Chevy is fucking retarded.

308pirate

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As much as I like Ford vehicles (its a family thing) (the company itself kind of sucks, just a little less than GM) The fact is most "foreign" vehicles are more USA than the "USA" vehicles. Again Unions being just as greedy and more corrupt than corporations.
Maybe I told you this before if so I apologize. For five years I worked as engineering manager at a Honda supplier here in Ohio. I got to tour the Anna engine plant and the Russells Point transmission plant, both of which feed most of the Honda north American operations including the massive Marysville assembly plant from which almost all Accords on this side of the world come from.

Then earlier this year I got me one. The only thing that isn't domestic on this car is the manual transmission which came from a Honda plant in India.

This car is phenomenal

Accord 2.jpg

Accord inside.jpg

The red car you can see through the windshield is a 2010 Fit (made in Japan) that has just under 1/4 million miles. I've to fix a few minor things and not until it passed 195,000 miles. Now my daughter drives it around.
 

Jscb1b

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The average vehicle now a days has over 14 computers . And that is just the processing or control modules. If you lower you expectations of "computer" it would be pushing over 100 devices with a circuit board.
The "computers " IE control modules themselves are actually very very reliable. If your mechanic says you need a new "computer" i would make them prove it. Although mid 2000 to mid 2010's ABS computers do have a somewhat higher than normal failure rate. Also don't forget about the Ford 6.0 FICM problem.
Rodents eating wiring harness is a problem. The insulation is made of soy products.
 
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Sniperwannabee

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all over see below:
The red car you can see through the windshield is a 2010 Fit (made in Japan) that has just under 1/4 million miles. I've to fix a few minor things and not until it passed 195,000 miles. Now my daughter drives it around.
That’s nothing this beauty which I just gave a rolled on rust oleum paint job has 400k. 🤣1D493591-D3C9-4FA4-9550-C9F0897B23CC.jpeg
 

E. Bryant

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Pdi's are pencil whipped by most so it's quick, easy money for them.
I know how they are done. The point is that for the amount of money that the dealer makes on each transaction, maybe they should take just a few moments to address "known issues".
 

2ndamendfan

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Maybe I told you this before if so I apologize. For five years I worked as engineering manager at a Honda supplier here in Ohio. I got to tour the Anna engine plant and the Russells Point transmission plant, both of which feed most of the Honda north American operations including the massive Marysville assembly plant from which almost all Accords on this side of the world come from.

Then earlier this year I got me one. The only thing that isn't domestic on this car is the manual transmission which came from a Honda plant in India.

This car is phenomenal

View attachment 7423243

View attachment 7423248

The red car you can see through the windshield is a 2010 Fit (made in Japan) that has just under 1/4 million miles. I've to fix a few minor things and not until it passed 195,000 miles. Now my daughter drives it around.
I will never say Honda makes crap, I just can't do it. 94 year old grandpa fought in the Pacific if you get my drift.
I will say that Honda seems to be the manufacturer that rarely puts quality last. Even Toyota has had a few (more) missteps.
 
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E. Bryant

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The average vehicle now a days has over 14 computers . And that is just the processing or control modules. If you lower you expectations of "computer" it would be pushing over 100 devices with a circuit board.
The "computers " IE control modules themselves are actually very very reliable. If your mechanic says you need a new "computer" i would make them prove it. Although mid 2000 to mid 2010's ABS computers do have a somewhat higher than normal failure rate. Also don't forget about the Ford 6.0 FICM problem.
Yes, electronics in modern vehicles are very reliable - especially ones related to safety functions (ISO 26262 suggests a hardware mean time between failures of 1e8 hours for the most safety-critical functions).

Wiring and connectors, on the other hand, are a different story. As are charging systems.

