I need help deciding what to do next to lower ES. Shooting a .300 Win Mag PSS, winchester brass all prepped minus weighing and neck turning, RL-22, Berger 210's, Federal 215 LRM. Every charge is weighed on calibrated scale. I have worked from 67.5 gr to 71 gr and can't get my ES under the high 60's. At 71 gr I also had horrible accuaracy. Should I try different primers, start at the best ES I have and adjust OAL, weigh and sort cases? I haven't noticed any difference in once fired, or new brass. I am full sizing all brass with no crimp.
chasing ES Now what?
- Thread starter 300rk
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Re: chasing ES Now what?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1lnbrdg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bullet are you using? I've found that extremem spread goes down with the heaver/longer the bullet is.
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He said Berger 210's.
To the OP, have you tried any other powders. H1000??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1lnbrdg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What bullet are you using? I've found that extremem spread goes down with the heaver/longer the bullet is.
</div></div>
He said Berger 210's.
To the OP, have you tried any other powders. H1000??
Re: chasing ES Now what?
I have not tried different powders for the 210's. I was shooting 4831 with 190's, but that was before I got serious about long range and I was not shooting over a chrono. I have read that people get low ES with RL22, but I am not opposed to a different powder. Would you keep everything else the same and try the H1000 at this point?
I have not tried different powders for the 210's. I was shooting 4831 with 190's, but that was before I got serious about long range and I was not shooting over a chrono. I have read that people get low ES with RL22, but I am not opposed to a different powder. Would you keep everything else the same and try the H1000 at this point?
Re: chasing ES Now what?
My buddy is getting sub 40fps ES with the same setup excpet he is using 4831SC.
Terry
My buddy is getting sub 40fps ES with the same setup excpet he is using 4831SC.
Terry
Re: chasing ES Now what?
R22 is a good powder, and should yield low ES for your brass and bullet combination. I've used this personally. I would increase the powder charge in small increments up to about 71.5 and maybe up to 72+, while watching for pressure signs.
Also, if you have neck turned the cases and they have different neck thicknesses and tensions, it will cause less/more pressure and effect the ES. I would also check this.
Another aspect could be your chrono, and what chrono you are using. Is the sun coming in at an angle to your shooting location? Some chrono's are more sensistive to the lighting angle. And, how slow are you firing these test rounds? If the barrel is very hot, I normally get higher ES numbers than when it's cool. When testing loads, I shoot 1 round about every minute, and no more than 5 at one time before the barrel needs to cool.
If this doesn't work, I'd switch to H1000, and even look at Retumbo.
R22 is a good powder, and should yield low ES for your brass and bullet combination. I've used this personally. I would increase the powder charge in small increments up to about 71.5 and maybe up to 72+, while watching for pressure signs.
Also, if you have neck turned the cases and they have different neck thicknesses and tensions, it will cause less/more pressure and effect the ES. I would also check this.
Another aspect could be your chrono, and what chrono you are using. Is the sun coming in at an angle to your shooting location? Some chrono's are more sensistive to the lighting angle. And, how slow are you firing these test rounds? If the barrel is very hot, I normally get higher ES numbers than when it's cool. When testing loads, I shoot 1 round about every minute, and no more than 5 at one time before the barrel needs to cool.
If this doesn't work, I'd switch to H1000, and even look at Retumbo.
Re: chasing ES Now what?
I have gone up .5 grain at a time up to 71 with no improvement. I am shooting over the basic shooting chrony. I have often wondered about the accuracy of these. I did just read a "good" chrono will give an accuaracy error of .005 fPS, so a cheap one could be worse. I suppose at around 2700FPS a good chrono could be off 13 FPS or more and a cheap one? I guess I could get the best ES I can and check it by shooting at distance. I do let my barrel cool, or rather not get hot or evan warm to the touch while shooting over the chrono. At the cost of bergers these days I don't want to spend much more time hucking rounds over the chrono, but I do want it right!
I have gone up .5 grain at a time up to 71 with no improvement. I am shooting over the basic shooting chrony. I have often wondered about the accuracy of these. I did just read a "good" chrono will give an accuaracy error of .005 fPS, so a cheap one could be worse. I suppose at around 2700FPS a good chrono could be off 13 FPS or more and a cheap one? I guess I could get the best ES I can and check it by shooting at distance. I do let my barrel cool, or rather not get hot or evan warm to the touch while shooting over the chrono. At the cost of bergers these days I don't want to spend much more time hucking rounds over the chrono, but I do want it right!
Re: chasing ES Now what?
I had similar problems when borrowing a friends Chrony. I picked up an Oehler 35p and my problems went away. The Chrony just does not have the accuracy to reliably measure ES/SD in my opinion. It is probably OK for giving an estimate of the mean velocity. The Oehler gives a proof velocity via a 3rd screen. It is expensive, but there is a reason ammunition manufacturers, the shooting press, and the military use the Oehler chronograph! It works!
