Carrying condition 0 with modern equipment?

tucaz

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The amount of force and travel it takes to trip a Glock (or similar trigger) is several times greater than the amount of force and distance it takes to trip the SA trigger of my P-07, P-09, 75BD, and even more than what it takes to trip the cocked trigger of my S&W 915.

You do what you want, but I want to make sure other don't follow your stupid lead out of ignorance.
look man..... i had a S&W MP45c that was probably easier to touch off a round than the P-07 is.

you're are awfully worked into a lather about this. i've practiced alot drawing my con-zero p-07 and never had an issue. finger doesnt go on the trigger until i come on target with any pistol.
 

theLBC

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    for me, that DA pull is my safety...because i have to be fully committed to the shot, but speed and accuracy with a 10lb pull isn't an issue for me after 30 years...
    personally would not carry in con 0, but that's just me.
     

    jpndave

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    But mechanically why?

    Now if you were to say this about some original early say 1920s DA SA that didn’t have drop safe features, I agree.
    Assuming a good holster, It's not the carrying that I would be most concerned with but the draw/transition/whatever crazy situation that can be imagined. You touch that trigger cocked and it's going off. Properly tuned the double action pull is completely manageable. If you want to carry same pull all shots, go striker or SA with a safety. I daily a P365. Love my tuned Legion P226 but it's big.
     

    308pirate

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    look man..... i had a S&W MP45c that was probably easier to touch off a round than the P-07 is.

    you're are awfully worked into a lather about this. i've practiced alot drawing my con-zero p-07 and never had an issue. finger doesnt go on the trigger until i come on target with any pistol.
    Like I said, I don't give a shit what you do.

    I'm just pointing out to others why what you do is stupid.
     

    TurboTrout

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    Like I said, I don't give a shit what you do.

    I'm just pointing out to others why what you do is stupid.


    but-why.png
     

    jpndave

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    Called walther today, was told the weapon is drop safe condition 0 🤷‍♂️

    Still looking for how mechanically it’s less safe to carry the 6.3lb .2” trigger walther condition 0, than carrying a striker, many have less pull

    The P365 is the same as the PPKS in SA mode, got some screen shots in this thread I think
    So as long as the length of pull is acceptable, I'll buy this. Crap heavy long (likely gritty) single action pull with drop protect features = as safe as my P365 with similar weight/length pull. A proper DA/SA single action, P226 (or similar, what I personally own) tuned to approach DA/SA single action revolver/1911 trigger, no way. If the single action is a crap trigger like that, why not just carry the striker gun? What is the point/advantage of the DA/SA gun carried single action other than maybe you already own it?
     

    tucaz

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    Like I said, I don't give a shit what you do.

    I'm just pointing out to others why what you do is stupid.

    well then.....ok boss man.

    edit; look, i dont sport round in Con-0 but if i did and i have, it doesnt scare me because its like carrying a striker gun. i dont understand the brain lock on that. training is everything with any pistol.

    gotta get back to work now.
     
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    W54/XM-388

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    One question for the one really into the PPK/S:
    Have you handled and fired the PPK/S in .380 ?

    My impressions from handling one were, heavy, blocky and I'll take any one of a number of 9mm pistols over it.
    Others that shot it said the recoil felt less pleasant than many 9mm pistols.
     

    Brettdec

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    These days with virtually all modern pistols having a trigger block that will not allow a primer strike unless the trigger is pulled via different types of internal trigger linked safety features….

    Aside from more safeties more better, with a proper holster and trigger control is there any reason not to carry a modern hammer fire DA/SA condition 0?
    My experience requires that I say yes, there is a reason - Murphy's Law.

    Murphy dictates that your AD will happen at the worst possible time, caused by a gust of wind, or some such nonsense, which just manages to blow the corner of your shirt into your trigger guard upon reholstering. The more certain you are with the safety of your method, the more likely your own progeny will be in the line of fire - as you bend over to pick up your brand new Stetson, coincidentally blown off your head by the same gust.

    ...If it CAN go wrong, it will.

    In all seriousness - dedicate 100 rounds per month to train though the transition and see how you feel about it. Focusing on relaxation, smooth motion and accuracy: Draw, fire 2 rounds, decock and re holster. If you fly the 10 ring, slow down.

    Murphy's law of proportionality states that this expenditure is inversely proportional to the odds of engaging in a quick draw contest.
     