It should be noted that everything has a finite lifespan, and certain electronic components - particularly electrolytic capacitors - simply do not last forever. This is often compounded by charging system problems. The FICM is a good example of a part that was subjected to abnormal heat and vibration (by virtue of mounting location) and is probably a marginal design even with a perfect charging system. Add in the usual degradation of batteries and wiring as the vehicle ages, and it simply becomes unable to perform its very difficult job (increasing DC voltage by a factor of 4 to power a transient load is not a trivial task). The electrolytic caps are the first to give up (due to a combination of electrical, mechanical, and thermal stress), and then things fall apart quickly after that point since DC boost converters don't work well without capacitance. A bit of diagnostic software would go a long ways towards alerting the driver that the FICM had degraded and is approaching failure, but for some dumb reason Ford never implemented this and so the driver is surprised when the module shits its pants at some random moment, well after one or more of the phases were already dead.

Long story short - modules usually don't die, but rather are murdered. The effects of a single poor connection anywhere in the charging system can result in some extremely nasty voltage spikes (us engineers refer to them as "load dumps", which is the result of current in the inductive alternator windings not being able to find a path to the battery when a circuit momentarily goes open), and modules really don't like this even when they're designed to withstand it.
 

nikonNUT

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When I mentioned I was looking for a new truck the owner of my company told me I should get a Dodge. "They're great" he said. "Not in a million fucking years." I told him. When he asked why not I told him that after the Obama bail out and how bad it fucked over regular folks there was no way. Same goes for GM... I'll probably end up with a Tundra TRD Pro crew max... 'Course I could go full on hippie and grab a Nikola Badger (assuming they come out!)
Badger.jpg
 
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adubeau

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Had a '07 Colorado before - valves went out and it took about a month for the dealer to get the parts - covered under warranty (covered rental car).. once fixed I got rid of it was not dealing that shit again.
 
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2ndamendfan

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Yes, electronics in modern vehicles are very reliable - especially ones related to safety functions (ISO 26262 suggests a hardware mean time between failures of 1e8 hours for the most safety-critical functions).

Wiring and connectors, on the other hand, are a different story. As are charging systems.

It should be noted that everything has a finite lifespan, and certain electronic components - particularly electrolytic capacitors - simply do not last forever. This is often compounded by charging system problems. The FICM is a good example of a part that was subjected to abnormal heat and vibration (by virtue of mounting location) and is probably a marginal design even with a perfect charging system. Add in the usual degradation of batteries and wiring as the vehicle ages, and it simply becomes unable to perform its very difficult job (increasing DC voltage by a factor of 4 to power a transient load is not a trivial task). The electrolytic caps are the first to give up (due to a combination of electrical, mechanical, and thermal stress), and then things fall apart quickly after that point since DC boost converters don't work well without capacitance. A bit of diagnostic software would go a long ways towards alerting the driver that the FICM had degraded and is approaching failure, but for some dumb reason Ford never implemented this and so the driver is surprised when the module shits its pants at some random moment, well after one or more of the phases were already dead.

Long story short - modules usually don't die, but rather are murdered. The effects of a single poor connection anywhere in the charging system can result in some extremely nasty voltage spikes (us engineers refer to them as "load dumps", which is the result of current in the inductive alternator windings not being able to find a path to the battery when a circuit momentarily goes open), and modules really don't like this even when they're designed to withstand it.
Okay smart MOFO (respect fully) geez that was over my head a little.

I will say this on the 6.0. I used to know a couple engineers at Navistar
and the 6.0 Ford got was NOT the 6.0 they wanted. This was 2 fold, Navistar engineering wanted a few more things that would have helped a shit ton, than the Navistar bean counters were willing to allow.

Also the 6.0 that Ford "authorized" is not quite the same as the 6.0 Navistar engineered. The Navistar version had quite a bit better success than the Ford version.

The issue is Ford sales 10x that Navistar does so Fords 6.0 ruined the 6.0 across the board. HELL I can't figure out why GM made a 6.0 gas engine just because 6.0 will always be connected to crap.
 

308pirate

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I will never say Honda makes crap, I just can't do it. 94 year old grandpa fought in the Pacific if you get my drift.
I do

FWIW, Honda Motor Company is the only current Japanese automaker (and they make far more than cars, as some know) that did not exist in any way until after WW2.
 
