urinating on the Taliban corpses.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html
- Thread starter 168BTHPM
- Start date
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Nice to see that there are still some out there with balls and not afraid to tell it like it is.
On a side note, I'm surprised that there isn't a thread about this incident on here.
Nice to see that there are still some out there with balls and not afraid to tell it like it is.
On a side note, I'm surprised that there isn't a thread about this incident on here.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Hoo f'ing rah, carry on
Hoo f'ing rah, carry on
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
They did, it was called Mi Lai
They did, it was called Mi Lai
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Send kids away from their families thousands of miles away, to kill an enemy they don't know that would cut your head off while you are still alive and expect them to be zombies with no real "feelings" about it? My only thought is that they should be punished for taking the video not the act.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror." General George S. Patton, March 1945
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</div></div>
Send kids away from their families thousands of miles away, to kill an enemy they don't know that would cut your head off while you are still alive and expect them to be zombies with no real "feelings" about it? My only thought is that they should be punished for taking the video not the act.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror." General George S. Patton, March 1945
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</div></div>
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Nothing wrong with marking your kill with your scent.
Stupid fucking boots shouldn't have videotaped it though.
Nothing wrong with marking your kill with your scent.
Stupid fucking boots shouldn't have videotaped it though.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
I agree they shouldn't have video taped it. They do have to be punished for it in some way shape or form. I would say a company grade article 15 with 45 days extra duty of pissing on all the dead taliban should cover it. Too many softees in America now
I agree they shouldn't have video taped it. They do have to be punished for it in some way shape or form. I would say a company grade article 15 with 45 days extra duty of pissing on all the dead taliban should cover it. Too many softees in America now
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Allen West id as good as they come. Keep personel cameras out of combat. There is no need. Drones are a different story.
Allen West id as good as they come. Keep personel cameras out of combat. There is no need. Drones are a different story.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note, I'm surprised that there isn't a thread about this incident on here. </div></div>
There was but, the truth about many things started coming out an it was hit by the eraser.
Party lines seem to run deeper now, with trigger points set much lighter than times back.
Then again it might just be, for the betterment of the children of this rock.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note, I'm surprised that there isn't a thread about this incident on here. </div></div>
There was but, the truth about many things started coming out an it was hit by the eraser.
Party lines seem to run deeper now, with trigger points set much lighter than times back.
Then again it might just be, for the betterment of the children of this rock.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing wrong with marking your kill with your scent.
Stupid fucking boots shouldn't have videotaped it though. </div></div>
There's no right way to do the WRONG thing, clearly some folks have never been taught that simple truth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing wrong with marking your kill with your scent.
Stupid fucking boots shouldn't have videotaped it though. </div></div>
There's no right way to do the WRONG thing, clearly some folks have never been taught that simple truth.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
I like Mr. West more than ever. And agree with him.
I like Mr. West more than ever. And agree with him.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Why is it the bitching always starts with the fans, never the players.
You make chargers, amp them up, throw them to the wolfs, what the fuck do you think is going to happen. You want nice send the girl scouts, led by Hillery.
Pussy's an gamers have gave us what we have today, enjoying the ride?.
Why is it the bitching always starts with the fans, never the players.
You make chargers, amp them up, throw them to the wolfs, what the fuck do you think is going to happen. You want nice send the girl scouts, led by Hillery.
Pussy's an gamers have gave us what we have today, enjoying the ride?.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines.
Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
An open letter to the Weekly Standard....and by a Congressman...hmmm....do you think it is a random personal opinion or could it have been written specifically for a political purpose?
No one wants to see those Marines 'fry'. But, if that video is real, they're done. It's not a stretch to say that what they did violates even their own rules. One word to describe it: Amateur.
An open letter to the Weekly Standard....and by a Congressman...hmmm....do you think it is a random personal opinion or could it have been written specifically for a political purpose?
No one wants to see those Marines 'fry'. But, if that video is real, they're done. It's not a stretch to say that what they did violates even their own rules. One word to describe it: Amateur.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An open letter to the Weekly Standard....and by a Congressman...hmmm....do you think it is a random personal opinion or could it have been written specifically for a political purpose?
No one wants to see those Marines 'fry'. But, if that video is real, they're done. It's not a stretch to say that what they did violates even their own rules. One word to describe it: Amateur. </div></div>
Graham, Allen West is the real deal. I have followed his political career for quite a few years and he does not mince words. He has been a life long NRA member and does not always say things that would get him elected. He was a solid soldier and was accused of interrogating an Iraqi police officer. Some of his soldiers brought him in and when it looked like he was reaching for a gun West shot his pistol next to his ear. Well turns out he started singing like a canary. Saved a shitload of our soldiers but West was given an article 15. I just wish he would have been our first black president.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An open letter to the Weekly Standard....and by a Congressman...hmmm....do you think it is a random personal opinion or could it have been written specifically for a political purpose?
