- Thread starter tridiumk
- Start date
Many people will have different opinions, but I personally think you're cleaning that thing way too much. My rifles get excess carbon cleaned out after a range session, however I don't run any heavy solvents or anything to strip the copper out until I see a degradation in accuracy, which you're likely not going to see until somewhere between 200-500 rounds depending on your gun. My best accuracy is always on a fouled barrel.
+1 for ZombieMonkey
BoreTech has a great product that only cleans carbon and virtually no foul odor. I only clean every 250-300 rounds, but do grease my bolt lugs and mop chamber with 20 guage shotgun mop every every 2-3 outings. Excessive cleaning ruins more barrels than anything else!
I shoot 60-80 rounds each outing 3X per week. Semi retired and works only 3-4 days per week. Have 2 DTA SRS A1s with 260, 308 & 338 barrels. Over clean your rifles if you want, but waste of time and may damage barrels. Rarely if ever cleaning my ARs after 2 years and still working flawlessly.
With my 6br benchrest rifle I would typically clean every 20 shots or so. That is 3, 5 round strings at our local club match plus a few sighters and i generally see no loss of accuracy. Last year i shot my first f class open match and after shooting the 65 rounds without cleaning i went back to 200 yards the next day and shot the worst 2 moa group ever with that rifle. When clean it will shoot 1 ragged hole at 200 so not sure where the breaking point is but somewhere between 20 and 65 rounds. Not saying it will be the same for everyone but that was my experience.
I'd say you can toss out any results of the ladder test if you're cleaning that much. The gun will tell you what it needs, but you need to be a consistent enough shooter to see it. I shoot often, but don't tend to pound rounds down range. My AW 260 was cleaned sometime in 2012, but that is only 400 rounds or so if I recall.
I shoot with guys who clean hard after each and every session and with another group that never clean. I think there is a mid-point to be found. I like the Boretech carbon cleaner.
Keep rifle functionally clean but keep the bore fouled until accuracy degrades.
More damage is done by cleaning the rifle improperly/too much than by shooting it. People tend to get caught up in having to clean their rifles way more often than needed.
There are different cold bore terms for a reason; cold clean bore, cold fouled bored because they will shoot differently.
Unless you plan on cleaning EVERYTIME after you go out to shoot to get the same cold clean bore shot, I see no reason to clean each time as you will never see if your groups tighten with more fouling (which it normally does). Additionally, you will have a harder time tracking the performance of your rifle shot to shot in a data book if you had to start over each time because of cleaning and then never learned what your rifle really does, performance wise, after whatever your usual range session round count is.
Shoot the rifle. Record the data. I am willing to bet that your groups will tighten in a 'sweet spot' of rounds fired until they start to drop off; this can be anywhere from 300-600 rounds, but each rifle varies. When you see this start to drop, record it as usual and clean. Then start again and update/reinforce your data to where you will start to know that at X rounds, its going to start falling off.
PM me for my address to where you can send the extra money I just saved you on cleaning supplies you didn't need.
ETA - As far as ladder testing (hope you're doing it at a minimum of 400 yards) I would disregard the cold bore shot; use it as a range finding/confidence shot. Then shoot your string of powder X in order. Let it cool a bit but not let it sit for an hour or anything. Then shoot your full string of powder Y. Let it sit. Shoot your full string of powder Z. etc.
There are different cold bore terms for a reason; cold clean bore, cold fouled bored because they will shoot differently.
Unless you plan on cleaning EVERYTIME after you go out to shoot to get the same cold clean bore shot, I see no reason to clean each time as you will never see if your groups tighten with more fouling (which it normally does). Additionally, you will have a harder time tracking the performance of your rifle shot to shot in a data book if you had to start over each time because of cleaning and then never learned what your rifle really does, performance wise, after whatever your usual range session round count is.
Shoot the rifle. Record the data. I am willing to bet that your groups will tighten in a 'sweet spot' of rounds fired until they start to drop off; this can be anywhere from 300-600 rounds, but each rifle varies. When you see this start to drop, record it as usual and clean. Then start again and update/reinforce your data to where you will start to know that at X rounds, its going to start falling off.