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EddieNFL

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Okay smart MOFO (respect fully) geez that was over my head a little.

I will say this on the 6.0. I used to know a couple engineers at Navistar
and the 6.0 Ford got was NOT the 6.0 they wanted. This was 2 fold, Navistar engineering wanted a few more things that would have helped a shit ton, than the Navistar bean counters were willing to allow.

Also the 6.0 that Ford "authorized" is not quite the same as the 6.0 Navistar engineered. The Navistar version had quite a bit better success than the Ford version.

The issue is Ford sales 10x that Navistar does so Fords 6.0 ruined the 6.0 across the board. HELL I can't figure out why GM made a 6.0 gas engine just because 6.0 will always be connected to crap.
Used to be an International service center. One of the "traveling" engineers told me Ford demanded more HP than feasible. IIRC this was gained via the fuel system/compression. Heads were a common failure with the Ford version. The VT 365 was as reliable as any other diesel.
 

benchmstr

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hahaha if loose cables disturbs you, just wait until your transmission lines shit out going down a highway.

better yet, the 2010-2016 duramax had a cp4 fuel pump....you could literally be sitting at a red light and the truck would simply turn itself off....then the mechanic politely informs you that the factory fuel pump was never built for modern low sulfur diesel and it grenades your whole engine......instant $12k bare minimum.

ford has the same pump on their 6.7 powerstroke, but they installed a factory lift pump and rectified the problem.

bench
 

E. Bryant

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Okay smart MOFO (respect fully) geez that was over my head a little.

I will say this on the 6.0. I used to know a couple engineers at Navistar
and the 6.0 Ford got was NOT the 6.0 they wanted. This was 2 fold, Navistar engineering wanted a few more things that would have helped a shit ton, than the Navistar bean counters were willing to allow.

Also the 6.0 that Ford "authorized" is not quite the same as the 6.0 Navistar engineered. The Navistar version had quite a bit better success than the Ford version.

The issue is Ford sales 10x that Navistar does so Fords 6.0 ruined the 6.0 across the board. HELL I can't figure out why GM made a 6.0 gas engine just because 6.0 will always be connected to crap.
Just so we're all clear, I own a Ford van with a 6.0 Power Stroke, so this should establish I ain't all that smart 😜 I also actively pursued a career in the automotive industry, and while it's certainly been good to me, the same effort applied elsewhere may certainly have resulted in more prosperity with less hair loss. At this point, I strongly resemble the Brian Cranston meme:

memes_about_engineers_before_after_resize_md.jpg

Many of the problems with the 6.0 were indeed induced by Ford. Parts (like the FICM) could have been built more robustly, and better diagnostics could have been developed to alert the user of latent failures that had not yet developed into major problems (note that the 6.4 suffered from a similar lack of diagnostics, and that wasn't fixed until nearly three years after Job 1 if I recall correctly). Navistar also contributed some design weaknesses and manufacturing problems (like leftover casting sand in the water jacket) that combined to create problems like oil cooler failures. And then owners and dealers failed to perform basic maintenance checks that would have given warming of developing problems (much can be learned simply by observing the level and condition of coolant in the degas bottle). In short, the whole thing was a clusterfuck, and while I won't attribute blame to a single party, Ford does get to bear the burden since they were ultimately responsible for integrating the powerplant into the complete vehicle.

Most problems with modern vehicles aren't quite as legendary, but they result from the same basic set of original sins. Sometimes the responsible design engineers aren't all that bright or experienced (most parts on a modern vehicle come from suppliers, and it's common to assign young rookie engineers to the task of supervising those suppliers). Sometimes the bean counters win. Sometimes the assembly plant finds new ways to do things wrong. Sometimes everyone finds their hands tied by regulation. And sometimes the engineering gods decide to teach everyone a lesson about how tough it is to make a part last a quarter-million miles in conditions that would make any other consumer durable good fail in 1/100th the time.
 

