Carrying condition 0 with modern equipment?

TurboTrout

TurboTrout

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Oct 30, 2020
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#1
These days with virtually all modern pistols having a trigger block that will not allow a primer strike unless the trigger is pulled via different types of internal trigger linked safety features….

Aside from more safeties more better, with a proper holster and trigger control is there any reason not to carry a modern hammer fire DA/SA condition 0?
 
#6
Loaded or NOT. The Primary Safety on ANY firearm is muzzle direction!

Any other mechanical safety device(s) is Extra.

A tax payer sponsored professional Dancing out of control with his Muzzle Direction out of control when he picked up the pistol with his finger inside the trigger guard. GrassHopper, no further teachings necessary.



Screen Shot 2022-06-27 at 6.43.31 PM.png
 
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#7
pineoak said:
I know a PD firearms trainer that runs his Sig DA/SA with the hammer back in the holster (no manual safety). Safariland holster I believe.

"It's no different than a Glock."
Click to expand...

That was my thought, in a modern DA/SA with all the fancy internal drop safe stuff, carrying it hammer back safety off doesn’t seem different than just carrying a Glock from a safety standpoint, at least as far as I can tell so far
 
#8
strikeeagle1 said:
Loaded or NOT. The Primary Safety on ANY firearm is muzzle direction!

Any other mechanical safety device(s) is Extra.

A tax payer sponsored professional Dancing out of control with his muzzle direction out of control. No further teachings necessary.

Click to expand...


Putting his bugger hook on the bang switch didn’t help ether.

From a movie and lots of drama and all, but so very true



But yeah, how is a modern DA/SA on condition 0 any different than how most everyone rolls with their glocks?
 
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#9
You can get a better first round trigger pull by getting a better first round trigger pull.
If you can't do that on your gun, you can do it by getting a better gun. ;)

Glocks and similar guns aren't at full cock all the time like SA or DA/SA gun.



Anecdotal, but I know a feller who watched a gun hit the blacktop and go off, a design that really really shouldn't have been able to! Trust nothing. lol
 
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#11
cas6969 said:
You can get a better first round trigger pull by getting a better first round trigger pull.
If you can't do that on your gun, you can do it by getting a better gun. ;)
Click to expand...

It’s just a fact, in SA mode it’s far better, especially as someone who normally runs 1911/2011s. With enough training I could be good with a beat to shit hipoint too, but why not invest that time in being a better shot with better equipment, or in this case a “better organized office” 🤷‍♂️

I just trying to figure out if there is any benefit to carrying hammer down on a modern DA/SA, other than belt and suspenders thinking when it comes to safety. ie is condition 0 on the DA/SA any less safe than a cocked G19 with a round in the chamber?
 
#12
strikeeagle1 said:
Loaded or NOT. The Primary Safety on ANY firearm is muzzle direction!

Any other mechanical safety device(s) is Extra.

A tax payer sponsored professional Dancing out of control with his Muzzle Direction out of control when he picked up the pistol with his finger inside the trigger guard. GrassHopper, no further teachings necessary.



View attachment 7900691
Click to expand...

That zogbot should have spent a decade in jail.
 
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#13
TurboTrout said:
It’s just a fact, in SA mode it’s far better, especially as someone who normally runs 1911/2011s. With enough training I could be good with a beat to shit hipoint too, but why not invest that time in being a better shot with better equipment, or in this case a “better organized office” 🤷‍♂️

I just trying to figure out if there is any benefit to carrying hammer down on a modern DA/SA, other than belt and suspenders thinking when it comes to safety. ie is condition 0 on the DA/SA any less safe than a cocked G19 with a round in the chamber?
Click to expand...
It is NOT the same as a Glock.
When a Glock trigger is pull it retracts the striker.
A Glock is Double Action Only.
 
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#14
TurboTrout said:
These days with virtually all modern pistols having a trigger block that will not allow a primer strike unless the trigger is pulled via different types of internal trigger linked safety features….

Aside from more safeties more better, with a proper holster and trigger control is there any reason not to carry a modern hammer fire DA/SA condition 0?
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, the SA trigger pull on a DA/SA pistol when cocked is significantly lighter than on your average non-tuned striker fired pistols.