No one wants to see those Marines 'fry'. But, if that video is real, they're done. It's not a stretch to say that what they did violates even their own rules. One word to describe it: Amateur. </div></div>
Graham, Allen West is the real deal. I have followed his political career for quite a few years and he does not mince words. He has been a life long NRA member and does not always say things that would get him elected. He was a solid soldier and was accused of interrogating an Iraqi police officer. Some of his soldiers brought him in and when it looked like he was reaching for a gun West shot his pistol next to his ear. Well turns out he started singing like a canary. Saved a shitload of our soldiers but West was given an article 15. I just wish he would have been our first black president.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Agreed Mechanic, watched a vid about a year ago were West explained his opinion about the Muslim religon, no doubt about his positions...
Agreed Mechanic, watched a vid about a year ago were West explained his opinion about the Muslim religon, no doubt about his positions...
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
I would really like to comment. But, I'm not much for "political correctness" and what I say here (For the devil dogs) may end up with the ban hammer wacking me in the nuts. Mr. West has a great view.
I would really like to comment. But, I'm not much for "political correctness" and what I say here (For the devil dogs) may end up with the ban hammer wacking me in the nuts. Mr. West has a great view.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Blaming the media, or 'political correctness', for why this kind of activity is not permitted is complete nonsense. From a strategic point of view, urinating on the dead is aiding the enemy. Every time this video is broadcast it is another reason for the strong to end the struggle and for the weak to continue until victory is won.
A strong counterinsurgent who uses his power against a weaker opponent must do so with restraint. To do otherwise is to give the weak less cause to demonstrate that their own actions are just. Henry Kissinger said it best during the last 'counterinsurgency' war in Vietnam: The forces of order, as long as they do not win, lose.
It's not that times have changed and our military has gotten soft, it's that when this stuff happens it makes it look like we have learned nothing over the last thirty-five years about how to fight a weaker opponent.
Blaming the media, or 'political correctness', for why this kind of activity is not permitted is complete nonsense. From a strategic point of view, urinating on the dead is aiding the enemy. Every time this video is broadcast it is another reason for the strong to end the struggle and for the weak to continue until victory is won.
A strong counterinsurgent who uses his power against a weaker opponent must do so with restraint. To do otherwise is to give the weak less cause to demonstrate that their own actions are just. Henry Kissinger said it best during the last 'counterinsurgency' war in Vietnam: The forces of order, as long as they do not win, lose.
It's not that times have changed and our military has gotten soft, it's that when this stuff happens it makes it look like we have learned nothing over the last thirty-five years about how to fight a weaker opponent.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Guy,
I want you to remember something. While you sit here on a website built around "snipers" there are Marine Scout Snipers actually in afghanistan KILLING taliban. I find it pretty funny that you think you have the experience/knowledge to judge anything that that team did. I may know some of the guys in that video, and I can tell you that whatever credentials you think you might have, you dont rate to judge them. Do a little research on that particular Scout Sniper platoon. You sound like a gatherer, so I wouldnt expect you to understand the mentalities of hunters, but you probably should keep your mouth shut about things you know absolutely NOTHING about.
Guy,
I want you to remember something. While you sit here on a website built around "snipers" there are Marine Scout Snipers actually in afghanistan KILLING taliban. I find it pretty funny that you think you have the experience/knowledge to judge anything that that team did. I may know some of the guys in that video, and I can tell you that whatever credentials you think you might have, you dont rate to judge them. Do a little research on that particular Scout Sniper platoon. You sound like a gatherer, so I wouldnt expect you to understand the mentalities of hunters, but you probably should keep your mouth shut about things you know absolutely NOTHING about.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
This video is sparking the same type of reaction as the one of a marine throwing that puppy. Both are wrong but not a big deal in and of themselves. The big deal is that the media is pumping it up to unreasonable importance. I doubt it will have any major ramifications like increased attacks. Insurgents are all ready hell bent on killing coalition forces, especially americans. All that's gonna happens is the marines in question will be hammered due to the public outcry of this grossly inflated event.
This video is sparking the same type of reaction as the one of a marine throwing that puppy. Both are wrong but not a big deal in and of themselves. The big deal is that the media is pumping it up to unreasonable importance. I doubt it will have any major ramifications like increased attacks. Insurgents are all ready hell bent on killing coalition forces, especially americans. All that's gonna happens is the marines in question will be hammered due to the public outcry of this grossly inflated event.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
It sucks but the media will kill us on this dumb shit.
I aint sayin its right but when you lose the public opinion. you have lost the battle. If the leg humpers on the news hate you .you aint got a chance in hell. It aint right but that is how shit works now. It dont even have to be good for America and they will back any stupid shit that makes good news for them.
It sucks but the media will kill us on this dumb shit.
I aint sayin its right but when you lose the public opinion. you have lost the battle. If the leg humpers on the news hate you .you aint got a chance in hell. It aint right but that is how shit works now. It dont even have to be good for America and they will back any stupid shit that makes good news for them.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines. </div></div>
I get it Marcus, you're Sgt. York who'd end the wars if we'd just let you have at it.
It's almost beyond hysterical how you desperate your "argument" is.
If you actually have a point, I'd love to hear it, or was your post just a vehicle to show everyone what tough guy you are?
Whether you can admit it or not, you're cheerleading for the greatest Taliban recruitment drive in decades.
That's the real legacy of these Marines who urinated on the corpses, the actions of these IDIOTS will cost soldiers lives for years to come.