Srgt. Hulka

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I have never, nor shall I ever, own a GM product. Same with Dodge.
I grew up with Ford, however, I'm currently driving a 2016 Toyota Tundra with 58,000 miles on it. It will be paid off in December. All I've ever done to it, besides the regular 5000 mile service, was replace the windshield wipers and the air filters. No recalls, nothing.
 

2ndamendfan

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Just so we're all clear, I own a Ford van with a 6.0 Power Stroke, so this should establish I ain't all that smart 😜
Holy hell you own what I call "Satan's vehicle" yea I am taking back the smart MOFO comment ;).

The "casting sand" isn't left over from manufacture. It is silicate "drop out" from the coolant. The gold coolant has silicate "suspended" in the solution and the chemicals that do that degrade. Then the silicate settles out. It happens to all the Ford vehicles that used it from 2001-2010. I see F150's with 1/2 inch of that crap in the baffles of the coolant bottle.

The 6.0 PSD and 6.4 PSD oil coolers just have really tiny passages that the silicate can plug, at that point it can get ugly. Much of that was because Ford claimed the coolant could last 100,000 miles. Try telling a customer they need a coolant flush at 50k miles when the manual says 100k. But they call me a "crook" when I do that.

I am pretty sure Navistar did not use that coolant.
 

E. Bryant

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Holy hell you own what I call "Satan's vehicle" yea I am taking back the smart MOFO comment ;).

The "casting sand" isn't left over from manufacture. It is silicate "drop out" from the coolant. The gold coolant has silicate "suspended" in the solution and the chemicals that do that degrade. Then the silicate settles out. It happens to all the Ford vehicles that used it from 2001-2010. I see F150's with 1/2 inch of that crap in the baffles of the coolant bottle.

The 6.0 PSD and 6.4 PSD oil coolers just have really tiny passages that the silicate can plug, at that point it can get ugly. Much of that was because Ford claimed the coolant could last 100,000 miles. Try telling a customer they need a coolant flush at 50k miles when the manual says 100k. But they call me a "crook" when I do that.

I am pretty sure Navistar did not use that coolant.
Silica coolant sucks. I run Shell ELC in all my vehicles. Perhaps it has some other shortcoming that will eventually kick me in the nuts, but so far it's been good to me.
 

Mister Ridge

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The transfer case on my Silverado went out first time I used it. Replaced under warranty but still. It's been fine since but I hate the way it drives. I've been trying to find a Super Duty but can't find one that matches my desires.

I think I'd swear to never own another GM product were it not for a select few vehicles that no one else makes.
 

chevy_man

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Okay smart MOFO (respect fully) geez that was over my head a little.

I will say this on the 6.0. I used to know a couple engineers at Navistar
and the 6.0 Ford got was NOT the 6.0 they wanted. This was 2 fold, Navistar engineering wanted a few more things that would have helped a shit ton, than the Navistar bean counters were willing to allow.

Also the 6.0 that Ford "authorized" is not quite the same as the 6.0 Navistar engineered. The Navistar version had quite a bit better success than the Ford version.

The issue is Ford sales 10x that Navistar does so Fords 6.0 ruined the 6.0 across the board. HELL I can't figure out why GM made a 6.0 gas engine just because 6.0 will always be connected to crap.

You realize that Chevy had the 6.0 gasser out for a few years before the ps 6.0?


If I could get Chevy drivetrain and comfort with the durability of the Ford interior I'd be happy.

We went from superduty to Duramax trucks because the cost of ownership over the first 250k miles penciled out far better. The first 100k Ford had the edge, but the Chevy's ended up pulling ahead.

This was owning about 30-40 trucks from the big 3. We still have a couple 07 5.9 Cummins trucks, and we cycled out a bunch of 300k+ mile Duramax's. We never kept a power stroke past 200k because of catastrophic failure.

This was our in house experience. We have been lucky to not get a lemon from anyone but Ford so far.
 