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    Jgault

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    Personal opinion it’s not a good idea. A Glock or allot of striker fired pistols have more take up leaving room for error in trigger discipline and just somehow bumping the trigger on accident. Two stories come to mind, I believe it was in Lubbock Texas years as go a guy had a 1911 cocked and it fell out of his jacket at a cafeteria and fired hitting some guy in the ass. The second one just made me laugh from my hometown, a guy was going to the john at a restaurant and didn’t want to drop his pants and his gun touch the floor, so he took a cocked 1911 and hung it on the stall jacket hook from the trigger guard. He bumped it upwards in the process. It fired, but the recoil made it keep firing on the hook until empty. I don’t know if there was a guy in the next stall but if there was he traumatized about public johns forever.
     

    TurboTrout

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    One question for the one really into the PPK/S:
    Have you handled and fired the PPK/S in .380 ?

    My impressions from handling one were, heavy, blocky and I'll take any one of a number of 9mm pistols over it.
    Others that shot it said the recoil felt less pleasant than many 9mm pistols.

    Yup, got it a month ago, had some of the edges un sharpened a little by the beaver tail, great little gun.

    It is heavy as it’s all stainless, but blocky? That’s the inverse of the PPK/S, one of the reasons I like the PPKS, though it’s not replacing some of my other CCWs, is the smooth lines, very snag free, and though it weighs more than my slightly smaller and lighter sigs, it carries well (at least as a tall medium build man) and really doesn’t print with the flush mag, shooting it has a very nice natural point of aim, something many newer guns lack, and it very accurate on its first box of ammo and my first time shooting it, it’s not a do it all carry gun, but worthy of being in rotation.
     
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    StLPro2A

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    Loaded or NOT. The Primary Safety on ANY firearm is muzzle direction!

    Any other mechanical safety device(s) is Extra.

    A tax payer sponsored professional Dancing out of control with his Muzzle Direction out of control when he picked up the pistol with his finger inside the trigger guard. GrassHopper, no further teachings necessary.



    View attachment 7900691

    LIke father, like son....didn't know Alec Baldwin had a son in FBI......
     

    TurboTrout

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    trigger pull weight is not the only metric.

    while the pull weights may be similar.....the 365 requires what? an inch of travel to fire a round.....the PPKs requires ~1/16"


    that is a very significant factor

    Did a little quick check with what I had just off hand

    The new PPKS, SA mode, advertised as 6lbs, feels right


    A06912-EE-A3-BF-4-CDF-B496-531514-A6-E429.jpg



    Second is a gen3 Glock based weapon with a CMC trigger, just a hair under 5lbs.


    BED14-C4-B-3-AEF-4-EE5-AC68-32-F3-A1148-AEE.jpg
     
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    mcameron

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    Did a little quick check with what I had just off hand

    The new PPKS, advertised as 6lbs, feels right


    A06912-EE-A3-BF-4-CDF-B496-531514-A6-E429.jpg



    Second is a gen3 Glock based weapon with a CMC trigger, just a hair under 5lbs.


    BED14-C4-B-3-AEF-4-EE5-AC68-32-F3-A1148-AEE.jpg
    just make sure when you are measuring the PPK....there is pre travel where there is pretty much no weight required to pull it, then you hit the wall where its 6 lbs....then you have a good bit of over travel.

    i measured mine and it was right around ~1/16"




    on a factory glock, from the wall to the break was ~1/4"




    so a revision of what i posted earlier, but i was trying to recall trigger pulls from memory.
     

    TurboTrout

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    Let’s all rock our revolvers loaded and cocked! What could go wrong???










    No let’s not…

    Another interesting point

    How much of that is just rote carry over from the old days?

    With pretty much every modern revolver having a transfer bar or similar, you could do whatever, fall, bash against a wall, pistol whip some one lol, it ain’t going boom unless you pull the trigger.

    So we have a few factors logically

    1, a proper holsters #1 job is to guard the trigger, I think everyone agrees there, as the trigger is the only realistic way modern weapons will fire

    2, we have two thoughts on methods of safety, external safety, or no external safety

    2a
    With external safety we feel much more comfortable having very light triggers with but a cunts hair of travel

    2b
    With no external safety, we like to have a little more weight and travel on the trigger


    Am I missing anything?
     

