sport...

I'll respectfully leave the discussion of any noted alternative sighting systems to those who actually use them in combat situations where THEIR azz is potentially on the line, not MINE.

Thank you for your service, gentlemen...

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what Forty-One said in his first post....

Guy needs to lay off the pipe...

 

[Blaster4]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I just bring another scope with me to the Matches I shoot. I would not want an ACOG or ELCAN or any little optic...I want another scope. Get a back up Scope...even if it's a smaller scope...more power is more power.

I sight the scope in after using my torque wrench to tighten it down. Once zeroed...it comes off and the main scope gets the same treatment except it stays on. If I'm off a little bit then I will figure that out after the first shot and correct for it.

Respectfully,

--KJ

PS...I have never needed to replace my scope...ever. Hopefully my Irish luck will continue.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what Forty-One said in his first post....

Guy needs to lay off the pipe... </div></div>

I thought my explanatory video demonstrated it perfectly.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Forty-one -

dang ! a thinking man , that is also a fighting man !

what a concept -

very eloquent sir

drive on

 

[banshee sws]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Like Mr. Drake said -

carrying a spare optic to matches or classes -

the boy scouts teach 11 yr olds this stuff , BE PREPARED

don't show up with a freaking $4000 dollar rig and $2500 scope
and when the sako extractor breaks and you don't have a spare, cry and whine , then end up having to borrow a house rifle from the instructors

if you have a spare optic in your ruck, and it never comes out , yeah, your Irish eyes should be smiling , but if you need it , you got it , use it and drive on

but if you don't have one , and your primary optic fails, don't ask for special consideration, and hold up a $1500 per head class, to re-zero your borrowed optic from another attendee or again, a HOUSE optic


NOW -if you are putting rounds down range , and killing booger eaters, and thats your job description ,

(firstly, thank you , for doing what you do !! me and my family thank you sincerely)

carry whatever you need to complete the OP . nuff said

 

[Queequeg]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty one</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You might have an incredible desire to spawn talk of an optic to replace your optic should your optic fail. It makes me think of an optic to use if the optic you use for your optic that failed, fails. Or an optic that you use if the failed optic that you hoped to use for your failed optic that was replacing your failed optic, fails. </div></div>

Waiting for your treatise on time travel and the various conundrums raised by it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big Brother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, whether or not to carry a third scope... that's the topic of my next thread...
</div></div>

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

If Marty McFly goes back with his Police Marksman and shows George what a P4 reticle will look like before its time, it will indeed rip a hole in the space-time continuum. One ragged hole.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

So if he left tomorrow, could he call me now and tell me tonight's powerball number?

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Orkan's so gonna fuckin kill us

 

[jasonk]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orkan's so gonna fuckin kill us

</div></div>

With his main optic or his backup optic....or maybe a BUIS?

 

[BigBrother]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Bam. And scene.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orkan's so gonna fuckin kill us

</div></div>

With his main optic or his backup optic....or maybe a BUIS? </div></div>

Orkan, the mods are here to help you...wait a minute

Josh

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I'm going to setup a test this spring and shoot video with my two larue mounts. I'd like to put that to rest in my mind. They will either work, or they wont.

If I could keep a short dot or something in a larue mount in my pack that returned to zero after clamping it on, that would be about perfect for me.

Since you'd need a wrench to abort the busted optic anyway... has anyone tried the one piece mounts such as the nightforce or JP? I wonder if they'd come back to within 1moa if you torqued them to spec. They'd be damn high on a bolt gun though.

 

[jasonk]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orkan's so gonna fuckin kill us

</div></div>

With his main optic or his backup optic....or maybe a BUIS? </div></div>

Orkan, the mods are here to help you...wait a minute

Josh</div></div>

LOL, I had to give him a little bit of a hard time. I don't care what site you're on, you create a post that outlines the rules of the thread, terms that can't be discussed (BUIS) and the like.....that thread can only go one way = Fail. Fail like the primary optic on my AR in my imaginary battle with zombies and charging lemmings....luckily I'll have a backup BUIS. I can't afford a backup BUOS.