What you don't want to happen is going bang prematurely when trying to draw under stress, or by accident when holstering / unholstering.
You can see videos of folks shooting themselves in the leg drawing on the range.
Odd things happen during holstering or such.

If you have a manual safety, go ahead and carry it cocked and locked like a 1911 if you so wish.
Otherwise it would be prudent to carry it in DA mode

Something to remember is that unless it is your job to go looking for trouble, chances are you'll carry your gun your whole life and never have to use it in anger. So a bit of extra safety is a good thing because a Bang when you didn't mean to, can mess up your life big time.

In a close quarters, high stress situation, you won't even notice the DA pull and if you have enough time or distance to be worrying about a really good aimed shot, you have enough time to pull the hammer back.
 
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#15
TurboTrout said:
Putting his bugger hook on the bang switch didn’t help ether.

From a movie and lots of drama and all, but so very true



But yeah, how is a modern DA/SA on condition 0 any different than how most everyone rolls with their glocks?
Click to expand...

Oh I hate that scene... so deeply.

Walking around with a hot weapon safety off, hanging off the body like a dead albatross... just a matter of time before it catches on something and make a loud sound and literally rips someone a new a**hole. Literally flagging everyone in the room at some point.

Huge difference between a pistol in a holster fully covering the trigger guard and a slung long gun.
 
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#16
Well, back in the day when a larger safety for a P35 was not an option, Condition Zero was the order of the day. Guns are pretty simple, press trigger, BANG, no press trigger, nothing happens.

The little old lady sees the Texas Ranger with a 1911, the hammer is cocked. She points that out and says "Sir, isn't that dangerous?" Ranger replies, "I certainly hope so ma'am."
 
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#17
W54/XM-388 said:
Generally speaking, the SA trigger pull on a DA/SA pistol when cocked is significantly lighter than on your average non-tuned striker fired pistols.

What you don't want to happen is going bang prematurely when trying to draw under stress, or by accident when holstering / unholstering.
You can see videos of folks shooting themselves in the leg drawing on the range.
Odd things happen during holstering or such.

If you have a manual safety, go ahead and carry it cocked and locked like a 1911 if you so wish.
Otherwise it would be prudent to carry it in DA mode

Something to remember is that unless it is your job to go looking for trouble, chances are you'll carry your gun your whole life and never have to use it in anger. So a bit of extra safety is a good thing because a Bang when you didn't mean to, can mess up your life big time.

In a close quarters, high stress situation, you won't even notice the DA pull and if you have enough time or distance to be worrying about a really good aimed shot, you have enough time to pull the hammer back.
Click to expand...

Understood, I’m just used to carrying my 1911 with a much lighter trigger, for that I’m thumbing the safety on the draw, heck I’d have to think to draw it without hitting the safety

Gun wise, it’s got no external safety, just a decock, it’s a new stainless PPKS, yeah I know, but for a bigger gun it doesn’t print as much as my tiny sig, plus 380 XTP seems to have come a long ways, won’t replace my baby 1911 9mm, but I’ll put it into my limited rotation.
 
#18
W54/XM-388 said:
Generally speaking, the SA trigger pull on a DA/SA pistol when cocked is significantly lighter than on your average non-tuned striker fired pistols.

What you don't want to happen is going bang prematurely when trying to draw under stress, or by accident when holstering / unholstering.
You can see videos of folks shooting themselves in the leg drawing on the range.
Odd things happen during holstering or such.

If you have a manual safety, go ahead and carry it cocked and locked like a 1911 if you so wish.
Otherwise it would be prudent to carry it in DA mode

Something to remember is that unless it is your job to go looking for trouble, chances are you'll carry your gun your whole life and never have to use it in anger. So a bit of extra safety is a good thing because a Bang when you didn't mean to, can mess up your life big time.

In a close quarters, high stress situation, you won't even notice the DA pull and if you have enough time or distance to be worrying about a really good aimed shot, you have enough time to pull the hammer back.
Click to expand...
Ummm you mean never have to use it in self defense?
 
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#25
Huskydriver said:
Yea I'm confused....I thought the whole point of sada was so you could carry hammer down and just pull the trigger?
Click to expand...

