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Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

R

roblewis999

Private
Minuteman
Sep 29, 2009
47
0
43
Beach in NC
#1
(Considering target effect/hunting + humane shooting)

This was partially spurned by the sticky post of Bohem et al “Caliber Choices–Comparisons and Applications”, and the post(s) that talked about humane hunting vs. distance and caliber.

I want a long distance rifle and have learned from this site that .308 is no longer the best option. I read the article comparing the .260rem, 6.5*47lapua, and the 6.5creedmor; an excellent article, but it contains no info about the rounds affect on target. As soon as I made up my mind on a 260rem I stumbled across a post on the 284win & 7mm-08…back to square one.

I will be moving to Lake Havasu, AZ ~6months. From the initial recon of the site it looks as though I will be able to shoot at distances limited only by my pocketbook and skill. My primary targets will be; rocks, ground varmints, coyotes, and bigger rocks. Once I have found a great spot I intend to set up a semi-permanent hide and steel as far as the scope can see.

Problem- I want a sniping round that has good effect on target at range. <span style="text-decoration: underline">The potential candidates are .260rem, 284win, and the 7mm-08</span>. I want to use the 223 and 308 to bookend the data to give it some validity (perhaps with the 338lm a bit farther to the right).

My primary considerations for a caliber are; effect on target at range, ability to get/manufacture ammo, recoil, service life of components, cost.

I will purchase the equipment and make my first foray into reloading after I get settled in - this is why I am not inquiring about the bigger calibers. I need something affordable for the first year.

Before we go any further – is there a program that will spit out calculations of energy in ft-lbs based on bullet weight, speed of travel, distance traveled, etc?
 
#3
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I like the .260 Rem for a lot of reasons. Even if .260 brass is not available, it can be very easily made from .243 and 7-08.

The .260 has the terminal energy advantage over the .308, and to a lesser degree over the others, as distances increase.

Bullet weights from 95gr HDY V-Max to 129gr and 140gr HDY SST's are both adequate and suitible for the chambering. 120gr Nosler Ballist Tips shoot like lasers and are flatly devastating on varmits, think bisection. Nosler 140 Paritions will anchor most North American large game. HDY 140gr A-Max and SRA 142gr SMKs are premier target bullets for the chambering (I say this from experience in Raton NM) out to and probably beyond 1Km. IMHO shooting <span style="font-style: italic">anything</span> beyond that seriously would require more than just a chambering. 139 Scenars and .243 Laupua brass can be crafted into one helluva match load. H-4350 works for any bullet selection. While probably best from longer barrels and bolt guns, it's also a good round in a DPMS LR260. The .260 is at best advantage in the hands of a handloader, otherwise give the .284 and 7-08 more consideration. If you choose the .260, Rem Core-Lokt is OK for midrange hunting, and Federal also has(had?) a decent loading to use until you can get up to speed with handloads.

Look up 'Pejsa'. His work includes a pretty sophisticated downloadable freeware Excel spreadsheet that I use for ballistic calcs, including terminal energy values.

The .260 may be OK as a first year cartridge. For me it's a lot more than that. I.e., I no longer own any .308 rifles. If I could only have one caliber, etc., it would be a front runner.

Greg
 
#4
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I've probably look at your rifle 20+ times. Seems to have the best value in the section. What does TTT mean though? Since the calibers are so similar would I be ablle to rebarrel/switch barrel to the other calibers mentioned?

Or is this where the 284 & 7mm-08 being a long action comes into play?

What is the difference between 284 and 7mm-08? 284 is a straight 7mm, and the 7mm-08 is a 308 case necked ot tapered to 7mm?
 
#5
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Ability to use components for multiple purposes always makes me happy. (7mm-08 brass for itself and 260)

I was browsing on gunbroker yesterday and was amazed at the plethora of bullet weights/types for the 284 and started to make an excel spreadsheet of all the offerings from all of the manufacturers - almost two pages and quite a few brands to go. As soon as I finish 284 I intend to compile the others as well.

The dpms gas gun is one of the reasons I'm so keen on the 260, from what I have read here it seems that I can not have a semi chambered in 284 or 7mm-08.?

I will never own another 308 either. Carrying 16lb deer guns in the desert soured me on that.

From what I have read it seems like all three will have recoil similar to a 308, yes?

So what range would you feel comfortable shooting varmints/coyotes w/ the 260/284/7mm-08?

My first (and hopefully long) experiences with handloading starts when I get to the new place. I intend to reload 556 one of these calibers, and eventually 338. Pistol too.

TY
 
#6
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

If you are going to shoot varmits, the 260 will be fine. If you are going to shoot big game 338LM is what i woukd shoot.
 
#8
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Your biggest problem with the 284 win is brass availibility, and then barrel life. I'd go with a 260 or 7-08 for what your intent is. Both will get you between 1400-1500yards supersonic on a warm day with the edge going to the 260. As far as the long range ethical shots with either caliber, I would keep it inside 600 yards for these calibers. Thats when the energy really starts to drop off.
 