    TurboTrout

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    just make sure when you are measuring the PPK....there is pre travel where there is pretty much no weight required to pull it, then you hit the wall where its 6 lbs....then you have a good bit of over travel.

    i measured mine and it was right around ~1/16"




    on a factory glock, from the wall to the break was ~1/4"




    so a revision of what i posted earlier, but i was trying to recall trigger pulls from memory.
    I first took measure with the trigger in its “natural state” no force applied to it
     

    308pirate

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    You mean except for all the CZ 75s, P09s, and clones where you can roll with a safety on and still have a firing pin block.

    I didn't think I'd have to state the obvious.

    Plus I'm sure you know some 75 models don't have a safety and have a decocker instead, and others (Shadows) don't have a firing pin block.
     

    srt-4_uk

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    What might be obvious to you is not obvious to everybody. I was just adding clarity to those reading who might not know.
     

    FWoo45

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    Personal opinion it’s not a good idea. A Glock or allot of striker fired pistols have more take up leaving room for error in trigger discipline and just somehow bumping the trigger on accident. Two stories come to mind, I believe it was in Lubbock Texas years as go a guy had a 1911 cocked and it fell out of his jacket at a cafeteria and fired hitting some guy in the ass. The second one just made me laugh from my hometown, a guy was going to the john at a restaurant and didn’t want to drop his pants and his gun touch the floor, so he took a cocked 1911 and hung it on the stall jacket hook from the trigger guard. He bumped it upwards in the process. It fired, but the recoil made it keep firing on the hook until empty. I don’t know if there was a guy in the next stall but if there was he traumatized about public johns forever.
    What about the grip and thumb safeties? Stories sound like bullshit.
     

    Jgault

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    What about the grip and thumb safeties? Stories sound like bullshit.
    What about the grip and thumb safeties? Stories sound like bullshit.
    Yes no gun has ever gone off being dropped before. Here is the warning that comes with every Colt 1911 70’s series “WARNING: WHEN A ROUND IS IN THE CHAMBER, THIS PISTOL MAY DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY IF IT IS DROPPED OR RECEIVES A BLOW. (THIS CAN OCCUR REGARDLESS OF THE POSITION OF THE HAMMER OR ANY OF THE VARIOUS SAFETY DEVICES.) DO NOT PUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER UNTIL THE PISTOL IS IN YOUR HAND AND YOU ARE READY TO SHOOT, AND CLEAR THE PISTOL IMMEDIATELY AFTER SHOOTING.” So evidently you have much more faith in the platform than Colt, and I said depends on the gun. Not to mention not all 1911’s or at least 1911 clones have a grip safety, there are entire forum threads on other sites where people bend the spring to disconnect them.
     
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    Snuby642

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    What a pita.

    Just wrap some electrical tape around it.
     

    FWoo45

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    Yes no gun has ever gone off being dropped before. Here is the warning that comes with every Colt 1911 70’s series “WARNING: WHEN A ROUND IS IN THE CHAMBER, THIS PISTOL MAY DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY IF IT IS DROPPED OR RECEIVES A BLOW. (THIS CAN OCCUR REGARDLESS OF THE POSITION OF THE HAMMER OR ANY OF THE VARIOUS SAFETY DEVICES.) DO NOT PUT A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER UNTIL THE PISTOL IS IN YOUR HAND AND YOU ARE READY TO SHOOT, AND CLEAR THE PISTOL IMMEDIATELY AFTER SHOOTING.” So evidently you have much more faith in the platform than Colt, and I said depends on the gun. Not to mention not all 1911’s or at least 1911 clones have a grip safety, there are entire forum threads on other sites where people bend the spring to disconnect them.
    I mean the seer can break sitting in a drawer, less likely with quality parts though. If you want to talk about rendering the GS inoperable whether by pinning it, destroying springs, or Novak’s “The Answer,” (all questionable on a carry gun, a libtard prosecutor would love that), that’s a different convo. Just like it would be if I brought up Ned Christiansen’s “Fall Arrest” to argue my point.

    I still think that a gun going full bump stock mode on a shitter door is a stretch without something else going on, like carrying it in condition 0.
     

    Yondering

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    The only DA/SA operating condition I'm aware of that is functionally like a Glock is the CZ and Tanfo hammer fired guns with a half cock position. That gives you about the same amount of trigger travel as a stock Glock (NOT a "Glock based firearm" with a competition trigger :rolleyes:) and a much shorter pull than full DA. I guess I'd be OK carrying in that condition with the safety off, but I don't carry one of those. The only one I have left is a Tanfo competition gun that is a heavy steel tank and not a carry gun.

