I seem to recall calling him a troll and a cunt before it was popular lol...
-Alex
- Thread starter THEIS
- Start date
-Alex
Costs are always a part of all R&D projects. Even if it becomes expensive, i like the idea of using stronger alloys and better designs.
Whether Sig Sauer, US Army ngsw system and elr cartridges such as 416 colossus, the trend is moving to higher operating pressure.
On the subject of 2 and 3 piece cases.
This technology isn't as new as some people think.
Question for you, how much safety margin would you like to have for an action that operates at 90000 psi?
For a example using 90
90 plus proof (20-25% increase)
That’s, 120 for a proof number
Then I personally wanted 50% over proof pressure at a minimum as a starting point.
Original minimum targets on hoplite products were 190-200k no lug set back etc.
That’s why some materials had to change.
Most any action will handle overpressure and not grenade but the ability of the action to handle it and not need replacement or gunsmith work was important for me before I got involved.
I was a gunsmith for 28 years and i can tell you. What most call set back is extend use causing ware in order to cause setback you have to have major case failure causing tennon and shank expansion . I have done extensive testing on the 700 footprints pressure testing with highly polished chambers running a 308 winchester with compressed loads of red dot and 200 grain bullets have even slugged bores and fired rounds and have yet to see lugs sheared or even set back . have had nose cone blown off and tennon expansion but never setback or cracked lugs
I don’t understand…
Every time I post you keep trying to prove me wrong
I am only giving information that I paid for through several accredited agencies
One of them being NTS, which happens to test for the military and NASA.
While you may have observed other findings which could also be correct, that doesn’t mean mine are wrong.
Let’s not confuse people, no matter what the material…when there is enough pressure there will be compression past the material elasticity.
You do not need to cycle the bolt more than once when loading with a over pressure cartridge to possibly compress either bolt or action lugs…possibly both.
Every time I post you keep trying to prove me wrong
I am only giving information that I paid for through several accredited agencies
One of them being NTS, which happens to test for the military and NASA.
While you may have observed other findings which could also be correct, that doesn’t mean mine are wrong.
Let’s not confuse people, no matter what the material…when there is enough pressure there will be compression past the material elasticity.
You do not need to cycle the bolt more than once when loading with a over pressure cartridge to possibly compress either bolt or action lugs…possibly both.
@brianf ,Of course, safety margins are important but I think as long as the operating pressure is 90000-10000 psi plus 30000 psi safety margin, that's fine.
Honestly, all the pressure data that can be found on the Internet... I do not believe in most of the data. It is funny that on forums guys talking about 170k up to 300K psi pressure proof. Some data based on ohh quickload told me the shot was around 250000 psi. The trajectory of the action will show you when you have reached true 250000 psi. LOL
The higher the regular operating pressure, the harder it is to get 30-50% over proof. There are limits even for super alloys.
Has anyone ever tested a BAT or weatherby action up to 200000+ psi? (CAUGHT ON CAMERA) If yes, I do like to see it. I think no matter what manufacturer, no matter what action, i can't believe that any action can withstand true 200000+ psi. I found a lot of information but unfortunately all unverified.
BAT 170k psi without failure.
Mauser 98 168k psi without failure.
Rem700 175k psi without failure.
Weatherby 250k psi without failure.
Honestly, all the pressure data that can be found on the Internet... I do not believe in most of the data. It is funny that on forums guys talking about 170k up to 300K psi pressure proof. Some data based on ohh quickload told me the shot was around 250000 psi. The trajectory of the action will show you when you have reached true 250000 psi. LOL
The higher the regular operating pressure, the harder it is to get 30-50% over proof. There are limits even for super alloys.
Has anyone ever tested a BAT or weatherby action up to 200000+ psi? (CAUGHT ON CAMERA) If yes, I do like to see it. I think no matter what manufacturer, no matter what action, i can't believe that any action can withstand true 200000+ psi. I found a lot of information but unfortunately all unverified.
BAT 170k psi without failure.
Mauser 98 168k psi without failure.
Rem700 175k psi without failure.