#9
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I've only been out to AZ 3 times and to be honest I have done virtually no research on what game animals there are out there.

How does one differentiate between small/med/large game animals? Is it based mostly on weight, or are there a number of factors that lead to the classification?

(As you can see I have 0 exp hunting-gone once, saw nothing)
It's going to take me about 12-16 months to buy the 338, optic and whatnot.
 
#10
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

-So paper/steel targets out to 1500 if I can shoot at that level- sounds sufficient to me.

Perhaps I approached this wrong – where can I find a resource that details the appropriate or required energy on target to have the needed effect? I know experienced hunters just know these things, but I don’t have that knowledge. There has to be something that details this right?

(On a side note – how did/does the military ensure our rounds are suitably lethal? Like that new enhanced m855a1 that just came out – do they do anything other than ballistic testing? – surely they have a formula for minimum level of force on target right?)
 
#11
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roblewis999</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps I approached this wrong – where can I find a resource that details the appropriate or required energy on target to have the needed effect? I know experienced hunters just know these things, but I don’t have that knowledge. There has to be something that details this right? </div></div>

http://www.longrangehunting.com/

There will be plenty of opinions on game energy requirements on that forum.
 
#12
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I have a feeling you'll find the ability to get a first round hit on a vital's sized target harder than finding the right cartrige to take that shot. It about shot placement and at extended range that can be tricky. Get the 260 or the like and practice. Once your good at reading the wind to make first round hits the majority of the time (your call) then start moving your ethical kill range out. Untile then, enjoy shooting a long way and practice, and become a better hunter and close the distance to something that better suits your shooting abilitys.

It all comes with time and practice.
 
#15
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roblewis999</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've probably look at your rifle 20+ times. Seems to have the best value in the section. What does TTT mean though? Since the calibers are so similar would I be ablle to rebarrel/switch barrel to the other calibers mentioned?

Or is this where the 284 & 7mm-08 being a long action comes into play?

What is the difference between 284 and 7mm-08? 284 is a straight 7mm, and the 7mm-08 is a 308 case necked ot tapered to 7mm? </div></div>

The ttt is just what I do to bump the post up to the top again.

IMO 284win is better suited in long action for the heavy bullets like 175Gr and 180Gr.It has similar case capacity to the 30-06 family of cases.

260R for the case capacity has a slight edge over 7-08 in velocity/drop but 7-08 hold it's own.

Steve
 
#16
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Out at Raton we saw Mule Deer, Elk, and Pronghorn on a daily basis.

The Mule Deer were very bold and unfearing of humans, coming out and strolling right past us on our porch at the Hunting cabins uphill behind the line of the Tubb Range at Whittington. Pronghorn (they call them antelope but they're really more like a goat) were very wary and could only be seen far off across empty prairie. We had one pronghorn stand its ground in the middle of a road at night, and when we advanced the Suburban slowly, it charged the car. The Elk were moving in sizable herds mainly at night, and can pose a very significant road hazard at night.

I would consider the 129gr SST/.260 to be highly adequate for the Deer and Pronghorn, and would load 140gr Nosler Paritions for the Elk. I would not feel under-gunned for any of these game with a .260, especially when one considers how many Moose have been taken with the very similar 6.5x55 Swede in Europe over the past century and some. 155 and 160gr bullets (including RoundNose) exist for the bigger game, achieving somewhere around 2300-2400fps MV.

Recoil with the .260 (and I suppose, the 7-08) is not insubstantial, but seems subjectively lighter than with the .308/175. Part of the subjective difference is probably the use of nominally lighter weight bullets in the 6.5's. A heavyweight cruise missile (140-ish grains) out of a 6.5 is weight-favorable to a comparatively lightweight (150 grains) bullet out of a .308, and that cruise missile is going to retain its energy far further downrange.

Greg
 
#17
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Most excellent.

Phase II - begin looking at complete guns / parts to build a complete gun.

(Although since I won't be to AZ for 6 months I suppose I might as well just call GAP and let it meet me there.)
 
#18
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Start Phase II by reviewing the rifles featured here. Virtually any of the ones available there in .308 can be rebarreled with a .260 Rem barrel, and little or nothing further need be done to get you up and running. Pac-Nor, Lothar-Walther, and many others sell barrels to order, ready chambered and threaded for user installation on the Savage. This is how I got my 28" barrels.

My rifles began as a pair of pre-Accue-Trigger Savage 10FP's. The have Sharpshooter Supply Recoil Lugs and Competition Triggers, Ken Farrel 20MOA Sloped Bases, Burris Signature 'Zee' Rings, McMillan A3 and A5 stocks, and L-W 28" 1:8" .260 Rem Finished Barrels. The rifle with the A5 now belongs to my shooting partner and has been rebarrelled/rebolted for .223 Rem. My rifle has been used regularly for 1000yd F Class Comp.