Aries256

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Just to be clear, neither Daimler, FIAT or Peugeot are Dodges.
But dodges had mercedes transmissions, Have fiat engines and guess what soon to be peugeot parts. Heheheh good luck. The only good part in a Dodge is the Cummins, hold onto it when the rest of the truck falls apart
 

ofelas

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Like I said, Dodges don't have foreign parts.

They have NV & Torqueflite transmissions, NP transfer cases, Dana axles, and domestic V8s/Cummins inline 6's.

There is not a single outsourced body part, drivetrain/driveline component or electrical item in my Dodge.

Daimler, FIAT & Peugeot may vary ;-)
 

ofelas

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In 1989?

Did you not get my reference to vintage Dana/NV/NP or are you thick in the head?

BWAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAA

Sure, right. You'd be surprised what came from China and eastern Europe, even from "American" suppliers.
 
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Sean the Nailer

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Not for nothing, and just throwing it out there, but we're still running a '99 F150 here. 4x4, extended cab. I gotta say, the HOOD is in great shape, and after all these years, just a few pits from flying rocks on the highway. To be expected,and completely understood. It is/was made out of aluminum.

The rest of the truck, though, is a cancer-cluster. I don't think that there is a single panel/piece/door that isn't eaten away. The only thing holding the truck together is the dirt on the outside. Sure as hell isn't the paint.

The drive-train I truly gotta say is incredible and extra-reliable. I have to add, that this particular vehicle is the "problem-less'est" of any vehicle I've owned. We here are VERY grateful for the reliability of it. Now if only the damned thing wouldn't be dissolving itself into obscurity. Pretty-soon, it's only going to be a frame with a drive-train and a few lawn-chairs strapped down. And an aerodynamic hood to deflect the bugs and the wind.

Probably need a lap-blanket in the coming winters.

DeLorean had the stainless-steel technology back in the 70's, no? Why is it that they ain't ALL doing that today? Or 2 decades ago? Lets keep building disposable automobiles,,,, people have nothing but money to throw away.
 

E. Bryant

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In 1989?

Did you not get my reference to vintage Dana/NV/NP or are you thick in the head?
What's "vintage" about Dana and New Venture Gear? Those are both current suppliers to the industry.

This particular post appears to be the first place you decided to specify a model year. 1989 likely pre-dates overseas sourcing. Good luck keeping your truck that way (hint: look carefully at the box the next time you buy something from, say, Timken).

He’s likely googling overseas suppliers for late 80s/early 90s Dodges as we speak.
Cute contribution. Wanna add anything of substance? Figured as much.
 

Marinevet1

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It's a Chevy..........I would expect no less. I've got a 2011 Ford F150, 5.0L, 4 X 4, 234,000 miles, and I still would take it anywhere in the US. I've kept up on the regular maintenance, and will drive it until I retire in a little less than a year. And then I will buy a new one.
 

ofelas

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What's "vintage about Dana & NV/NP" - is that I referenced those non outsourced parts in my post with the 30yr old truck pic - several posts above yours.

Reading comprehension is key.

I see where you initially typed out "Timkin", and later corrected it to Timken" - so yes, TicTacTex's "google analogy" was accurate.

I have no victualing problems with my domestic NOS Timken/NV/NP/Spicer/Dana/Bendix/Blue Streak spare parts.
Don’t need “good luck” - if nothing else, this site should have taught you about preparing in our own small way, as opposed to letting folks pass us by.

Come back to me in 30 years if your globalist lowest bidder ride is still your daily driver.

If one doesn't have the mechanical skills or wherewithal to keep something running, I fully understand caving in to OBD ports, & replacing, rather than diagnosing, parts failures. Or taking it in to the dealership "technicians" to obey "warranty protocols".

Myself, I cotton with self reliance & busted knuckles; to each his own.

What's "vintage" about Dana and New Venture Gear? Those are both current suppliers to the industry.