I had similar problems when borrowing a friends Chrony. I picked up an Oehler 35p and my problems went away. The Chrony just does not have the accuracy to reliably measure ES/SD in my opinion. It is probably OK for giving an estimate of the mean velocity. The Oehler gives a proof velocity via a 3rd screen. It is expensive, but there is a reason ammunition manufacturers, the shooting press, and the military use the Oehler chronograph! It works!
Re: chasing ES Now what?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300rk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have gone up .5 grain at a time up to 71 with no improvement. I am shooting over the basic shooting chrony. I have often wondered about the accuracy of these. I did just read a "good" chrono will give an accuaracy error of .005 fPS, so a cheap one could be worse. I suppose at around 2700FPS a good chrono could be off 13 FPS or more and a cheap one? I guess I could get the best ES I can and check it by shooting at distance. I do let my barrel cool, or rather not get hot or evan warm to the touch while shooting over the chrono. At the cost of bergers these days I don't want to spend much more time hucking rounds over the chrono, but I do want it right! </div></div>
.5 grain spread is too high. I'd be doing 3-4 round groups in .2 or .3 grain increments. You should be able to get up into the 71.5 and maybe a little over 72 before you see pressure. Every 300WM I've played with likes to run at max or just over book max loads. You need to go over the 71 grain loads. I'd also take the chono numbers with a grain of salt. I used to have a cheap chrono, and they are very hard to work with.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300rk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have gone up .5 grain at a time up to 71 with no improvement. I am shooting over the basic shooting chrony. I have often wondered about the accuracy of these. I did just read a "good" chrono will give an accuaracy error of .005 fPS, so a cheap one could be worse. I suppose at around 2700FPS a good chrono could be off 13 FPS or more and a cheap one? I guess I could get the best ES I can and check it by shooting at distance. I do let my barrel cool, or rather not get hot or evan warm to the touch while shooting over the chrono. At the cost of bergers these days I don't want to spend much more time hucking rounds over the chrono, but I do want it right! </div></div>
.5 grain spread is too high. I'd be doing 3-4 round groups in .2 or .3 grain increments. You should be able to get up into the 71.5 and maybe a little over 72 before you see pressure. Every 300WM I've played with likes to run at max or just over book max loads. You need to go over the 71 grain loads. I'd also take the chono numbers with a grain of salt. I used to have a cheap chrono, and they are very hard to work with.
Re: chasing ES Now what?
Working with the 300Win and RL-22 I have found it likes to be shot near maximum velocity. As ChadTRg suggested I can see a big change in groups size with a 0.5 grain load change so smaller increments are in order.
Have you shot an OCW test with the components in question?
How far off or into the lands are you?
Unless the lighting was uneven on the Chrony screens your velocity variation results will be right.
Make sure no direct sunlight gets on the screen holes and your variation results will be as good as any Chrono.....I own the Chrony, CED, and until recently an Oehler 43..The Chrony works fine for velocity variation and works well enough for actual velocity so long as you set it up right.
Also if your Chrony tripod is wiggly (in the slightest) back it off a few more feet and try to make it as secure as possible.
Working with the 300Win and RL-22 I have found it likes to be shot near maximum velocity. As ChadTRg suggested I can see a big change in groups size with a 0.5 grain load change so smaller increments are in order.
Have you shot an OCW test with the components in question?
How far off or into the lands are you?
Unless the lighting was uneven on the Chrony screens your velocity variation results will be right.
Make sure no direct sunlight gets on the screen holes and your variation results will be as good as any Chrono.....I own the Chrony, CED, and until recently an Oehler 43..The Chrony works fine for velocity variation and works well enough for actual velocity so long as you set it up right.
Also if your Chrony tripod is wiggly (in the slightest) back it off a few more feet and try to make it as secure as possible.
Re: chasing ES Now what?
I have not shot an "official" OCW test. I'm .020" off the lands. When shooting 69 grains my accuracy was great, minus the ES, recoil was extremely pleasant compared to 71 grains, but again the high ES is not going to cut it. I agree with you that the chrony setup should not cause a consistant error. The error of the chrony itself may, but not different variations in light, etc.
It seems almost all the data for similar loads with RL-22 like to be near max. Would 4831 allow me to be lower than max with better ES results. Again thanks for all the help, and I'll keep reading.
I have not shot an "official" OCW test. I'm .020" off the lands. When shooting 69 grains my accuracy was great, minus the ES, recoil was extremely pleasant compared to 71 grains, but again the high ES is not going to cut it. I agree with you that the chrony setup should not cause a consistant error. The error of the chrony itself may, but not different variations in light, etc.
It seems almost all the data for similar loads with RL-22 like to be near max. Would 4831 allow me to be lower than max with better ES results. Again thanks for all the help, and I'll keep reading.
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