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Carrying condition 0 with modern equipment?

I know a PD firearms trainer that runs his Sig DA/SA with the hammer back in the holster (no manual safety). Safariland holster I believe.

"It's no different than a Glock."

He's a fucking idiot who has zero idea of how firearms work

And anyone who thinks cops are, in general, gun experts is an even bigger idiot.
 
In a close quarters, high stress situation, you won't even notice the DA pull and if you have enough time or distance to be worrying about a really good aimed shot, you have enough time to pull the hammer back.

More fudd bullshit

Where in the hell am I?
 
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Most of the time I do start the press right at the end (or very near the end) of the draw stroke. Sometimes I start the trigger press as I start extending, but that's not what staging is.

Once a DA trigger starts moving it keeps moving until the pistol fires. If your finger stops moving the trigger, it should be because you decided not to shoot.

Staging is pulling almost all the way through the trigger, stopping there, then pressing the last little bit when everything is "perfect". It's a fudd move probably invented by bullseye shooters or old school cops trying to qualify.

Watch this and parts 2 and 3

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I kinda do both depending on the distance. I‘m sure during the USPSA match I’m attending Saturday will have zero “staging” and all pull throughs.

Overall, I just need to shoot pistol more. I’m maybe at 1k rounds per year. I try to make those very intentional backed with dry fire, but nevertheless I need more to hit my pistol goals.
 
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Most of the time I do start the press right at the end (or very near the end) of the draw stroke. Sometimes I start the trigger press as I start extending, but that's not what staging is.

Once a DA trigger starts moving it keeps moving until the pistol fires. If your finger stops moving the trigger, it should be because you decided not to shoot.

Staging is pulling almost all the way through the trigger, stopping there, then pressing the last little bit when everything is "perfect". It's a fudd move probably invented by bullseye shooters or old school cops trying to qualify.

Watch this and parts 2 and 3

Sorry, I used incorrect terminology. I don’t stop the trigger pull, I meant that I start pulling about half way through the press-out.

My point was that on a DA/SA trigger, forming that habit created a situation where, even though I consciously knew the gun was cocked, my hand followed muscle memory, probably because I was focusing on the target. And the gun discharged before I wanted it to.
 
Sorry, I used incorrect terminology. I don’t stop the trigger pull, I meant that I start pulling about half way through the press-out.

Gotcha. Now I understand. Now you know why I am absolutely not a fan of starting the trigger press (even DA) during the draw stroke except under very limited conditions (like a target that is very, very close)

And I am absolutely a fan of DA/SA pistols.
 
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He's a fucking idiot who has zero idea of how firearms work

And anyone who thinks cops are, in general, gun experts is an even bigger idiot.

My point is, as someone who understands how they work, and understanding the modern PPKS has hammer block, why is carrying it condition 0 dangerous, or anymore dangerous than a G19 with a trigger job?
 
My point is, as someone who understands how they work, and understanding the modern PPKS has hammer block, why is carrying it condition 0 dangerous, or anymore dangerous than a G19 with a trigger job?

What is the exact pull weight of the trigger in SA mode?
5 to 6 pounds, you'll probably be okay, 2 to 3 pounds and you are looking for an accident.

A striker fire with too light a trigger pull would be equally dangerous to use as a carry gun.
There is a reason most factory guns don't go lower than the 5 to 6 pound at a minimum range.
 
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My point is, as someone who understands how they work, and understanding the modern PPKS has hammer block, why is carrying it condition 0 dangerous, or anymore dangerous than a G19 with a trigger job?

A hammer block is not a firing pin block.

If the Walther hammer block works like the hammer block on a S&W revolver, it gets out of the hammer's path when the hammer is cocked. It doesn't matter HOW the hammer is cocked, the result is the same. If the hammer slips off the sear, or if you touch the trigger, of if the trigger gets caught on clothing or holster, you will have a negligent discharge.

I'm just glad you aren't near me.
 
What is the exact pull weight of the trigger in SA mode?
5 to 6 pounds, you'll probably be okay, 2 to 3 pounds and you are looking for an accident.

A striker fire with too light a trigger pull would be equally dangerous to use as a carry gun.
There is a reason most factory guns don't go lower than the 5 to 6 pound at a minimum range.