This particular post appears to be the first place you decided to specify a model year. 1989 likely pre-dates overseas sourcing. Good luck keeping your truck that way (hint: look carefully at the box the next time you buy something from, say, Timken.
"Silicated", not "silica" or "sand castings" Mopar MS9769/Ford/Mercedes coolant all follow the basic G05 formula, with different dyes.

Try a coolant filter. If that doesn't heal your 6.0, here's what the likely issue is -



IMG_6401.jpeg
 
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Formosan

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GM is going to look dumb and incompetent when the EV Nicola company is found to be nothing more than a giant fraud.
 

sirhrmechanic

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Bravo Fiat... you even managed to screw up floormats!

Sirhr
 

sirhrmechanic

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Give me a chevy powertrain on a ford chassis with a dodge cab built in a toyota plant. 😒
The ultimate car in the world would be Engineered by the British, styled by the Italians and built by the Germans. The worst car in the world would be styled by the Germans, engineered by the Italians and built by the British...

Sirhr
 
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E. Bryant

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The ultimate car in the world would be Engineered by the British, styled by the Italians and built by the Germans. The worst car in the world would be styled by the Germans, engineered by the Italians and built by the British...

Sirhr
While some of those stereotypes are largely accurate, German "build quality" is largely overrated. I've seen just as much hand-fitting of parts on a German assembly line as one might expect elsewhere; it's just that they were more consistent (they are at least capable of making interchangeable parts).

The whole concept of "build quality" is bullshit anyways, at least in mass production. Either stuff fits properly on the first attempt, or else there will be problems. You don't want some guy hand-selecting main and rod bearings for the best possible fit; you want that crankshaft coming off the line with gnat's ass precision so that every single one of them is identical. That's how we get "build quality". It ain't Tony - or James, or Hans - filing something to perfection. It's a transfer line that was set up meticulously over a period of a couple years that takes raw castings and forgings at one end and turns them into perfect parts at the other. The Germans are pretty good at building those things.

But hey, there are those cool individually-signed build plaques under the hood of some modern performance and luxury cars, so you know the name of the "craftsman" that took the parts out of a bin and secured them with a computer-controlled torque wrench.
 

sirhrmechanic

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While some of those stereotypes are largely accurate, German "build quality" is largely overrated. I've seen just as much hand-fitting of parts on a German assembly line as one might expect elsewhere; it's just that they were more consistent (they are at least capable of making interchangeable parts).

The whole concept of "build quality" is bullshit anyways, at least in mass production. Either stuff fits properly on the first attempt, or else there will be problems. You don't want some guy hand-selecting main and rod bearings for the best possible fit; you want that crankshaft coming off the line with gnat's ass precision so that every single one of them is identical. That's how we get "build quality". It ain't Tony - or James, or Hans - filing something to perfection. It's a transfer line that was set up meticulously over a period of a couple years that takes raw castings and forgings at one end and turns them into perfect parts at the other. The Germans are pretty good at building those things.

But hey, there are those cool individually-signed build plaques under the hood of some modern performance and luxury cars, so you know the name of the "craftsman" that took the parts out of a bin and secured them with a computer-controlled torque wrench.
Somewhere I have a bumper sticker that says "All parts falling off this car are of finest English Workmanship."

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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E. Bryant

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I see where you initially typed out "Timkin", and later corrected it to Timken" - so yes, TicTacTex's "google analogy" was accurate.
Yep, you sure got me there - I misspelled a word, caught it about two minutes later, and that totally proves that I'm relying on Google for all my automotive knowledge.

To be fair, I Google'd "Timkin" and got this result:

IMG_20200916_081848.jpgIMG_20200916_081904.jpg
... so hopefully you can understand how I made such an egregious mistake.

Ironically enough, I'm not sure that sign is 100% correct (the Timken part, that is; Google obviously did all the work on the build, and I just sat back and shit-posted on the internet).

Next, I'm going to Google "how to prune a river birch", and then "how to get the kids to pick up their bike ramps so I can pull all the way into my parking spot next time".