 

[GCMxVeGeTa]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what Forty-One said in his first post....

Guy needs to lay off the pipe... </div></div>

If you figure it out, let me know.

Anyway, the thing that came to mind when reading the thread is a tiny tactical red dot. Like this:

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

The dots don't really give you the long range precision or magnification you'd need for target identification though. Those were designed mainly for competitors looking for a way to rapidly engage a very close target while switching from long range targets right?

 

[Victory]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Us Non-SOF guys would have to buy our own. The ACOGs we have are setup for 5.56 not 7.62x51, thus somewhat defeating the purpose of using the ACOG. I like the Idea, but I am not going to shell out the money from my pocket for a back up, when a BUIS will work.

The argument of not being able to use your BUIS at night is legit, but that is why we have PEQ's. How far do you realistically think you will be able to engage targets with an ACOG and PVS-22 accurately? And this will be after you mount the ACOG and move the PVS-22. I haven't tried, but don't think it would be much further than 300 to 400m. A man sized target can be engaged with the PEQ and nods alone at this range.

Also, if you are limited to this range, why not switch to your M4 that already has an ACOG on it?

All of this depends on the range that is achievable with an ACOG, M110, and PVS-22. I don't have any of this available at my house so maybe Lowlight will chime in. Our Night sights are out of commission right now, and I don't know when we will get range time and them back to accomplish this research. So for now, it's just food for thought.

Andrew

 

[19818119]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I have a Steyr Scout which I use for hunting. It's mounted with either a SWFA 3-9x42 or a Trijicon 1-4x24 depending on where I'm using it. I carry a Aimpoint in my pack should the scope go down, my mount is a cheap leupold QD but the Aimpoint remains zeroed well enough for hunting accuracy out to 100M.

Listening to Rob I think I might take the 3-9x42 as a back up optic for my precision rifle which has a 3.2-17x42 USO. I wish I could afford another USO or better yet two comp rifles mmmm...

I know of other hunters who do the same re the aimpoint.
Rath

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I think that both options are a real valid idea "optic and iron"

I feel that to much thought has been put in to this. the Super Sniper 10x42mm is a known great backup riflescope.

The Sniper team in my old unit had these to replace the M3's on the M-24. After 10 months, two M24's had Super snipers on them, and one M107.

If you run it right you should have no issue.

John

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orkan's so gonna fuckin kill us

</div></div>

With his main optic or his backup optic....or maybe a BUIS? </div></div>

Orkan, the mods are here to help you...wait a minute

Josh</div></div>

LOL, I had to give him a little bit of a hard time. I don't care what site you're on, you create a post that outlines the rules of the thread, terms that can't be discussed (BUIS) and the like.....that thread can only go one way = Fail. Fail like the primary optic on my AR in my imaginary battle with zombies and charging lemmings....luckily I'll have a backup BUIS. I can't afford a backup BUOS. </div></div>

What, the moderator emergency phone doesn't ring everytime Orkan cries out for the moderators to help in a thread?

Orkan, if you've been here for a while and paid attention, this site doesn't do moderator help whenever people cry for it. The Hide is a pretty self regulating forum and has worked for years that way. You complain about ArfCom type folks here, but then you act like ArfCom folk and want moderator input on threads-that's kinda confusing.

If one of your LaRue mounts has 3moa play in it, it needs adjustment or is just broke. If its the latter send it back and Mark will take care of it (if you haven't burned that bridge by your commenting in "the other" thread already-which I doubt, because Mark will probably stand behind his product anyway).

I'm with Drake on this one-I carry a cutoff box wrench in my kit, and a backup scope if its important. All my scopes return to zero within about a half minute if they are retightened to finger tight plus 1/4 turn. If 1/4-1/2 moa makes you miss a shot on a hunt, then I guess the mount is an easy excuse for what probably was a miss to begin with.