Weatherby 250k psi without failure.
Both mark 5 weatherby actions tested in the remington plant failed stripped all the luge off and broke the bolt handles off and ejected the bolts at 125,000 psi the weatherby mark v actions are junk and very weak . This test was when weatherby challenged remington claiming the mark v was stronger. Roy weatherby was present and was part of the test.
I’ve never seen any data published by the actual mfg.
Only “outside” tests
One reason is most likely insurance/liability
Guy blows up a action running a insane pressure load and has quick load or alike say it’s 150k and the action is safe for 151k etc. that’s a lawsuit that’s hard to win.
With hoplite we were going to sell high pressure ammo, but only sell the cartridge /rifle which was bought from us.
If you bought X cartridge from us but they had it rebarreled to a different cartridge we would not sell you HP ammo.
Way to many people think they know what they are talking about, yet dint have the slightest idea what’s actually going on inside. ….just look at the reloading section and the speeds some guys are running yet they think they are below sammi max.
Additionally quickload isn’t that accurate when you get into “proof” territory. There is only so much a algorithm can do when you are working outside it’s original scope. There was never a need for most reloading programs to function accurately that high, as the firearms and components aren’t readily available/mainstream.
It may work for one cartridge but but be inaccurate for another etc
Quick load can be very accurate if you trick the system to work properly but it lies very often and its way off on non sammi stuff . I understand wanting safety margins wise choice. but you cant protect retards if people would just learn pressure ladders there would never be issues. Going down the high pressure rabbit hole can be risky. Thats one of the reasons i dont allow others to obtain my reamers or cartridges as loading is bad enough but poor gunsmithing is much worse. This is the other reason why we have non standard rim diamiters forcing the use of our actions so the cartridges cant be used on inferior actions not designed for our pressures the other safety precautions is our cartridges cant be formed or fireformed from other sammi cases as they have no parents.
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No matter which action and which manufacturer. No manufacturer is to blame when stupid people fail to reload properly.
I understand the idea, but as I said you are not responsible for what people end up doing. You can make an incredibly strong action, but you can't control what people in the reloading room are going to do.
I understand the idea, but as I said you are not responsible for what people end up doing. You can make an incredibly strong action, but you can't control what people in the reloading room are going to do.
Wont keep people from going after manufactors
Maybe I should say it more clearly, sometimes things getting lost in translation.
For example, let's say i got action xy,
barrel chambered in cartridge xy, i know with given cartridge/action, i can run at xy pressure max. So if I load at my own risk so hot that i am far above max pressure and the action fails. Who is to blame then?
In this case, the manufacturer is not to blame.
For example, let's say i got action xy,
barrel chambered in cartridge xy, i know with given cartridge/action, i can run at xy pressure max. So if I load at my own risk so hot that i am far above max pressure and the action fails. Who is to blame then?
In this case, the manufacturer is not to blame.
Of it were only that easy …
Victims can sue the mfg of the weapon that killed their “kid/wife/family”.
Our insurance policy costs more because I wanted that protection.
I know of a action that let go (bolt lugs) all messed up.
the action mfg wasn’t blaming the mfg of another component but “the action was fine”
When the other component guy asked for specs and QC paperwork they said no
Then the other component guy said let’s send it out because I think you action wasn’t heat treated properly…comms went dead.
I dint know how it ended up (I actually forget) but don’t think anyone is your friend when there is a chance to get money.
Both parties are well known names, this isn’t a one off basement action or part.
You are 100% correct this kind of stuff happens all the time. Ignorant people, poor quality products, human error, and lawyers. 1 money and greed is involved all kinds of things happen. Seldom is it fair are right. I am all about pushing boundaries however however there are risk factors those factors you have control over to a certain extent by mitigating possible unforeseen failures
And thus why designing to a higher failure pressure is a good idea for anticipated higher pressure cartridges.
The problem with this industry everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want something new and different, they want something strong and foolproof, they want something small and lightweight, and they want high performance , and they want it affordable . the problem is many of these things do not go together and should not.
Perhaps it's just too easy to sue a manufacturer in US....