Your recruiter non-sequitur is truly amusing, thanks for chuckle, you're clearly out of ammo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines. </div></div>
I get it Marcus, you're Sgt. York who'd end the wars if we'd just let you have at it.
It's almost beyond hysterical how you desperate your "argument" is.
If you actually have a point, I'd love to hear it, or was your post just a vehicle to show everyone what tough guy you are?
Whether you can admit it or not, you're cheerleading for the greatest Taliban recruitment drive in decades.
That's the real legacy of these Marines who urinated on the corpses, the actions of these IDIOTS will cost soldiers lives for years to come.
Your recruiter non-sequitur is truly amusing, thanks for chuckle, you're clearly out of ammo.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guy,
I want you to remember something. While you sit here on a website built around "snipers" there are Marine Scout Snipers actually in afghanistan KILLING taliban. I find it pretty funny that you think you have the experience/knowledge to judge anything that that team did. I may know some of the guys in that video, and I can tell you that whatever credentials you think you might have, you dont rate to judge them. Do a little research on that particular Scout Sniper platoon. You sound like a gatherer, so I wouldnt expect you to understand the mentalities of hunters, but you probably should keep your mouth shut about things you know absolutely NOTHING about. </div></div>If it makes you feel better about the video, I will agree with you that your dick is bigger than mine.
As I have said elsewhere, I have seen inappropriate actions in the heat of passion that I would agree with the Congressman are Article 15 material. But what I saw on the video was a dead enemy. I saw no bullets flying. I saw no injured friendlies. There was no additional information, or tactical advantage, to be gained by urinating on the bodies.
Do you know those Marines? Do you command them? Because if you do, then tell us first-hand why what they appear to be doing is the right thing and permissible by even their own code of conduct. And have we met? Because when you speak about my credentials, without knowing anything about them, you destroy the credibility of what you say next about me not being able to judge them because I don't know theirs. And even then you've got it backwards: Our entire system, both military and civilian, is built around other people being in a legitimate position of judgement over the bad choices of twenty-somethings in uniform. In our democracy it has never been otherwise.
Yes, we are fighting a war. Yes, we are killing Taliban (although I don't know whether the enemy in the video were Taliban). I expect that killing won't impress you so much after you realize how mundane and how necessary it can be. But I'll do you the favor: I will agree to keep my mouth shut about things I know nothing about. Provided that you do the same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guy,
I want you to remember something. While you sit here on a website built around "snipers" there are Marine Scout Snipers actually in afghanistan KILLING taliban. I find it pretty funny that you think you have the experience/knowledge to judge anything that that team did. I may know some of the guys in that video, and I can tell you that whatever credentials you think you might have, you dont rate to judge them. Do a little research on that particular Scout Sniper platoon. You sound like a gatherer, so I wouldnt expect you to understand the mentalities of hunters, but you probably should keep your mouth shut about things you know absolutely NOTHING about. </div></div>If it makes you feel better about the video, I will agree with you that your dick is bigger than mine.
As I have said elsewhere, I have seen inappropriate actions in the heat of passion that I would agree with the Congressman are Article 15 material. But what I saw on the video was a dead enemy. I saw no bullets flying. I saw no injured friendlies. There was no additional information, or tactical advantage, to be gained by urinating on the bodies.
Do you know those Marines? Do you command them? Because if you do, then tell us first-hand why what they appear to be doing is the right thing and permissible by even their own code of conduct. And have we met? Because when you speak about my credentials, without knowing anything about them, you destroy the credibility of what you say next about me not being able to judge them because I don't know theirs. And even then you've got it backwards: Our entire system, both military and civilian, is built around other people being in a legitimate position of judgement over the bad choices of twenty-somethings in uniform. In our democracy it has never been otherwise.
Yes, we are fighting a war. Yes, we are killing Taliban (although I don't know whether the enemy in the video were Taliban). I expect that killing won't impress you so much after you realize how mundane and how necessary it can be. But I'll do you the favor: I will agree to keep my mouth shut about things I know nothing about. Provided that you do the same.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.
would i piss on the dead bodies of the taliban members? under most circumstances, probably not. if they had just killed or defiled the body of my fellow Marines...maybe. If I wouldnt piss on them in that last instance, Id at least empty a full mag into their face had they caused a strong emotional response.
is it a socially acceptable action in the US? No
is it understandable? Yes
is it helpful to the overall war effort for that sort of thing to be brought out into the full light of the worldwide media?
NO...under no circumstances. It should be handled within the military judicial system.
This kind of thing is like basically an extreme version of Spiking the Ball after a touchdown. Frowned upon but in the heat of the moment shit happens.
The extreme lack of judgement in the younger people today with wanting to capture everything on video and with pictures when doing these types of acts is a version of Darwin's Natural Selection...the stupid ones don't survive for long
the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.
would i piss on the dead bodies of the taliban members? under most circumstances, probably not. if they had just killed or defiled the body of my fellow Marines...maybe. If I wouldnt piss on them in that last instance, Id at least empty a full mag into their face had they caused a strong emotional response.
is it a socially acceptable action in the US? No
is it understandable? Yes
is it helpful to the overall war effort for that sort of thing to be brought out into the full light of the worldwide media?
NO...under no circumstances. It should be handled within the military judicial system.