If the trigger pull wasn’t night and day I’d go that route. Maybe could get it worked on a bit, but it’s still the nature of the beast.

Minus the DA pull, I just like how the little fucker shoots, for its size it’s very accurate, at least for me, right out of the box and the natural point of aim rocks. Though I did have to get the rear beaver tail blended a little to takes them edges off.

But for night time stuff, or some other situations, I’ll probably just go back to my sig, though the PPKS has its place, I’d just prefer not the shoot it DA
 
#26
TurboTrout said:
If the trigger pull wasn’t night and day I’d go that route. Maybe could get it worked on a bit, but it’s still the nature of the beast.

Minus the DA pull, I just like how the little fucker shoots, for its size it’s very accurate, at least for me, right out of the box and the natural point of aim rocks. Though I did have to get the rear beaver tail blended a little to takes them edges off.

But for night time stuff, or some other situations, I’ll probably just go back to my sig, though the PPKS has its place, I’d just prefer not the shoot it DA
Click to expand...
I have never shot a ppks but I carry a 229 on the reg with a tuned trigger and the da is only like 6 lbs and is super smooth ymmv. If you like it locked back I say it's on you chief like everything else in life.
 
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#27
TurboTrout said:
I normally do, just in certain environments I’d like to carry this PPKS I got too 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
I went with a P938 for that roll. Same manual of arms as the 1911s I usually carry.

I like my PPKS just because it’s cool. Hasn’t had an issue with warmer HPs but doesn’t like to feed cheapo ammo well. Not reliable enough to carry.
 
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#28
FWoo45 said:
I went with a P938 for that roll. Same manual of arms as the 1911s I usually carry.

I like my PPKS just because it’s cool. Hasn’t had an issue with warmer HPs but doesn’t like to feed cheapo ammo well. Not reliable enough to carry.
Click to expand...

That’s been my rig for a long time, different trigger, springs, guide rod, and sights, 938 is sweet carry, and has more time on my hip than anything, I’d just like to get tuned into the best way to rock the PPKS for a times I carry that.

We have a train down here, sometimes it’s VERY handy, but it’s anti 2A and has metal detectors, having one small carry at the “office” and one at home has its benefits too
 
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#29
If you stage a DA trigger press upon presenting the pistol on target, its nearly as light as the SA press.

I carry my Shadow 2 hammer all the way down, safety off. Upon the draw, I am prepping the trigger during the presentation as to where when I see my dot come on target I press the remaining 2-3mm of travel, breaking the shot.

If distance is your friend, then you may have an extra second to pull the hammer back for a SA press.

A good DA/SA pistol gives you 95% of the trigger press of a 19/2011 without a grip or thumb safety. Though I would like to own a decent 2011 some day, maybe something entry level like a Staccato.
 
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#33
TurboTrout said:
That was my thought, in a modern DA/SA with all the fancy internal drop safe stuff, carrying it hammer back safety off doesn’t seem different than just carrying a Glock from a safety standpoint, at least as far as I can tell so far
Click to expand...
no, the single action trigger pull being lighter is way easier to accidentally set one off than a glock/striker. in uspsa and all the other games i'm familiar with, holstering a handgun with hammer cocked and no external safety engaged is a dq.
 
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#34
TurboTrout said:
On a PPKS, yes

It doesn’t have a thumb down safety, not for hammer back, it’s a decock plus a hammer down only safety.

If the safety worked like that of a 1911, I wouldn’t have posted this.
Click to expand...
I've never owned a PPKS, I was just thinking about how nice the safety feels on a gov/commander frame 1911
 
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#40
TurboTrout said:
That’s been my rig for a long time, different trigger, springs, guide rod, and sights, 938 is sweet carry, and has more time on my hip than anything, I’d just like to get tuned into the best way to rock the PPKS for a times I carry that.

We have a train down here, sometimes it’s VERY handy, but it’s anti 2A and has metal detectors, having one small carry at the “office” and one at home has its benefits too
Click to expand...
My PPK/S was actually my desk gun for a couple years until I recently retired a custom DW from the carry rotation and it is now filling that roll. Can only carry four different guns here in kali though so the PPK/S was never going to make that cut. I bought it because I watched a Bond marathon and they’re cool. Mine is the older S&W model, I don’t think I’d carry it in condition 0. I train and carry 1911 type guns exclusively. I could see how that could go badly for me.