PM me for my address to where you can send the extra money I just saved you on cleaning supplies you didn't need.
ETA - As far as ladder testing (hope you're doing it at a minimum of 400 yards) I would disregard the cold bore shot; use it as a range finding/confidence shot. Then shoot your string of powder X in order. Let it cool a bit but not let it sit for an hour or anything. Then shoot your full string of powder Y. Let it sit. Shoot your full string of powder Z. etc.
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If I'm going to a match, I definitely don't clean my rifle. You want it fouled and consistent shots going through it. Now you will still have a cold bore shot, but a lot of matches have a cold bore stage anyways, so it's best to know how your rifle shoots on a cold bore.
Why are there only three? i.e clean/cold, fouled/cold, fouled/warm?
There is clean/cold, then there is really clean/cold, no? In other words, there is the truly clean bore, where the bore is down to steel (really clean), but then there is the gilded bore, where just the carbon has been cleaned out (clean). So, shouldn't we recognize this further differentiation? Wouldn't it be clean/cold, gilded/cold, fouled/cold, and fouled/warm?
I used to clean down to steel after every session, but not with a brush. Sweets and J-B (which I should not have used as much as I did). Then I got the bright idea I needed to use a brush and the accuracy dropped immediately, and I haven't gotten the accuracy all the way back yet. (Now, truth be told, this was also the time I switched from 168 gr. SMK to 175 gr. SMK for better long range performance, so that may be part of what I saw as short to mid-range accuracy degradation- 1:12 twist barrel)
Then I read about not cleaning except maybe thoroughly cleaning every 500 rounds or so after accuracy starts to drop again. I tried that for a while, and I've gotten much of the accuracy back, and it does help with the cold bore shots. But, then I heard that bores are susceptible to pitting if you leave the carbon in the bore, and that if you clean the carbon but leave the gilding (copper) in the bore, the groups will stay tight and have a consistent cold bore shot. So, this is where I am now. i just started cleaning the carbon each session, and more shooting will show if I can have the accuracy without having to be concerned about pitting.
There is clean/cold, then there is really clean/cold, no? In other words, there is the truly clean bore, where the bore is down to steel (really clean), but then there is the gilded bore, where just the carbon has been cleaned out (clean). So, shouldn't we recognize this further differentiation? Wouldn't it be clean/cold, gilded/cold, fouled/cold, and fouled/warm?
I used to clean down to steel after every session, but not with a brush. Sweets and J-B (which I should not have used as much as I did). Then I got the bright idea I needed to use a brush and the accuracy dropped immediately, and I haven't gotten the accuracy all the way back yet. (Now, truth be told, this was also the time I switched from 168 gr. SMK to 175 gr. SMK for better long range performance, so that may be part of what I saw as short to mid-range accuracy degradation- 1:12 twist barrel)
Then I read about not cleaning except maybe thoroughly cleaning every 500 rounds or so after accuracy starts to drop again. I tried that for a while, and I've gotten much of the accuracy back, and it does help with the cold bore shots. But, then I heard that bores are susceptible to pitting if you leave the carbon in the bore, and that if you clean the carbon but leave the gilding (copper) in the bore, the groups will stay tight and have a consistent cold bore shot. So, this is where I am now. i just started cleaning the carbon each session, and more shooting will show if I can have the accuracy without having to be concerned about pitting.
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Just curious, what do you use to clean the carbon out but not the copper?
If I ever put anything though prior to the accuracy drop-off induced total cleaning, I just put MPRO7 on a brush and patch it until clean.
Hoppes No.9 was recommended, as it cuts carbon much faster than it dissolves the copper. But, I wonder if CLP might be better. Either way, the verdict isn't in yet for this regimen, as I just started trying it myself. I don't even know for a certainly if carbon really increases the risk of bore pitting as some say, but if it holds moisture I can see that as being a concern.
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