This kind of thing is like basically an extreme version of Spiking the Ball after a touchdown. Frowned upon but in the heat of the moment shit happens.
The extreme lack of judgement in the younger people today with wanting to capture everything on video and with pictures when doing these types of acts is a version of Darwin's Natural Selection...the stupid ones don't survive for long
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Making that video is just about as bad as CNN cutting this marine's first amendment right live on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_AQnegSXMw
Making that video is just about as bad as CNN cutting this marine's first amendment right live on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_AQnegSXMw
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Graham,
My comments were directly towards Guy, not you.
It was definitely a bad thing that this video was posted on the internet. It shouldnt have even been recorded. That being said, it happened.
Taliban propoganda? Didnt the Taliban say that they were offended by what the Marines did to their "brother"
After all the war crimes the Taliban have committed, does anyone actually take it seriously when they say they are offended? All of a sudden they are an "honorable" enemy, and they follow "rules" and "morals?"
The fact that there is outrage from Americans over this incident shows how out of touch with reality you guys are.
The job of a Sniper in combat involves doing things that sometimes are even worse then the things on this video. If you dont understand that, then you probably havent been behind the gun in a hide site. Its really cool to come on a website like this and play sniper in your offtime, by spending alot of money on the coolest safe queen rifle you can get, buying all the latest tactical gear, etc. Just remember that there are dudes out there who actually kill the enemy, and live for the chance to put more of them in the ground. If youre offended by the video, you are weak, and Im glad I will never share a hide site with you.
Graham,
My comments were directly towards Guy, not you.
It was definitely a bad thing that this video was posted on the internet. It shouldnt have even been recorded. That being said, it happened.
Taliban propoganda? Didnt the Taliban say that they were offended by what the Marines did to their "brother"
After all the war crimes the Taliban have committed, does anyone actually take it seriously when they say they are offended? All of a sudden they are an "honorable" enemy, and they follow "rules" and "morals?"
The fact that there is outrage from Americans over this incident shows how out of touch with reality you guys are.
The job of a Sniper in combat involves doing things that sometimes are even worse then the things on this video. If you dont understand that, then you probably havent been behind the gun in a hide site. Its really cool to come on a website like this and play sniper in your offtime, by spending alot of money on the coolest safe queen rifle you can get, buying all the latest tactical gear, etc. Just remember that there are dudes out there who actually kill the enemy, and live for the chance to put more of them in the ground. If youre offended by the video, you are weak, and Im glad I will never share a hide site with you.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines. </div></div>
I get it Marcus, you're Sgt. York who'd end the wars if we'd just let you have at it.
It's almost beyond hysterical how you desperate your "argument" is.
If you actually have a point, I'd love to hear it, or was your post just a vehicle to show everyone what tough guy you are?
Whether you can admit it or not, you're cheerleading for the greatest Taliban recruitment drive in decades.
That's the real legacy of these Marines who urinated on the corpses, the actions of these IDIOTS will cost soldiers lives for years to come.
Your recruiter non-sequitur is truly amusing, thanks for chuckle, you're clearly out of ammo.
</div></div>
Guy, you're about as dumb as a rock! The Taliban is not a perplexed social group waiting for our actions to be influenced.
Stupid fuck!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright Guy, since you want to see these Marines get fried go find your nearest Marine Recruiter and enlist as a 0311. Some of you real estate politicians need to take the places of these Marines. </div></div>
I get it Marcus, you're Sgt. York who'd end the wars if we'd just let you have at it.
It's almost beyond hysterical how you desperate your "argument" is.
If you actually have a point, I'd love to hear it, or was your post just a vehicle to show everyone what tough guy you are?
Whether you can admit it or not, you're cheerleading for the greatest Taliban recruitment drive in decades.
That's the real legacy of these Marines who urinated on the corpses, the actions of these IDIOTS will cost soldiers lives for years to come.
Your recruiter non-sequitur is truly amusing, thanks for chuckle, you're clearly out of ammo.
</div></div>
Guy, you're about as dumb as a rock! The Taliban is not a perplexed social group waiting for our actions to be influenced.
Stupid fuck!
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.</div></div>
As a very well armed and card carrying member of the GOP who doesn't love blood, violence or war, I take exception to your critique.
I'd suggest rethinking your criticism of those of us who're not Cheerleaders for endless wars that never are won.
We're not libs, doves, "occupy" or any other pejorative you can think of, we're REALISTS who won't pretend like these wars are anything but destructive to US interests.
"Demonizing" the military isn't very hard to do when you've got Marines like the one's in question providing the Taliban with the Recruitment video of their dreams.
Perhaps you might shine some light on why we've still got nearly 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, now that OBL is dead?
Other than ensuring a steady and predicable flow of opium from the region, what are we accomplishing by being there?
Installing a Jeffersonian Republic, and spreading "freedom" throughout the Muslim world is really working out well for us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.</div></div>
As a very well armed and card carrying member of the GOP who doesn't love blood, violence or war, I take exception to your critique.
I'd suggest rethinking your criticism of those of us who're not Cheerleaders for endless wars that never are won.
We're not libs, doves, "occupy" or any other pejorative you can think of, we're REALISTS who won't pretend like these wars are anything but destructive to US interests.