 

[Impact]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

2 is one and 1 is 0..nuff said.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I can chime in briefly about a test we did with a unit that had 24s and didn't use them because they felt the LA-5/PEQ was sufficient at night for their type work. So here is the deal:

20 guys at 100 yards with M4s, 19 guys using a laser with NODs and 1 guys with the ACOG and 24. We had full 18X30 targets at 100, paper so we could count the hits.

The average guy of the 19 scored at most 12 hits on paper, the guy with the ACOG and the NV got 20 for 20, it was a bright and shining example of what a magnified optic can do, compared to a laser shot off the hip with NODs.

Now, take the Iron Sighted romance and look at the qualifications by most in a line unit. How many have to requal or even go UNQ failing to qualify ? Recently we went to NTC with a unit and the sniper flat deck range at Fort Irwin is right next to the M16 qualification range, which was 25m. It was a royal, all day affair watching that cluster fuck as they tried to qualify the unit there... the scores coming out over the loud speaker was laughable at best.

Few people have a passion for marksmanship, if you are one consider yourself a rare breed, because most in the military can careless. The BUIS are not up par regardless of what the vocal few think, and in many cases, even in the sniper cells they are ignored --- sure they carry spare scopes, but not to the field, they are tossed in the hard cases where they stay, and in some cases are broken themselves. We see it every single class, we have to remove scopes to replace broken ones. Hell some new guys will even shoot scopes with the eye relief off because they don't want to move them or say anything. We make we set people up correctly because we know they wont.

I think the idea has merit, especially with Snipers/DMs, line guys can use their BUIS because chances are it won't matter either way, but for our better guys, well, BUIS are not up to the task.

 

[Victory]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Hey lowlight, how far do you think you can accurately engage targets with the ACOG NV combo? I have never used them in that combo.

Would it be worth making the switch to the ACOG, or just using your M4 already set up?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

We shoot every class with NV out to 600yds, inside 400m is the optimal distance, 600 yards is under perfect conditions with the M4. We have gone further with larger rifles.

We see a variety of sights on M4s, between Aimpoint and ACOG, as well some EoTechs, but they tend to be fewer and fewer because with so much use the batteries destroy the units internally.

This week with the guys we are working with, they shot our drill "moving chaos" last night with no lights on the course of any kind. We used one guy to help with the flood from an LA-5, the primary shooter engaged targets from 220 yards to 545 yards, and those were nothing larger than a 10"X18" plate at 545, the moving target at 400 and the targets at 220 and 310 were 9X15" hits were plentiful. <span style="font-style: italic">(these guys are using a variety of weapons, as small as SPRs but no M4s, mostly Mk11 and Mk13.)</span>

 

[Victory]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Was the shooting done with PVS14's or with the PVS22's?

I see a lot of merit in the ACOG change out, but don't know if it would be feasible to change optics instead of just switching weapons all together in a shit is hitting the fan situation.

If targets are within 600m, going to your M4 with an ACOG on just seems to be the more logical move. If the targets were further than that, and your primary optic went down, going to the ACOG doesn't really make sense to me.

I guess next time we get to the range, we will have to try some different stuff and see what works in this situation.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Which shooting, yesterday or the test ?

during the test it was M4/24/ACOG -- last night 22s, 24s, & 26s.

 

[Chiller]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Us Non-SOF guys would have to buy our own. The ACOGs we have are setup for 5.56 not 7.62x51, thus somewhat defeating the purpose of using the ACOG. I like the Idea, but I am not going to shell out the money from my pocket for a back up, when a BUIS will work.

The argument of not being able to use your BUIS at night is legit, but that is why we have PEQ's. How far do you realistically think you will be able to engage targets with an ACOG and PVS-22 accurately? And this will be after you mount the ACOG and move the PVS-22. I haven't tried, but don't think it would be much further than 300 to 400m. A man sized target can be engaged with the PEQ and nods alone at this range.

Also, if you are limited to this range, why not switch to your M4 that already has an ACOG on it?

All of this depends on the range that is achievable with an ACOG, M110, and PVS-22. I don't have any of this available at my house so maybe Lowlight will chime in. Our Night sights are out of commission right now, and I don't know when we will get range time and them back to accomplish this research. So for now, it's just food for thought.

