What is your preference for match loading and why?
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Chargemaster. Because it faster. Individually weighting charges sucks!
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+1.....couldn't have said it any better
Exactly. I load about 2K rounds a year on two Chargemasters. It's not perfect some times you have to pinch out a few kernels on an over throw but you get really good at it. MUCH faster than a throw and trickle by hand. ChargeMaster hands down.
i just got a Chargemaster so havent reprogrammed it or anything as of yet. Both work well. As for speed...right now i think it is honestly about the same. Uniflow and drop a bit low and a quick trickle up only takes ~30 seconds per round. he chargemaster seems to take 20-30 seconds per a charge right now as well. Ill be using the chargemaster more and more though. Its just way easier to load up 50 rounds than have to calibrate the scale and thrower and all that
really?
thats like asking abacus or calculator.....
thats like asking abacus or calculator.....
Both.
I had a CM, returned it after one use. Slow, hard to clean out, temperamental and not accurate. Went to a Lee perfect powder measure, dandy trickler on a A&D scale...faster than a CM and accurate to the kernel.
My tuned M5 will move +/- .1gn depending on where the pivot is in the stones so I don't use it.
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My tuned M5 will move +/- .1gn depending on where the pivot is in the stones so I don't use it.
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I got my CM 1500 back in '05 and it put my Dillon beam scale back in its box.
I'm not a kernel counter, so it fits my needs perfectly.
Chris
I'm not a kernel counter, so it fits my needs perfectly.
Chris
What kind of ES numbers are people getting with the CM?
Chargemaster all the way. THE BEST purchase I've made in the last 5 or so yrs.
CM 4 SURE
balance beam over 40 years
never again as long as i have electricity
balance beam over 40 years
never again as long as i have electricity
IMHO - Chargemaster, baby. 
I like to wait for it to cycle back to where the display is showing the thrown charge weight after displaying the charge count to make sure it didn't drop an over-charge, but that's no big deal - it's only about two seconds longer. If it's heavy, I just dump it back in to the top of the hopper and keep going. I tested it against my beam scale on the last batch of 50 I threw, and it was dead-on. If it said my charge weight (after it settled), it WAS my charge weight when I validated it on the beam.
Good enough for me to trust in 1K matches.
I like to wait for it to cycle back to where the display is showing the thrown charge weight after displaying the charge count to make sure it didn't drop an over-charge, but that's no big deal - it's only about two seconds longer. If it's heavy, I just dump it back in to the top of the hopper and keep going. I tested it against my beam scale on the last batch of 50 I threw, and it was dead-on. If it said my charge weight (after it settled), it WAS my charge weight when I validated it on the beam.
Good enough for me to trust in 1K matches.
Just got me a chargemaster a month ago. How i reloaded for 3 years without i don't know. What used to be an annoying chore in throwing, trickling, repeat over and over....is now an amazing let it throw/trickle, powder the case, move the dish back and prepare to seat the bullets, i can actually reload about 40-50% faster by multi tasking while waiting for the next charge rather than having to do all the work to get the charge right.
I really wish that someone would've told me how much more efficient it would be 3 years ago.
I really wish that someone would've told me how much more efficient it would be 3 years ago.
Chargemaster all the way. I will be ice skating with the devil before I go back to a beam scale.
My ES is usually about 20 and my SD's are almost always single digit. Rarely I've seen low teen SD. This is using a Magneto Speed V2 chrono. Loading for 6 Creedmoor, .260Rem or 7 SAUM.
Match loading? I use a powder measure.
You? Whatever gives you more confidence. You're the one that has to "know" that your ammunition is the best.
Unless someone does a double-blind study, they won't know what really improved their groups or if it was just their own confidence. See Hawthorne effect and psychology of the individual. Also, note that many such studies are still conducted without the benefit of double-blind to eliminate individual's reaction to be monitored.
Beam or digital? I bought an Ainsworth electronic back in the late '70s or early '80s and never looked back. Scale still works.
Almost all my weighing is currently done with the scale of my CM. Load work-up is done using the CM, since it can dispense a charge faster than I can adjust the powder measure.
However, unless maybe you are shooting long-distance rifle, you will not see a difference on target from a powder measure or weighing. Last I heard, most bench rest shooters still loaded by volume and not weight.
You? Whatever gives you more confidence. You're the one that has to "know" that your ammunition is the best.
Unless someone does a double-blind study, they won't know what really improved their groups or if it was just their own confidence. See Hawthorne effect and psychology of the individual. Also, note that many such studies are still conducted without the benefit of double-blind to eliminate individual's reaction to be monitored.
Beam or digital? I bought an Ainsworth electronic back in the late '70s or early '80s and never looked back. Scale still works.