"Demonizing" the military isn't very hard to do when you've got Marines like the one's in question providing the Taliban with the Recruitment video of their dreams.
Perhaps you might shine some light on why we've still got nearly 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, now that OBL is dead?
Other than ensuring a steady and predicable flow of opium from the region, what are we accomplishing by being there?
Installing a Jeffersonian Republic, and spreading "freedom" throughout the Muslim world is really working out well for us.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maelek said:Other than ensuring a steady and predicable flow of opium from the region, what are we accomplishing by being there?
</div></div>
WEll said. Opium production at all time high. Who benefits?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Opium production at all time high. Who benefits? </div></div>
Me for one, I'm retired. If all those involved in, well you know, were not, who the fuck would be hooking my SS up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Opium production at all time high. Who benefits?
Me for one, I'm retired. If all those involved in, well you know, were not, who the fuck would be hooking my SS up?
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Making that video is just about as bad as CNN cutting this marine's first amendment right live on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_AQnegSXMw </div></div>
CNN is not a state actor.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Making that video is just about as bad as CNN cutting this marine's first amendment right live on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_AQnegSXMw </div></div>
CNN is not a state actor.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, My comments were directly towards Guy, not you.</div></div>Then I apologize for my comment about your appendage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After all the war crimes the Taliban have committed, does anyone actually take it seriously when they say they are offended? All of a sudden they are an "honorable" enemy, and they follow "rules" and "morals?" </div></div>I hope that nobody is arguing that they are an honorable enemy. But I am saying that we don't want to help them appear to be one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that there is outrage from Americans over this incident shows how out of touch with reality you guys are.</div></div> The Geneva Convention is reality. The enemy is not a signatory. Here is a case where we could learn from how the Brits handled IRA violence in the 80's.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The job of a Sniper in combat involves doing things that sometimes are even worse then the things on this video. If you dont understand that, then you probably havent been behind the gun in a hide site.</div></div>There are a lot of idiots that have been behind a gun in a Hide site. I've seen a few. One job of a sniper is to save lives by taking enemy lives. The other job is to properly communicate information. Snipers are neither trained nor deployed to urinate on the dead and fail at the second job after the first job is done. When they do that it makes one wonder what useful so-called 'worse' technique they failed to properly employ on the living enemy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just remember that there are dudes out there who actually kill the enemy, and live for the chance to put more of them in the ground. If youre offended by the video, you are weak, and Im glad I will never share a hide site with you. </div></div>The difference is that the enemy in the video were already in the ground. I'm not offended by the video, I'm disappointed by it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham, My comments were directly towards Guy, not you.</div></div>Then I apologize for my comment about your appendage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After all the war crimes the Taliban have committed, does anyone actually take it seriously when they say they are offended? All of a sudden they are an "honorable" enemy, and they follow "rules" and "morals?" </div></div>I hope that nobody is arguing that they are an honorable enemy. But I am saying that we don't want to help them appear to be one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that there is outrage from Americans over this incident shows how out of touch with reality you guys are.</div></div> The Geneva Convention is reality. The enemy is not a signatory. Here is a case where we could learn from how the Brits handled IRA violence in the 80's.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The job of a Sniper in combat involves doing things that sometimes are even worse then the things on this video. If you dont understand that, then you probably havent been behind the gun in a hide site.</div></div>There are a lot of idiots that have been behind a gun in a Hide site. I've seen a few. One job of a sniper is to save lives by taking enemy lives. The other job is to properly communicate information. Snipers are neither trained nor deployed to urinate on the dead and fail at the second job after the first job is done. When they do that it makes one wonder what useful so-called 'worse' technique they failed to properly employ on the living enemy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rogers0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just remember that there are dudes out there who actually kill the enemy, and live for the chance to put more of them in the ground. If youre offended by the video, you are weak, and Im glad I will never share a hide site with you. </div></div>The difference is that the enemy in the video were already in the ground. I'm not offended by the video, I'm disappointed by it.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.</div></div>
As a very well armed and card carrying member of the GOP who doesn't love blood, violence or war, I take exception to your critique.
I'd suggest rethinking your criticism of those of us who're not Cheerleaders for endless wars that never are won.
We're not libs, doves, "occupy" or any other pejorative you can think of, we're REALISTS who won't pretend like these wars are anything but destructive to US interests.
"Demonizing" the military isn't very hard to do when you've got Marines like the one's in question providing the Taliban with the Recruitment video of their dreams.
Perhaps you might shine some light on why we've still got nearly 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, now that OBL is dead?
Other than ensuring a steady and predicable flow of opium from the region, what are we accomplishing by being there?
Installing a Jeffersonian Republic, and spreading "freedom" throughout the Muslim world is really working out well for us.
</div></div>
If you actually believe that the taliban membership gets much of a rise out of that video, you are sadly mistaken.
Do you actually think a reasonable person who is at best ambivalent to what is going on over there would be tipped over into taking up a gun because some Marines pissed on the dead body of an enemy combatant that would do much worse to them if they had the chance? The good Afghanies know what the bad Afghanies are capable of and for the most part are too scared to act because they know that they will be killed by the Taliban.
The majority of the taliban membership is fed a steady diet of anti-western rhetoric from birth. They are already on board with the program by the time they are of age to hold a gun.