Andrew </div></div>

YOU have a ruler in the ACOG....why not map it and use it?

 

[Victory]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

LL: I was asking about the moving chaos drill, thanks for the answers.

Chiller: We could, but once again the question of wether going to your M4 would be a more viable option. If the optic goes down during a firefight, the answer in my mind would be to grab your M4, and continue to fight instead of pulling the scope off, putting the ACOG on, and then moving your NVD. Grabbing your M4 that is already set up, and getting back into the fight would be the option with the highest survivability rate in my mind. At the ranges that could be engaged with the ACOG on I don't see that large of a benefit with the M24 or M110 over the M4. If the M107 went down and the benefits of the .50 were still needed(IE hard targets), then the switch to the ACOG on it would be made.

If the optic went down in a non-emergency situation, why not put the replacement scope on? If the back up scope is in a box somewhere and not in one of the other team members assault packs, then they failed at their PCC's and PCI's.

Im still brainstorming this over. Thanks for the replies guys.

 

[TAZ]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

I have seen it mentioned numerous times that we need to use wrenches to abort the primary optic. I am not getting that part of the equation. One of the requirements that we talk about is the repeat to zero of the secondary optic. The assumption I am making is that if we identify a QD mounting mechanism, be it GDI, LaRue, ADM, BillyJoe Bob's Machine Shop... whoever it will also be rugged. We are not suggesting that we carry a secondary optic and use a fragile, yet somehow very repeatable mount to get back into a fight, are we? Just look at the mount that LL suggested, the GDI. Accepted by the USMC for use on standard issue rifles. Knowing how USMC tests stuff they made sure that the mount and optic can stand up to the lowest common denominator doing the stupidest thing to the system. So now we have access to a rugged repeatable mount that can be used on both primary and secondary optic and the swap is much more efficient. Not only that, but you can have access to various primary optics if you need.

In all honesty, I believe that the mount is what makes this system work and if you identify one that meets the needs for repeatability and ruggedness you can adapt it to meet whatever mission needs you encounter.

 

[Arch]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Crazy. One guy showing a Doctor reddot and others discussing pipes, just because Orkan wants to kill a coyote.

It seems to have gone from backups needed in freezing weather to CQB add-on pictures to platoon attacks using NV. Are that many cops purchasing GIII NV and STORM's. Hunters even? Doing night time platoon attacks? It gets me confused.

I really don't get it either. The wrench is from old-school thinking that made it an NJP offense for a sniper to take his scope off. I have a QD mount on my bolt gun and another on my carbine. Have for over 5 years. Guys train in close and in cover/support positions on same mission. Guys that have them can switch optics. Have been for years. Sharpshooters should also consider with it the ability to adjust their look so as to move with others and not look like a long range shooter. Not all the time is spent on ranges.

I think it is the SHOOTER that makes the system work, but not everyone can illuminate the night so iron is definitely romance at that point. Or ID targets, making magnification key, which makes a mount key, and repeatability essential. So, the question might boil down to what capabilities are required in terms of durability (endless list) and repeatability. And capabilities need defined in great detail.

Maybe 3 threads:
-Arguments for and against the backup optic
-repeatability standard
-how many optics does Orkan need to kill a coyote

 

[orkan]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oliver W Douglas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-how many optics does Orkan need to kill a coyote </div></div>

4.

1 set of binocs to scan for the coyotes.
1 to keep on the rifle.
1 to keep in my pack in case the one on the rifle fails.
1 to take a picture of the dead coyotes.

 

[Arch]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4.
1 set of binocs to scan for the coyotes.
1 to keep on the rifle.
1 to keep in my pack in case the one on the rifle fails.
1 to take a picture of the dead coyotes. </div></div>
I really like this solution to the problem.

 

[Victory]

Re: BUOS - Back Up Optical Sight

Why is anyone even talking about this in a hunting situation?

Snipershide.com... not longrangehunter.com