Almost all my weighing is currently done with the scale of my CM. Load work-up is done using the CM, since it can dispense a charge faster than I can adjust the powder measure.
However, unless maybe you are shooting long-distance rifle, you will not see a difference on target from a powder measure or weighing. Last I heard, most bench rest shooters still loaded by volume and not weight.
i think im going to give the gempro 250 a try with a trickler and a rcbs powder measure, i just got a magnetospeed v3 and i am getting an es of 80 with my chargemaster and not really happy with it.
chargemaster. It is hands down the best method... now if only I could get the fucking thing to stop throwing 1/10 of a grain over...
^^^^ This. I use barney's loading room for my ammo and my last chrono results for my .260 was ES of 5 and an SD of 2. So I'd say the chargemaster works and way faster than trickling each one at a time.
CM here too. Loaded for years now, and have used all sorts of balance beam and digital scales to verify charge weights on my Dillon presses for handgun loads and every load for long range. Came to a conclusion--takes to damn long.
Finally last year I got the charge master--still wondering why I took me so long to break down and buy one. Love it.
Finally last year I got the charge master--still wondering why I took me so long to break down and buy one. Love it.
This is an interesting topic. I have always thought about a Charge Master but I think I am moving forward with not using a beam Scale but using a digital scale. Does the CM work well with all types of powders to include the long extruded like IMR 4064?
If you have reloaded for some time you all know that not all types of powders throw the exact same and some are just a joy and others...well, just a pain in the butt. With the powder deficiency in the market, I have had to result to using what is out in the market to purchase, which lately has been IMR 4064. And, that is a pain to use but it does give me fast numbers with low ES but takes twice as long to load than a ball powder like AA 2520 or Win 748.
If you have reloaded for some time you all know that not all types of powders throw the exact same and some are just a joy and others...well, just a pain in the butt. With the powder deficiency in the market, I have had to result to using what is out in the market to purchase, which lately has been IMR 4064. And, that is a pain to use but it does give me fast numbers with low ES but takes twice as long to load than a ball powder like AA 2520 or Win 748.
I used a Lyman DPS III first - endless frustration.
Recently bought the CM - what a pleasure!
As far as overthrowing is concerned - look up the "straw Modification" - you basically stick a piece of a thickish diameter cold drink straw into the dispensing tube. This provides a smooth surface for the powder to move over, thereby preventing clumping especially with extruded powder, which usually results in overthrows.
I get about 1-3 overthrows per 100 throws, which I find to be acceptable.
Recently bought the CM - what a pleasure!
As far as overthrowing is concerned - look up the "straw Modification" - you basically stick a piece of a thickish diameter cold drink straw into the dispensing tube. This provides a smooth surface for the powder to move over, thereby preventing clumping especially with extruded powder, which usually results in overthrows.
I get about 1-3 overthrows per 100 throws, which I find to be acceptable.
I'm happy with my Chargemaster - it works just fine. I played with a Satorius for a while, but it drifted too much to be useful. I have heard the GemPro 250 does not. The trick with the Chargemaster is setup. Of course there is the McDs straw trick, which helps a lot and the ability to get into the menus and retune the scale to run faster is a plus too. One thing I have noticed is the angle of the drop tube is important. The unit has to sit level on the bench to get the right drop tube angle. If the drop tube is pointed down too much you'll get a lot of overthrows and a lot of inconsistancy. There are adjustable feet on the bottom that you can use to adjust this. Believe it or not, fine tuning the front-back angle of the unit will make a difference.
As far as accuracy, it is +/- .1gr. I verified that with the Satorius. However, if you have tuned your load and are on an accuracy node, you can still get low SDs and ESs.
I still get some overthrows. It's not a big deal as I just scoop out a few kernals until I get the weight I am looking for. On the rare underthrow, just gently tap the drop tube to drop a kernal at a time to bring it up to your charge weight. Always wait for to se the weight displayed after the counter and that the arrow pointing to stable is on. YMMV.
As far as accuracy, it is +/- .1gr. I verified that with the Satorius. However, if you have tuned your load and are on an accuracy node, you can still get low SDs and ESs.
I still get some overthrows. It's not a big deal as I just scoop out a few kernals until I get the weight I am looking for. On the rare underthrow, just gently tap the drop tube to drop a kernal at a time to bring it up to your charge weight. Always wait for to se the weight displayed after the counter and that the arrow pointing to stable is on. YMMV.
I use both. The extruded powders leave a lot to be desired if using the CM and the weight thrown can vary. With Varget, I'll throw .1 of a grain light on the CM and transfer and true the weight on the beam while the CM is cycling another load. Charge weights are very accurate with low ES and SD. Other times with ball powders, I just go with the CM and it's close enough. Using the straw has helped with the extruded powders but there's still some variation. YMMV
Great responses guys. Keep 'em coming.