I actually agree with you in the respect of overseas fighting. We need to get a better strategy on dealing with the middle east. Preferably one that gets them to kill each other and we just pick the lesser of 2 evils which is the way that has always been done in the past. Less money and less american lives affected.
However, we are in this one now. We need to end it on our terms. "Driving the Americans out...the Americans are weak" is more of a propaganda tool for the Taliban than the Marines pissing on the bodies video.
"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the ONLY reason that this is being thrust into the media is due to the inherent desire for the bleeding heart liberals who hate war & violence (unless of course if it is them performing the violence out at the Occupy Wallstreet gatherings) to demonize the military.</div></div>
As a very well armed and card carrying member of the GOP who doesn't love blood, violence or war, I take exception to your critique.
I'd suggest rethinking your criticism of those of us who're not Cheerleaders for endless wars that never are won.
We're not libs, doves, "occupy" or any other pejorative you can think of, we're REALISTS who won't pretend like these wars are anything but destructive to US interests.
"Demonizing" the military isn't very hard to do when you've got Marines like the one's in question providing the Taliban with the Recruitment video of their dreams.
Perhaps you might shine some light on why we've still got nearly 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, now that OBL is dead?
Other than ensuring a steady and predicable flow of opium from the region, what are we accomplishing by being there?
Installing a Jeffersonian Republic, and spreading "freedom" throughout the Muslim world is really working out well for us.
</div></div>
If you actually believe that the taliban membership gets much of a rise out of that video, you are sadly mistaken.
Do you actually think a reasonable person who is at best ambivalent to what is going on over there would be tipped over into taking up a gun because some Marines pissed on the dead body of an enemy combatant that would do much worse to them if they had the chance? The good Afghanies know what the bad Afghanies are capable of and for the most part are too scared to act because they know that they will be killed by the Taliban.
The majority of the taliban membership is fed a steady diet of anti-western rhetoric from birth. They are already on board with the program by the time they are of age to hold a gun.
I actually agree with you in the respect of overseas fighting. We need to get a better strategy on dealing with the middle east. Preferably one that gets them to kill each other and we just pick the lesser of 2 evils which is the way that has always been done in the past. Less money and less american lives affected.
However, we are in this one now. We need to end it on our terms. "Driving the Americans out...the Americans are weak" is more of a propaganda tool for the Taliban than the Marines pissing on the bodies video.
"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!!
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!! </div></div>
No amount of rationalization changes the fact that the actions of these particular Marines does anything but get more of our guys killed.
Pretending like this incident doesn't add fuel to the already blazing fire that is anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world is delusional thinking in my view.
At some point in time you're going to have to admit that we're doing far more harm than help by remaining in Afghanistan.
This incident only reinforces that fact, we've no business still being there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!! </div></div>
No amount of rationalization changes the fact that the actions of these particular Marines does anything but get more of our guys killed.
Pretending like this incident doesn't add fuel to the already blazing fire that is anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world is delusional thinking in my view.
At some point in time you're going to have to admit that we're doing far more harm than help by remaining in Afghanistan.
This incident only reinforces that fact, we've no business still being there.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Ah it looks like everyone in this thread is a pro!
Opinions are like assholes... you know the rest.
Ah it looks like everyone in this thread is a pro!
Opinions are like assholes... you know the rest.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Did anybody catch that M40 one of the Marines was holding?
Did anybody catch that M40 one of the Marines was holding?
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!! </div></div>
No amount of rationalization changes the fact that the actions of these particular Marines does anything but get more of our guys killed.
</div></div>
I was going to stay out of this but the above mentality is really starting to grate on me.
We kill a hell of a lot more of them then they do of us. Who gives a shit if it pisses them off. Let em come. To assume that they would inflict more damage upon our troops then they would to themselves is dead fucking wrong. If they choose to attack American forces they do so at their own risk and will most assuredly loose their lives in the process.
The larger problem is that we began using an unconventional strategy that was implemented by conventional forces. Our conventional forces often lack the training and mentality to successfully operate under the conditions that have been dictated. If you are going to bring dogs into your home don't become outraged if they shit on the floor from time to time.
The actions of the Marines in question is unprofessional and requires a suitable response. The congressman has hit the nail on the head as to what a suitable response should look like.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guy Montag</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maelek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Demonizing the military" should not be done by our own people...end of story...period!!!!! </div></div>
No amount of rationalization changes the fact that the actions of these particular Marines does anything but get more of our guys killed.
</div></div>
I was going to stay out of this but the above mentality is really starting to grate on me.
We kill a hell of a lot more of them then they do of us. Who gives a shit if it pisses them off. Let em come. To assume that they would inflict more damage upon our troops then they would to themselves is dead fucking wrong. If they choose to attack American forces they do so at their own risk and will most assuredly loose their lives in the process.
The larger problem is that we began using an unconventional strategy that was implemented by conventional forces. Our conventional forces often lack the training and mentality to successfully operate under the conditions that have been dictated. If you are going to bring dogs into your home don't become outraged if they shit on the floor from time to time.