Greg
 
#19
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

In AZ there are only a few animals you can get drawn for every year. Deer mule and coues, bear, pigs. My buddies and I all shoot 30 cal guns and have no problems. You don't need a lot of knock down power just something that cuts through the wind. It is always windy here at least in the southern part of the state.
 
#20
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

+1 vote for the 6.5 Creedmoor. It just became SAAMI accepted so there will be more options from other manufacturers. You should get a little better barrel life due to the steep shoulder angle. I plan on swapping my .308 barrel out for this caliber when the time comes.

Also, check out the Aug 2010 Shooting Times article "Handloading the 6.5 Creedmoor":

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_creedmoor_201008/index.html
 
#21
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: couesnut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... You don't need a lot of knock down power just something that cuts through the wind. It is always windy here at least in the southern part of the state.
</div></div>

Few of us on here playing around with the Hornady 208's in 308. Although MV is low, they are keeping supersonic at range and needing less windage
 
#22
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I appreciate all the info and will begin reviewing it seriously this weekend.

It is finals week right now and I have to go back to bashing my head agaisnt a wall. I mean writing papers.
 
#23
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I did carry a bolt gun in the service, but really prefer gas guns. I am attracted to the price of a savage with a nice long match barrel, but feel that I should save my money and get a 260 barrel for the DTA I am drooling over and intend to acquire at some point.

APA was recommended, as is GAP. I have about 6 months before I can shoot it anyway, so waiting for it to be built isn't a deal breaker. I wa also thinking about accuracy systems international.
 
#24
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Hypertex, that is the bullet I'm shooting out of my 300 win. The problem we were having with the 308 was keeping the velocity up we shot one deer I believe it was around 850 yards. We dug the bullets out of the deer and they looked like they were right out of the box. But those weren't the hornady's.
 
#25
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

Of the three the OP mentioned, I'd do a 7-08. With the right bullets and powder the windage is similar to the 6.5's but the kinetic energy is up there.

If going for humane kills on animals bigger than a coyote at distance, step up to a .30 or 7mm magnum chambering....
 
#26
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: couesnut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hypertex, that is the bullet I'm shooting out of my 300 win. The problem we were having with the 308 was keeping the velocity up we shot one deer I believe it was around 850 yards. We dug the bullets out of the deer and they looked like they were right out of the box. But those weren't the hornady's. </div></div>

I can get to my loads to about 1250fps @ 1000yds bit that is the limit pretty much
 
#29
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I used to live in LHC. My first big game rifle happened to be a .280 Rem.I bought it in Donkey Acres. There are mule deer, elk, pronghorn, javelina....all within a reasonable drive from Havasu.

I would choose a 7mm round for your build-up...ie. 7mmRM, 7wsm,...
 
#30
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I have been browsing through the local sporting goods stores -mostly the chain store "Dick's" here in eastern NC. Also the other stores that sell ammo (Wally-world, etc). I can find .243, .280, .308, and usually 7mm rem mag. This is nice to see, however my idea wasn't to buy either off the shelf ammo or even match ammo (often). I intended to reload.

I also wanted the undecided caliber to be fired from a semi-auto platform. I found these calibers listed at;
accuracysystemsinc.com / ar-10-rifles.com/index.php

I have also learned that many of the good shops can chamber in these calibers. I guess it's come down to crunching the numbers on barrel life, cost of ammmo (components to build ammo). Those might be disadvantages to the round. From what I have learned here it seems like these will be advantages. BC, range, retained stopping power.

Rookie question - I see .280 ammo - is that what I use in a 7mm, or a 7mm08? Is 7mm reg mag the same as 7mm-08?
 
#32
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

.280 Rem is basically a 30-06 necked down to 7mm. I said basically.
7mm-08....308win parent to 7mm neck.
I forgot the AZ. laws regarding semi-auto hunting. If you just want to shoot targets then look at a .243 or .260.

7mmRm is a belted long action cartridge. The 7mm-08 will work in a short action, uses about 1/3 less powder, still effective and efficient.
7mm refers to a .284" diameter bullet. Weights usually run from 139gr. to 175gr.
 
#33
Re: Caliber for long distance AZ shooting/hunting

I still want to stuff this into a SA frame so 7mm mag is out.

So I can fire .284 diameter bullets from either a .308 case (making it a 7mm-08) or from a 30-06 case (making it a ? 7mm-06? or do we just call it .280 / .284 then, or ?) Does either of these have a clear advantage over the other?

I have read extensively on this site, and have seen posts that say the 7mm-08 retains significantly more energy, and also that the .260 and 7mm-08 are never very far apart. It doesn't seem like both of those statements could be true at the same time. What am I missing here?

I know there are variables here (bullet weight, fps namely) can both those statements be true?
 
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