Does the train actually say no guns allowed? I usually just walk right through metal detectors and let em beep. I’m not going to a courthouse though.
 
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#42
FWoo45 said:
My PPK/S was actually my desk gun for a couple years until I recently retired a custom DW from the carry rotation and it is now filling that roll. Can only carry four different guns here in kali though so the PPK/S was never going to make that cut. I bought it because I watched a Bond marathon and they’re cool. Mine is the older S&W model, I don’t think I’d carry it in condition 0. I train and carry 1911 type guns exclusively. I could see how that could go badly for me.

Does the train actually say no guns allowed? I usually just walk right through metal detectors and let em beep. I’m not going to a courthouse though.
Click to expand...

I haven’t tested it, but it seems they take it seriously, it’s private I think, so could always put a bunch of quarters in my pocket and do some pen testing
 
#44
PBWalsh said:
If you stage a DA trigger press upon presenting the pistol on target, its nearly as light as the SA press.

I carry my Shadow 2 hammer all the way down, safety off. Upon the draw, I am prepping the trigger during the presentation as to where when I see my dot come on target I press the remaining 2-3mm of travel, breaking the shot.

If distance is your friend, then you may have an extra second to pull the hammer back for a SA press.

A good DA/SA pistol gives you 95% of the trigger press of a 19/2011 without a grip or thumb safety. Though I would like to own a decent 2011 some day, maybe something entry level like a Staccato.
Click to expand...
I starting training myself to stage the trigger on my P229 but then quit. I stopped because I was doing a presentation drill once where I shot one steel target and brought the pistol back in towards my my chest. But instead of de-cocking as I came back to re-holster I immediately decided to take a few slow-fire shots at the steel to check POI in the gun because I was shooting frangible for the first time with it. I consciously didn't de-cock the gun because I was checking for accuracy. When I pushed the pistol back out I completely subconsciously staged the trigger (with it cocked) and shot a round about 20' over the berm into my woods. Definitely rattled me a little.

I had learned to stage the trigger on a DAO P250 (but luckily hadn't used it for long), so when I got the P229 it was a natural transition for the first round. I decided I had to un-learn staging if I am going to stay with the P229. Have you ever had this problem with staging a DA/SA?
 
#45
Namekagon said:
I starting training myself to stage the trigger on my P229 but then quit. I stopped because I was doing a presentation drill once where I shot one steel target and brought the pistol back in towards my my chest. But instead of de-cocking as I came back to re-holster I immediately decided to take a few slow-fire shots at the steel to check POI in the gun because I was shooting frangible for the first time with it. I consciously didn't de-cock the gun because I was checking for accuracy. When I pushed the pistol back out I completely subconsciously staged the trigger (with it cocked) and shot a round about 20' over the berm into my woods. Definitely rattled me a little.

I had learned to stage the trigger on a DAO P250 (but luckily hadn't used it for long), so when I got the P229 it was a natural transition for the first round. I decided I had to un-learn staging if I am going to stay with the P229. Have you ever had this problem with staging a DA/SA?
Click to expand...
Not really. Sometimes I may get a double tap with SA, but the only issue I’ve ever had was manually letting the hammer down on my S2. First time I got it I was thumbing the hammer down and my thumb slipped, sending a round into the berm. Didi it twice that day, haven’t since.

But forgetting I was in SA? I cannot think of a time. Knowing the condition if your firearm is critical, and don’t go “faster” than your brain can process.
 
#50
PBWalsh said:
You get on target before pressing? Maybe I suck, but that induces error for me.
Click to expand...

Most of the time I do start the press right at the end (or very near the end) of the draw stroke. Sometimes I start the trigger press as I start extending, but that's not what staging is.

Once a DA trigger starts moving it keeps moving until the pistol fires. If your finger stops moving the trigger, it should be because you decided not to shoot.

Staging is pulling almost all the way through the trigger, stopping there, then pressing the last little bit when everything is "perfect". It's a fudd move probably invented by bullseye shooters or old school cops trying to qualify.

Watch this and parts 2 and 3
 
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