Enjoy your future frustration...
I agree with this. I found I could load faster with a Lee PPM and a Redding trickler as opposed to the CM. Not a fan of the CM.
Pen top upgrade eliminated all my 1/10 grain overcharges. Tested 10 rounds after a match on a magnetospeed v2 and had a SD of 10 fps in an ar15 long range setup. Very, Very,Very happy with the chargemaster after the pen top upgrade.
Do you care to elaborate on this
Pen top upgrade? What type of pen? I've tried the straw trick.
Tried to find the youtube of it. Found it on site somewhere. You use one of those old bic pens where the ink tube come out of the shank of the pen. What I had to do was slide the tapered pen top into a straw and put one round of tape on it and slide it into the tube on the CM. It slides in and out so I can use it without if needed. Has stopped all of my overthrows with varget. It slows down the throwing a little but for the accuracy and not time lost to overthrows I think I can wait.
Chargemasters are very sensitive to the type of powder used. That's why you see such widely varying opinions. The stock configuration works great with some powders and terribly with others. I like mine, but it's a luxury not a necessity.
It tapers down so when throwing varget, it will not throw multiple grains at a time when it goes to trickle mode. Only will throw 1-2 grains each movement when it trickles.
I used a CM for a couple years, it's a vast improvement over in speed only versus a beam scale trickling, accuracy is hard to maintain for long periods of time using a beam scale trickling method, human nature is the blame. I realize what ever system your using works, but I want to caution against using cheap electronic scales from China, even the supposedly great GemPro 250 with its warranty, and I want to caution on the latest beam scales like the Mexican made 10-10. Super accurate consistently repeatable ammo that is used to Win high level matches have two things in common, the powder charge is in the center of the sweet spot, and it's weighed to the kernel using a 1000 dollar plus scale like a GD503, or a Gen 2 Prometheus. My advice is to develop a load that is right in the sweet spot, Dan Newberry OCW or Eric Cortina method from 6mmBR will teach you how to, later invest in a high dollar scale, don't fall in to the sucker trap and spend yourself into a pit first, having the cool toys first doesn't make you a Match Champ.
Thank you for the visual and following post with explanation.
How does this mod effect the speed of total drop?
Another question.... Are your CMs plugged into power conditioners?
When I tried it, it almost doubled the drop time.
I have a gempro as well but it's a strain gauge style so it does drift and is very slow to respond, so it's frustrating to trickle on.
Now I drop ~.1gn low with PPM, tap the auto trickle button a few times, and I'm done, rinse and repeat. It sounds slow to those that haven't tried it with a fast scale or even at all, but I'm telling you, the only thing faster (and only thing I haven't tested) would be a Prometheus.
The idea of the CM charging while you are seating sounds nice until you do both on the same bench, then that causes all kinds of issues. I was close to mounting it on the wall above the bench to isolate it but gave up on it before that.
At the end of the day, whatever floats your boat is what you should do.
I prefer the 1,000k stuff and the brass takes much longer than the charging no matter what I do, but I definitely don't have to worry about vertical due to charging issues.
Last lastly, somewhere I have a target that has 5 different groups at 100 in .5gn increments, I haven't measured it but if memory serves, all the groups look good and they are in the same area with respect to the bull. When I backed up to 250, things changed, which is why I stopped the 100yd stuff.
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Yep, the conditioner did help, I recommend for any scale
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It does add a little extra time to the drop. You can also reprogram the CM to speed it up(a lot of Youtube on this). I have only been loading 25 grains since the mod so no real need to speed it up. When I start back loading for the 308 I may reprogram. My CM sits on an isolated portion of my bench and I seat the previously charged round while the CM is charging the next. It is done usually before I get the bullet seated and checked OAL.
No Problem
Chargemaster with the McDonalds straw mod.
Here is a link to the video explaining how to reprogram the Chargemaster settings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DRJCL0D3A
And the post on another forum explaining all the reprogramming settings: Speed Up Your RCBS ChargeMaster within AccurateShooter.com
Here is a link to the video explaining how to reprogram the Chargemaster settings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DRJCL0D3A
And the post on another forum explaining all the reprogramming settings: Speed Up Your RCBS ChargeMaster within AccurateShooter.com
I load 4064 with it. It is not perfect but with a McDonalds straw in the end of the dispensing tube cut in the shape of a crown the overcharges are brought to a minimum.
I tried the reprogramming but didn't like the results so I returned the programming to factory.
I don't compete so spending a few thousand on a Prometheus is out of the question for me so Chargemaster it is.