Trigger weight is not the only issue here. Far from it.
 
What is the exact pull weight of the trigger in SA mode?
5 to 6 pounds, you'll probably be okay, 2 to 3 pounds and you are looking for an accident.

A striker fire with too light a trigger pull would be equally dangerous to use as a carry gun.
There is a reason most factory guns don't go lower than the 5 to 6 pound at a minimum range.

B94-F342-A-8-D78-4-ED1-B0-CD-11-AA55566-F3-F.jpg
 
A hammer block is not a firing pin block.

If the Walther hammer block works like the hammer block on a S&W revolver, it gets out of the hammer's path when the hammer is cocked. It doesn't matter HOW the hammer is cocked, the result is the same. If the hammer slips off the sear, or if you touch the trigger, of if the trigger gets caught on clothing or holster, you will have a negligent discharge.

I'm just glad you aren't near me.

If the trigger on a say Sig365 gets snagged it will go off too no?
 
I like my DA/SA pistolas....
DeCockers. No safeties.
I have plenty of striker-fires, but only carry the others.
 
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If you want it to be like a sig365 then carry it cocked and loaded (hammer back) and rely on your hammer block to always be there for you.
The problem with that is that many hammer block designs are such that the hammer is physically what moves the block out of the way when the hammer is cocked. So when the hammer is cocked, the hammer block is out of the hammer's path regardless of the position of the trigger bar. If the hammer falls for any reason, be it by actuation of the sear via the trigger or by mechanical failure (hammer slips off the sear) the hammer will strike the firing pin and the pistol will fire.

A firing pin block will not let that happen because a FP block is actuated by the travel of the trigger bar in every pistol I'm familiar with. So even if a cocked hammer slipped off the sear, the firing pin will be hit but won't move because the FP block plunger blocks its path.
 
If the trigger on a say Sig365 gets snagged it will go off too no?

That is actually something that HAS happened with Glocks. Holster failure, clothing in the wrong place, items in a carry bag or pocket "safety trigger" is not really going to always stop it.

The answer basically is YES, if the trigger gets pressed with sufficient force, at a good enough angle it will go bang.
(That's one of the reasons I carry the manual safety version only).

Generally that's why when you carry a striker fired pistol you NEED an external safety system comprising of a good holster that is sturdy, rigid and completely covers the trigger and enough of the frame or grip to secure it. (Good practice for any pistol, regardless of the firing mechanism).
Shoving it down the front of your pants Mexican style is asking for cheap do it yourself birth control.

It's also why those who understand the safety aspects often advise, that if you pull out your pistol from your concealed carry, don't re-holster it in your concealed holster that's tucked into your clothes, instead pull out the holster, carefully place the gun back in the holster then put the holster with the gun safely stowed, back in it's location.
 
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You might understand how the 90 year old design of the ppk works but you obviously don’t have a clue how the different striker fired pistols work.
Glock and Sig365 are vastly different inside.
Obviously not everyone is going to say “yeah carry a ppk loaded with the hammer back”. But do whatever.

Did you think this thread was me asking for your permission 😂


Obviously I’m going to do as I wish, the point of this thread is asking for the safety of the mechanism when carried in SA vs DA mode.
 
That is actually something that HAS happened with Glocks. Holster failure, clothing in the wrong place, items in a carry bag or pocket "safety trigger" is not really going to always stop it.

The answer basically is YES, if the trigger gets pressed with sufficient force, at a good enough angle it will go bang.
(That's one of the reasons I carry the manual safety version only).

Generally that's why when you carry a striker fired pistol you NEED an external safety system comprising of a good holster that is sturdy, rigid and completely covers the trigger and enough of the frame or grip to secure it. (Good practice for any pistol, regardless of the firing mechanism).
Shoving it down the front of your pants Mexican style is asking for cheap do it yourself birth control.

It's also why those who understand the safety aspects often advise, that if you pull out your pistol from your concealed carry, don't re-holster it in your concealed holster that's tucked into your clothes, instead pull out the holster, carefully place the gun back in the holster then put the holster with the gun safely stowed, back in it's location.