    But then again, I can't imagine wanting to carry a PPKS these days either; seems like a silly choice with so many better options available. A carry gun is a tool for saving your life; it stands to reason that a thinking man would choose the most effective tool he can get. But I guess some guys are more fascinated by the gun itself and lose sight of what it's actually for.
     
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    308pirate

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    The only DA/SA operating condition I'm aware of that is functionally like a Glock is the CZ and Tanfo hammer fired guns with a half cock position. That gives you about the same amount of trigger travel as a stock Glock (NOT a "Glock based firearm" with a competition trigger :rolleyes:) and a much shorter pull than full DA. I guess I'd be OK carrying in that condition with the safety off, but I don't carry one of those. The only one I have left is a Tanfo competition gun that is a heavy steel tank and not a carry gun.

    Let me set the record straight on CZ DA/SA pistols.....since I compete with and carry them and have dived deep to understand exactly how they work.

    Carrying with the hammer on the "half cock" notch is 100% safe. That's where the hammer stops when you press the decocker on any CZ so equipped (75BD, P-01, SP-01 Tactical, P-09, SP-01 Phantom, etc).

    Manually lowering the hammer to that notch on a non-decocker CZ is also perfectly safe because that notch is the same on both hammers. The difference between hammers is an additional surface for the decocker to act upon.

    All of the above assumes we're talking about CZs with firing pin blocks, so basically anything that isn't a Shadow. I would not carry a CZ without a FPB at half cock. If the hammer slips off that notch on a drop, the pistol is likely to fire.
     

    Yondering

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    Let me set the record straight on CZ DA/SA pistols.....since I compete with and carry them and have dived deep to understand exactly how they work.

    Carrying with the hammer on the "half cock" notch is 100% safe. That's where the hammer stops when you press the decocker on any CZ so equipped (75BD, P-01, SP-01 Tactical, P-09, SP-01 Phantom, etc).

    Manually lowering the hammer to that notch on a non-decocker CZ is also perfectly safe because that notch is the same on both hammers. The difference between hammers is an additional surface for the decocker to act upon.

    All of the above assumes we're talking about CZs with firing pin blocks, so basically anything that isn't a Shadow. I would not carry a CZ without a FPB at half cock. If the hammer slips off that notch on a drop, the pistol is likely to fire.
    Agreed. My point was to address the OP’s ignorant assertion that a cocked SA or DA/SA was no different than a Glock.

    With the hammer at half cock, pulling the trigger partially cocks the hammer prior to releasing, like a Glock does with the striker. That’s a big part of what makes a Glock relatively safe without an external safety, and is not at all like the OP’s condition 0 bs.
     
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    TurboTrout

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    Agreed. My point was to address the OP’s ignorant assertion that a cocked SA or DA/SA was no different than a Glock.

    With the hammer at half cock, pulling the trigger partially cocks the hammer prior to releasing, like a Glock does with the striker. That’s a big part of what makes a Glock relatively safe without an external safety, and is not at all like the OP’s condition 0 bs.

    Oh cupcake… tell me how it’s that different

    Another 0.25” of travel, but with over 1 lbs more pull? Both drop safe.


    There are differences, but calling my question BS level differences, nooope
     

    JimmyJr

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    Both drop safe.
    So you say. But is it really and does that matter?
    Do you have and did you read the manual?
    Here is a quote from the manual for the PPK.
    “……..Your pistol and magazine are now fully loaded. Ensure that
    the decocking safety lever is in the down (SAFE) position. Your pistol is now in a safe condition to be holstered and carried. NEVER HOLSTER, CARRY
    OR STORE YOUR PISTOL WITH THE HAMMER COCKED. “

    I didn’t make that bold. Walther did.

    Here is a link to the online manual.
    It also says to NOT stage the trigger etc. it’s a good read for someone who doesn’t know how to safely operate one.

     

    TurboTrout

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    You do know those are written by lawyers, if they could get away with it they would say to never load it for safety, and install 9 trigger locks.

    But yea, it’s drop safe condition 0 due to the hammer block.
     

    JimmyJr

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    So lawyers wrote this manual also?
    Nowhere does this one say not to carry loaded.

    “SAFE ACTION® TRIGGER SYSTEM: GLOCK's revolutionary Safe Action® trigger system provides a consistent trigger pull from the first to the last round. The three automatic independently operating mechanical safeties are built into the fire control system of the pistol. All three safeties disengage sequentially as the trigger is pulled and automatically reengage when the trigger is released. This safe, simple and fast system allows the user to concentrate fully on tactical tasks, particularly while under stress. It is safe if dropped and functional at temperatures from -40° to 122° Fahrenheit / -40° to 50° Celsius.”
     