@brianf,
Where I am, lawsuits don't work so easily. For example, you could sell high pressure factory ammo to anyone who has a permit. As long as you print on the ammo box safety advice " High pressure ammo, only for use in action xy" You are fine. No lawsuit would be possible if someone puts the ammo in the wrong chamber and/or uses a wrong action.
@badassgunworks,
For example, you could sell me any reamer you want. It's even 10 times less complicated than ammo. As long as you give me the right safety advice. You would be fine. Let's say you sell me reamers in a box. Print on the box " +p reamers, use at your own risk" for example, i use the reamers and at the end of the day my action detonates. Let's say i would try to sue you...
In this case the lawsuit will never work, at least not at my Location. The court would laugh at me.
In this case, i have to prove to the court.
1. Was the gunsmith work properly.
2. Was my reloading properly.
3. Was the round not loaded way too hot etc.
Almost no chance to get you sued. Because you printed on the box "use at your own risk"
Don't get me wrong, it's just an example. I would never sue you.
Even if I use a BAT, Pierce or Banard action and shooting hand loads (no factory ammo).
If the action fails totally it's my problem.
Because I can never prove to the court that the cartridge that caused the detonation was not loaded way too hot. At the end of the day I have to prove to court,that I didn't accidentally load 270 grain vv n530 in a 50bmg case or what ever (for example).
A hugh Note at the end.
If someone buys a new rifle/action that fails when using factory ammunition. Then the manufacturer is 100% to blame and to sue.
That's my opinion.
I’d say that’s a reasonable assessment of things.
However, as a manufacturer that actually cares about the products I sell and people that are customers, one would want to work hard to prevent all but the most gregarious attempt to grenade the action/product. If the market is a specific type of customer willing to pay for the level of product you make and your business model is based upon that, it makes sense.
However, as a manufacturer that actually cares about the products I sell and people that are customers, one would want to work hard to prevent all but the most gregarious attempt to grenade the action/product. If the market is a specific type of customer willing to pay for the level of product you make and your business model is based upon that, it makes sense.
Agreed but it is a smaller market and lots of education is required in that marketing.
understanding what the masses want and producing a better mouse trap and making a little bit of somthing for every one is possable .
One thing i never understood is why no one makes a longer then normal short action and longer then normal long action with mags and bottom metal no one seems to do a real good job of that
Actually that isn’t correct (which hurts the brain) …this industry is nuts.
A company like gunwerks
Actions are decent
Stocks are nice
They put together a package and charge 12-13k for 5-6k$ package at most.
Yet they are back ordered and growing leaps and bounds.
The market has so many segments yet none of they are segregated or able to be targeted properly.
And many of those segments just want to drop big money and buy turnkey
Gunworks primary market is hunting the largest of the rifle build market. And its marketed well with tv out door channel. There finished product is not that great not 12,000 worth
Even before they got on tv they found the clientele (by mistake actually)
They were smart enough to take advantage of it
Good for them
Aaron actually came from best of the west and direct dial yards etched scopes came from leupold. Hunting market is big money
Highly questionable considering the pressure that would be needed to run a very overbore cartridge with that case volume to those velocities. Blackwater was wishing for 3500 fps a much lighter bullet .. and my understanding is it has not been confermed that it can even produce the 3500 fps . Ill believe it when it shows up at a elr match. Thats all i have to say about that.
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I would be careful to call it questionable...
@brianf It does not always necessarily need 3-piece cases for higher pressure.
@badassgunworks be careful too, do we know what the powder charge was or
do we know what powder it was? No
maybe lou got much slower powder from Vihtavuori. Maybe something experimental through good relations with the manufacturer or maybe not... who really knows....
So even if it is off topic, all the discussed stuff if and how you can accelerate bullet xy to 4000 fps was already tested a very very long time ago.
Frankford Arsenal and U.S. Military
did a lot of testing around 1940-1980.
Cartridges such as .50 HV, .50 US, .60 US and .60/.50. etc.