Gotcha, do you have any other further details on the internal safety of the new PPKS? It’s still pretty new to me
 
It's also why those who understand the safety aspects often advise, that if you pull out your pistol from your concealed carry, don't re-holster it in your concealed holster that's tucked into your clothes, instead pull out the holster, carefully place the gun back in the holster then put the holster with the gun safely stowed, back in it's location.
One HUGE advantage of appendix carry is that I can look down and clearly see the holster and make absolutely sure that nothing is in the way to snag the trigger. Something is that is nowhere as easy with strong side OWB or IWB.
 
One HUGE advantage of appendix carry is that I can look down and clearly see the holster and make absolutely sure that nothing is in the way to snag the trigger. Something is that is nowhere as easy with strong side OWB or IWB.
Your wife probably isn't as good a cook as mine.
If I carried appendix carry, my gun would be in the shade all the time.
 
I thought you knew how the damned thing worked?

@Baron23 was a genius when he made this excellent meme. It perfectly describes this dumpster fire of a thread

youropinion-jpg.7901010

I have no opinion, I posted a question.

The thread title have a “?” for Christ sakes lol


..Mechanically on a new version PPKS why would it mechanically be unsafe to carry SA mode?
 
Your wife probably isn't as good a cook as mine.
If I carried appendix carry, my gun would be in the shade all the time.
I've had to do a lot of push ups, as in push up away from the table and from the beer.

ETA, I'm the cook and I'm pretty fucking good.
 
The problem with that is that many hammer block designs are such that the hammer is physically what moves the block out of the way when the hammer is cocked. So when the hammer is cocked, the hammer block is out of the hammer's path regardless of the position of the trigger bar. If the hammer falls for any reason, be it by actuation of the sear via the trigger or by mechanical failure (hammer slips off the sear) the hammer will strike the firing pin and the pistol will fire.

A firing pin block will not let that happen because a FP block is actuated by the travel of the trigger bar in every pistol I'm familiar with. So even if a cocked hammer slipped off the sear, the firing pin will be hit but won't move because the FP block plunger blocks its path.
I could be wrong but I believe some FP block are actuated by grip safety like Swartz style 1911. I'm not sure if there are other pistols that use that designs since apparently it's not the most reliable but seems like a good idea in theory.
 
I could be wrong but I believe some FP block are actuated by grip safety like Swartz style 1911. I'm not sure if there are other pistols that use that designs since apparently it's not the most reliable but seems like a good idea in theory.

Very possibly. But I'm limiting my comments to pistols I'm familiar with and can describe their operation in detail from memory.

I know nothing about 1911s
 
There is a safety lever in the side that makes it safe. There is a spring loaded hammer block but it is the only line of safety from accidents if the Safety laver is not engaged.
What if it If the spring that holds the hammer block in place is broken or the small plunger is out of position or missing, it may not function as it was intended and therefore not be safe at all.
This is if someone carried it loaded without using the safety.
We have come a long ways since 1930 when this design came out.

It’s not a safety as much as a decocker

So the reasoning for not carrying it hammer back is because if multiple internal parts failed it would lose its drop/impact safe features?
 
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Well decocking it does make it safe.
And if you carry it hammer back then the sear and the hammer block both have to fail or be defeated for it to go off.
Possible? Yes
Unlikely? Yes.
You decide.

Thanks, that’s the info I was looking for.

Have you ever heard of this type of failure in a modern PPKS, or a comparable weapon?

Wonder how much less safe that is compared to carrying my sig SAO condition 1?
 
It’s not a safety as much as a decocker

It's both. It decocks and blocks the hammer (or sear, can't remember which) when pushed down. It unblocks the hammer/sear when flipped back up to horizontal.

Just like a Walther P-38, Beretta 92F/FS, and S&W 2nd and 3rd Gen semi autos.
 
So the reasoning for not carrying it hammer back is because if multiple internal parts failed it would lose its drop/impact safe features?
Do you not understand that the hammer block is out of the hammer's path when the hammer is cocked? It's exactly like carrying a 1911 cocked and with the safety off.
 
It's both. It decocks and blocks the hammer (or sear, can't remember which) when pushed down. It unblocks the hammer/sear when flipped back up to horizontal.