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    Yondering

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    Oh cupcake… tell me how it’s that different

    Another 0.25” of travel, but with over 1 lbs more pull? Both drop safe.


    There are differences, but calling my question BS level differences, nooope
    If you’re too stubborn to recognize the differences there, then it’s not worth any further time explaining anything to you.

    You aren’t looking for the truth, you’re just looking for validation of your own stupid ideas.

    🙄
     
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    308pirate

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    If you’re too stubborn to recognize the differences there, then it’s not worth any further time explaining anything to you.

    You aren’t looking for the truth, you’re just looking for validation of your own stupid ideas.

    🙄
    Exactly, he's an idiot.
     
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    TurboTrout

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    I’m simply looking for the mechanical logic as to why, “it says so” is not a reason any independently thinking man should ever take.
     

    Yondering

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    I’m simply looking for the mechanical logic as to why, “it says so” is not a reason any independently thinking man should ever take.

    No, you aren’t; that’s already been explained to you multiple times in different ways. You just refuse to accept it.

    You’ve proven that you’re not a “thinking man”, you’re a stubborn man-kid looking for validation of your idea.
     
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    theLBC

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    I’m simply looking for the mechanical logic as to why, “it says so” is not a reason any independently thinking man should ever take.

    Aside from more safeties more better, with a proper holster and trigger control is there any reason not to carry a modern hammer fire DA/SA condition 0?

    other than you're defeating the inherent safety designed into the da/sa handgun (why external safeties are redundant/unnecessary on them)?

    i would say because your question is not specific to any particular da/sa gun. you can have a competition tuned da/sa with an extremely light trigger that most sensible people would not consider safe for carry duty. a striker pistol requires enough effort to compress the spring, where a da/sa requires only enough effort to disengage the sear, and not enough to pop the primer.
     

    SanPatHogger

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    Most of the time I do start the press right at the end (or very near the end) of the draw stroke. Sometimes I start the trigger press as I start extending, but that's not what staging is.

    Once a DA trigger starts moving it keeps moving until the pistol fires. If your finger stops moving the trigger, it should be because you decided not to shoot.

    Staging is pulling almost all the way through the trigger, stopping there, then pressing the last little bit when everything is "perfect". It's a fudd move probably invented by bullseye shooters or old school cops trying to qualify.

    Watch this and parts 2 and 3

    Thank you for the video.
    I shoot a Taurus 92, use it in an entry level USPSA match.
    Seems the biggest thinga are, know your gun and practice.
    I will be practicing more. Most of the first DA first shot practice can be done with dry firing.
     

    TurboTrout

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    Aside from more safeties more better, with a proper holster and trigger control is there any reason not to carry a modern hammer fire DA/SA condition 0?

    other than you're defeating the inherent safety designed into the da/sa handgun (why external safeties are redundant/unnecessary on them)?

    i would say because your question is not specific to any particular da/sa gun. you can have a competition tuned da/sa with an extremely light trigger that most sensible people would not consider safe for carry duty. a striker pistol requires enough effort to compress the spring, where a da/sa requires only enough effort to disengage the sear, and not enough to pop the primer.

    That PPKS is stone stock 13lb DA 6lb SA, the only tune I had done was to round the beaver tail edges so they don’t dig into one’s hand.
     

    308pirate

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    Thank you for the video.
    I shoot a Taurus 92, use it in an entry level USPSA match.
    Seems the biggest thinga are, know your gun and practice.
    I will be practicing more. Most of the first DA first shot practice can be done with dry firing.

    Pay attention to how your hands grip the pistol. I remember a video you posted, there was much to fix.
     

    JimmyJr

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    Huh?

    Bull Shit
    My reply was in regards to a ppk on full cock off safety being as safe or the same as a Glock. Which is 100% false.
    In a Glock the striker is only partially retracted while gun is loaded. The press of the trigger retracts the striker then the sear releases it at full cock, hence “double action”.
    Please explain what you mean or how I’m wrong.
     

    wade2big

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    That PPKS is stone stock 13lb DA 6lb SA, the only tune I had done was to round the beaver tail edges so they don’t dig into one’s hand.
    I’ll try.

    Why is a glock with a 5lb trigger pull riding in a holster more safe to carry than a DA/SA pistol with the hammer cocked back when it has a 6lb SA trigger pull that is drop safe and it also rides in a holster?