Guess what... even .50 cal projectiles at 3900+ fps is a real thing. Im not talking about 350 grain light weight bullets. Some old documents from Frankford arsenal and Franklin institut are over 600 pages long and I haven't finished reading all of them yet. I don't think all this R&D data is lying to me but anyway. I wouldn't consider 4000 fps with 415 grain bullets to be 100% unrealistic.
If anyone asks now why so many developments of HV cartridges never made it into service. One of the reasons
,when World War II and later the Cold War ended, there was no longer a need for such cartridges and throat erosion was a major issue with those cartridges.
@brianf It does not always necessarily need 3-piece cases for higher pressure.
@badassgunworks be careful too, do we know what the powder charge was or
do we know what powder it was? No
maybe lou got much slower powder from Vihtavuori. Maybe something experimental through good relations with the manufacturer or maybe not... who really knows....
So even if it is off topic, all the discussed stuff if and how you can accelerate bullet xy to 4000 fps was already tested a very very long time ago.
Frankford Arsenal and U.S. Military
did a lot of testing around 1940-1980.
Cartridges such as .50 HV, .50 US, .60 US and .60/.50. etc.
Guess what... even .50 cal projectiles at 3900+ fps is a real thing. Im not talking about 350 grain light weight bullets. Some old documents from Frankford arsenal and Franklin institut are over 600 pages long and I haven't finished reading all of them yet. I don't think all this R&D data is lying to me but anyway. I wouldn't consider 4000 fps with 415 grain bullets to be 100% unrealistic.
If anyone asks now why so many developments of HV cartridges never made it into service. One of the reasons
,when World War II and later the Cold War ended, there was no longer a need for such cartridges and throat erosion was a major issue with those cartridges.
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There were a bunch of tests in the late 70’s too, those were interesting to read.
Monolithic cases can be had (we had stainless 3D printed) but the original BWA cases for that design were 2 piece.
At the time BWA didn’t have a “Hp brass” case. That was about 2 years ago and since then the original owner is pretty much gone so things may have changed as well.
I hate not knowing info
Monolithic cases can be had (we had stainless 3D printed) but the original BWA cases for that design were 2 piece.
At the time BWA didn’t have a “Hp brass” case. That was about 2 years ago and since then the original owner is pretty much gone so things may have changed as well.
I hate not knowing info
@brianf
Data are sometimes very difficult to find, especially because there was no internet 1940-1970 lol. Some people still have old books and old reports that they sometimes put online and some very old reports are also photographed and published. Google is useful to find such things. Sometimes it's like clicking on 10 different pages until you find the right one.
I don't know if I'm allowed to go so far off topic here.
Many different cartridges were developed and tested from roughly 1940 to 1980.
Even pre-engraved projectile were developed. I don't want to say that all of these developments were successful, but insanely high velocities were achieved with .50 and .60 caliber cartridges.
I don't say you and badassgunworks are wrong, 4000 fps sounds very high the first time you hear it, no matter if 10x100 or 50 cal. but I would not say it is impossible.
With reference to lou's 10x100, I don't know what powder he uses, I don't know what bullets, i don't know his powder charge and I don't know his reamer print. That's exactly why I'm careful to say his information is wrong or right.
Data are sometimes very difficult to find, especially because there was no internet 1940-1970 lol. Some people still have old books and old reports that they sometimes put online and some very old reports are also photographed and published. Google is useful to find such things. Sometimes it's like clicking on 10 different pages until you find the right one.
I don't know if I'm allowed to go so far off topic here.
Many different cartridges were developed and tested from roughly 1940 to 1980.
Even pre-engraved projectile were developed. I don't want to say that all of these developments were successful, but insanely high velocities were achieved with .50 and .60 caliber cartridges.
I don't say you and badassgunworks are wrong, 4000 fps sounds very high the first time you hear it, no matter if 10x100 or 50 cal. but I would not say it is impossible.
With reference to lou's 10x100, I don't know what powder he uses, I don't know what bullets, i don't know his powder charge and I don't know his reamer print. That's exactly why I'm careful to say his information is wrong or right.