The actions of the Marines in question is unprofessional and requires a suitable response. The congressman has hit the nail on the head as to what a suitable response should look like.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
No punishment is good enough for those Marines. Really, no punishment. Well, maybe a smack to the back of the head by their squad leader or team leader. No one places more importance in the news than when our warriors have a little fun or do the things they do. When the enemy cuts off heads, hangs bodies from briodges, drags bodies behind vehicles, the news gives it a second, then moves on.
Move on from this and it will be seen as a lesson on what not to do. Leave it alone.
No? You want to dig into what is done during deployment? Really? You want pictures? Blood? I can provide those too, but photovbucket will close my acocunt if I post them. You want to dig into what was done in wars past? Remember, you dig into this idiotic, stupid thing, and the whoile world will come unglued. At the same time, our Islamic enemies will continue to cut head soff, drag bodies around behind vehicles, or hang them from bridges and no one will say jack shit. Piss on those fuckers! Semper Fi Marines. Carry On!
No punishment is good enough for those Marines. Really, no punishment. Well, maybe a smack to the back of the head by their squad leader or team leader. No one places more importance in the news than when our warriors have a little fun or do the things they do. When the enemy cuts off heads, hangs bodies from briodges, drags bodies behind vehicles, the news gives it a second, then moves on.
Move on from this and it will be seen as a lesson on what not to do. Leave it alone.
No? You want to dig into what is done during deployment? Really? You want pictures? Blood? I can provide those too, but photovbucket will close my acocunt if I post them. You want to dig into what was done in wars past? Remember, you dig into this idiotic, stupid thing, and the whoile world will come unglued. At the same time, our Islamic enemies will continue to cut head soff, drag bodies around behind vehicles, or hang them from bridges and no one will say jack shit. Piss on those fuckers! Semper Fi Marines. Carry On!
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Talking about all the bad shit our enemies do is a distraction. We're better than them. We shouldn't act like them.
Let the enemy be savages. We are better than that.
A real warrior doesn't act like a savage.
Talking about all the bad shit our enemies do is a distraction. We're better than them. We shouldn't act like them.
Let the enemy be savages. We are better than that.
A real warrior doesn't act like a savage.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Another well written and informed opinion about this incident.
http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/01/16/explaining-the-inexplicable/
Another well written and informed opinion about this incident.
http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/01/16/explaining-the-inexplicable/
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
Stay thirsty my friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV_GoGcWH_c
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Stay thirsty my friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV_GoGcWH_c
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 168BTHPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another well written and informed opinion about this incident.
http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/01/16/explaining-the-inexplicable/ </div></div>That's good commentary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 168BTHPM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another well written and informed opinion about this incident.
http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/01/16/explaining-the-inexplicable/ </div></div>That's good commentary.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Reading the above comments I've got to say that some people who posted are completely missing the point: They won't admit the inherent contradiction in saying that when the enemy desecrates the bodies of our troops it is wrong, but that it's OK when we do it because our version of the same thing is mild by comparison.
This incident is not about patriotism, or ROEs, or the ability of our troops to fight. Because here the enemy was already dead. The problem isn't the perception by the enemy of what happened, it's the perception of the rest of the world. That's why the Secretary of State was on TV the same night to say how thoroughly the incident will be investigated.
To paraphrase Martin Van Creveld, the world's perception of US involvement in Iraq is that of an elephant crushing an ant - an ant that had already been stepped on, and crushed, twelve years previous. That perception does not change regarding involvement in Afghanistan.
That's why I brought-up the British experience in Northern Ireland. Because it is one of the few examples of a successful counterinsurgency campaign. Let's look at it: when dealing with an intelligent and highly-motivated insurgency a) most of the work needs to be left to indiginous forces; and b) the military, when seen as an 'occupying' force by the uninvolved population, must at all times stay within the law. That, plus selective targeting (and the proper employment of snipers) is what wore down the enemy and brought it to the table.
Reading the above comments I've got to say that some people who posted are completely missing the point: They won't admit the inherent contradiction in saying that when the enemy desecrates the bodies of our troops it is wrong, but that it's OK when we do it because our version of the same thing is mild by comparison.
This incident is not about patriotism, or ROEs, or the ability of our troops to fight. Because here the enemy was already dead. The problem isn't the perception by the enemy of what happened, it's the perception of the rest of the world. That's why the Secretary of State was on TV the same night to say how thoroughly the incident will be investigated.
To paraphrase Martin Van Creveld, the world's perception of US involvement in Iraq is that of an elephant crushing an ant - an ant that had already been stepped on, and crushed, twelve years previous. That perception does not change regarding involvement in Afghanistan.
That's why I brought-up the British experience in Northern Ireland. Because it is one of the few examples of a successful counterinsurgency campaign. Let's look at it: when dealing with an intelligent and highly-motivated insurgency a) most of the work needs to be left to indiginous forces; and b) the military, when seen as an 'occupying' force by the uninvolved population, must at all times stay within the law. That, plus selective targeting (and the proper employment of snipers) is what wore down the enemy and brought it to the table.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading the above comments I've got to say that some people who posted are completely missing the point: They won't admit the inherent contradiction in saying that when the enemy desecrates the bodies of our troops it is wrong, but that it's OK when we do it because our version of the same thing is mild by comparison.