Just like a Walther P-38, Beretta 92F/FS, and S&W 2nd and 3rd Gen semi autos.

Not a safety in that it basically turns the gun into a prop with the pain in the butt factor it would take to disengage it on the draw.
 
Do you not understand that the hammer block is out of the hammer's path when the hammer is cocked? It's exactly like carrying a 1911 cocked and with the safety off.

I thought there was another safety feature on these that required the trigger to move aft to disengage, al la drop safe stuff


Or is it that the drop safe feature is based in the gun being carried hammer down and looses its extra safety when hammer back?
 
Welcome.
I have never witnessed it first hand, nor have I personally heard of stories that I could verify as 100% true either.

I don’t know what sig you mean.
I have a Sig P290RS that's SAO - and if you are going to have an ND with that thing - you will have to try pretty hard.
 
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Not a single LE agency in the U.S. that uses DA/SA semiautos allow any of their officers to carry those guns in condition 0. This should give you a clue of what they think about that idea. If you're going to carry a DA/SA semiauto learn to master that first DA shot or switch to a different platform.

I don’t look to .gov workers as a example of how to do….well….anything 😂

I’m just here for the mechanical facts on the mechanism and the risks mechanically of having the weapon carried SA vs DA.
 
You're only going to get anecdotes and opinions here. There are no facts to be had, on this subject, on this board.
 
just keep in mind most of the passive safeties, incl glock safe action, are more for accidental drops and the like. if you pull that trigger, either intentionally or unintentionally with your fingers, or unintentionally while holstering with a drawstring or shirttail in the way, it is going to go bang.
 
You're only going to get anecdotes and opinions here. There are no facts to be had, on this subject, on this board.

The best answer I got was JimJr’s

“…If the spring that holds the hammer block in place is broken or the small plunger is out of position or missing, it may not function as it was intended and therefore not be safe at all…

So it seems it’s only unsafe to carry SA (outside of pulling the trigger for no reason) if multiple components are broken in the weapon.
 
The best answer I got was JimJr’s

“…If the spring that holds the hammer block in place is broken or the small plunger is out of position or missing, it may not function as it was intended and therefore not be safe at all…

So it seems it’s only unsafe to carry SA (outside of pulling the trigger for no reason) if multiple components are broken in the weapon.
And, he followed it up with this gem...

"I will add, my circle of experience is likely very small compared to many here.
I’m young and haven’t traveled far."
 
And, he followed it up with this gem...

"I will add, my circle of experience is likely very small compared to many here.
I’m young and haven’t traveled far."

Still, the most logical and factual response.
 
just keep in mind most of the passive safeties, incl glock safe action, are more for accidental drops and the like. if you pull that trigger, either intentionally or unintentionally with your fingers, or unintentionally while holstering with a drawstring or shirttail in the way, it is going to go bang.

How's that different than the PPKS in SA mode

Its drop safe protected in SA, but not pull trigger proof.
 
i know nothing about the ppk. all i'm saying is don't hear the word 'safety,' esp with striker-fired guns and da/sa, and think the gun won't go off if the trigger is pulled.

it's great that the various passive safeties will keep guns from firing when dropped, but at least imo, the more prevalent and worrisome event is holstering and something 'triggering' the trigger.

i have zero worries holstering a glock 43x in my appendix holster, but when i carry 1911/2011s they are always cocked and locked.
 
So it seems it’s only unsafe to carry SA (outside of pulling the trigger for no reason) if multiple components are broken in the weapon.
would strongly advise NOT carrying/handling any gun that has multiple, or even one, component broken... perhaps your comment was in jest.
 
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i know nothing about the ppk. all i'm saying is don't hear the word 'safety,' esp with striker-fired guns and da/sa, and think the gun won't go off if the trigger is pulled.

it's great that the various passive safeties will keep guns from firing when dropped, but at least imo, the more prevalent and worrisome event is holstering and something 'triggering' the trigger.

i have zero worries holstering a glock 43x in my appendix holster, but when i carry 1911/2011s they are always cocked and locked.

Called walther today, was told the weapon is drop safe condition 0 🤷‍♂️

Still looking for how mechanically it’s less safe to carry the 6.3lb .2” trigger walther condition 0, than carrying a striker, many have less pull