4000fps is not that difficult to achieve if that's what you are after. Over 20 years ago I developed a load for my 308win with a 20in barrel that averaged 3980fps. This load was sub moa (10 shot group) and no pressure signs.
Perhaps wirh a accelerator round 55 grain bullet but thats a huge difference pushing a 400 +grain bullet
It wasn't an accelerator round. It was a 71gr jacked round nose. Still impressive speeds with that short of a barrel.
A 10mmx100mm would likely have 4 or 5 times the powder capacity of a 308win and have a significantly longer barrel.
Ill explain the issues with the idea as i see it. If you take a 50 bmg case neck it down to 416 and shoot a 500 grain bullet max load volume using available bmg powder you end up with pressure signs at about at 220 grains of powder and the only reason you can use that much volume is due to low case fill. if you run any lower then 185 grains you have ignition Issues. Max velocity is about 3200 fps +or - a few feet per second. Depending on barrel length. Now to the 10x100 issue. The one in the photo from lou brass is made by Rcc it will have way less capacity then a standard bmg case atempting to run higher pressure thicker case head over .600 thick side walls will be way thicker then normal and thats good considering there is no way to use the full volume of a bmg case necked down to.408. Lets look a facts known facts . If he is using vv20n29 there is no way to be using more then 225 grains of powder too much pressure will be produced due to over bore pressures. From bore diamiter. Lets guess that some how he obtained way slower powder to use more powder to have a longer duration if so he would need a 50 or 60 " barrel to obtain the claimed velocity and his barrel is not that long. Facts dont line up... we no limits if pressure with c260 c272 alloys we know limits with said action. We know limits of optimal powders with said barrel lengths. At X resistance due to bullet weight ,diamiter and surface. It dont see it happening sorry guys. I have been doing this stuff pushing the
Limits of design in cartridge designs for many many years. There are laws of physics at play here that are limited by capacity in relation to bore diamiters that are controlled pressure limits.
Sorry it does not work that way its a relationship between volume, bore diamiter, burn rate and resistance.
And we have not even spoken about the fact that most powders wont even reach limits that are needed to run 4000 fps with a 400 grain bullet in a .408 with out detonating. You would need well over 125,000 psi to achieve said velocities you guys dont believe me run a custom quick load program.
@oneshot.onehit was running the 416 Warner. That’s close to a 50 down to a 416. Can’t remember the speeds he was getting though
We run the Manners 416MCS using a blend of powder that’s not commercially available at faster speeds that @badassgunworks stated above. It’s a necked down 50bmg basically. It’s definitely possible
Please do explain... what velocity and what grain weight bullet and how many grains of powder?? You say its possable. Its not... in case you dont understand necking down to 408 boost pressures way up considerable higher then necking to 416
416 warner is about 3250 fps and its shortened by a fair amount
What was the 416 Garrett running he was only able to run about 215 to 220 grain before he ran into serious extraction issues what about 3250- 3300 fps ? He setteled in on about 190 to 195 grains of powder correct ? You guys forget a bmg case has a useable volume of about 250 plus grains and about 275 grains to case mouth .
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Has anyone heard of the 50 HV? (12.7x120mm) based on 20mm HS 404 case? Tested and manufactured in the 1940's by Frankford arsenal?
I don't want to search through thousands of old pdf documents... but I will try to get verifiable data.
Here is another image on the subject of muzzle velocity.
@NightStash,
what do you get out of your 416 ? (fps)
I don't want to search through thousands of old pdf documents... but I will try to get verifiable data.
Here is another image on the subject of muzzle velocity.
@NightStash,
what do you get out of your 416 ? (fps)
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According to the dayly
According to the Daily Bulletin article the 416 from manners is shooting a 550 grain bullet just over 3,100 ft per second
Did you miss the fact they were using 615 grains of powder?
With a large bore diamiter with slower then normal powder
With super long barrels and light bullets
The Garrett was pretty much a 416 version of the 460 and it still had too much useable volume
Well that was in 2018 and also had to beat the bolt open with a hammer lol. It’s now shooting a 500gr bullet and using the powder that’s unavailable.