This incident is not about patriotism, or ROEs, or the ability of our troops to fight. Because here the enemy was already dead. The problem isn't the perception by the enemy of what happened, it's the perception of the rest of the world. That's why the Secretary of State was on TV the same night to say how thoroughly the incident will be investigated.
To paraphrase Martin Van Creveld, the world's perception of US involvement in Iraq is that of an elephant crushing an ant - an ant that had already been stepped on, and crushed, twelve years previous. That perception does not change regarding involvement in Afghanistan.
That's why I brought-up the British experience in Northern Ireland. Because it is one of the few examples of a successful counterinsurgency campaign. Let's look at it: when dealing with an intelligent and highly-motivated insurgency a) most of the work needs to be left to indiginous forces; and b) the military, when seen as an 'occupying' force by the uninvolved population, must at all times stay within the law. That, plus selective targeting (and the proper employment of snipers) is what wore down the enemy and brought it to the table. </div></div>
Graham,
Actually I believe that you are missing the point. Our conventional forces (especially the Marines) are trained to kill first and foremost. From day one every group movement is predicated upon a resounding collective "KILL" screamed at the top of every Marines lungs.
The Marine Corps has embraced the ethos of the warrior over that of the soldier. As such there is little room for respect for the dead. To us it is just meat.
I personally believe that the actions of the Marines in question was unprofessional and yet not unexpected. Demanding empathy from Marines in combat shows a sever lack of understanding of their training and capabilities.
Marine Corps infantry battalions are comprised of a group of young men with gt scores ranging from <span style="text-decoration: line-through">35</span> 80 - 135, from all walks of life, trained to close with and destroy the enemy. They are very good at this. Lets not get our panties in a bunch when they become a bit irreverent concerning enemy dead.
If you want troops that will flawlessly execute COIN then put them through a year of training followed by an individual selection process prior to deployment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reading the above comments I've got to say that some people who posted are completely missing the point: They won't admit the inherent contradiction in saying that when the enemy desecrates the bodies of our troops it is wrong, but that it's OK when we do it because our version of the same thing is mild by comparison.
This incident is not about patriotism, or ROEs, or the ability of our troops to fight. Because here the enemy was already dead. The problem isn't the perception by the enemy of what happened, it's the perception of the rest of the world. That's why the Secretary of State was on TV the same night to say how thoroughly the incident will be investigated.
To paraphrase Martin Van Creveld, the world's perception of US involvement in Iraq is that of an elephant crushing an ant - an ant that had already been stepped on, and crushed, twelve years previous. That perception does not change regarding involvement in Afghanistan.
That's why I brought-up the British experience in Northern Ireland. Because it is one of the few examples of a successful counterinsurgency campaign. Let's look at it: when dealing with an intelligent and highly-motivated insurgency a) most of the work needs to be left to indiginous forces; and b) the military, when seen as an 'occupying' force by the uninvolved population, must at all times stay within the law. That, plus selective targeting (and the proper employment of snipers) is what wore down the enemy and brought it to the table. </div></div>
Graham,
Actually I believe that you are missing the point. Our conventional forces (especially the Marines) are trained to kill first and foremost. From day one every group movement is predicated upon a resounding collective "KILL" screamed at the top of every Marines lungs.
The Marine Corps has embraced the ethos of the warrior over that of the soldier. As such there is little room for respect for the dead. To us it is just meat.
I personally believe that the actions of the Marines in question was unprofessional and yet not unexpected. Demanding empathy from Marines in combat shows a sever lack of understanding of their training and capabilities.
Marine Corps infantry battalions are comprised of a group of young men with gt scores ranging from <span style="text-decoration: line-through">35</span> 80 - 135, from all walks of life, trained to close with and destroy the enemy. They are very good at this. Lets not get our panties in a bunch when they become a bit irreverent concerning enemy dead.
If you want troops that will flawlessly execute COIN then put them through a year of training followed by an individual selection process prior to deployment.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,
Actually I believe that you are missing the point. Our conventional forces (especially the Marines) are trained to kill first and foremost. From day one every group movement is predicated upon a resounding collective "KILL" screamed at the top of every Marines lungs.
The Marine Corps has embraced the ethos of the warrior over that of the soldier. As such there is little room for respect for the dead. To us it is just meat...
If you want troops that will flawlessly execute COIN then put them through a year of training followed by an individual selection process prior to deployment.</div></div>I don't disagree. And you may have another point there... perhaps this is evidence that the majority of the work is now better left to Rangers, SF, and the Teams.
That's not to take anything away from the Marines as a Branch, but I see what you mean that not using forces correctly is not the fault of the men sent on the mission.
It's not empathy I (that we all) would expect from Marines, it's the ability to follow orders. Because this is not about the 'panties' of the uninitiated, it's about the discipline upon which the Marines pride themselves.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,
Actually I believe that you are missing the point. Our conventional forces (especially the Marines) are trained to kill first and foremost. From day one every group movement is predicated upon a resounding collective "KILL" screamed at the top of every Marines lungs.
The Marine Corps has embraced the ethos of the warrior over that of the soldier. As such there is little room for respect for the dead. To us it is just meat...
If you want troops that will flawlessly execute COIN then put them through a year of training followed by an individual selection process prior to deployment.</div></div>I don't disagree. And you may have another point there... perhaps this is evidence that the majority of the work is now better left to Rangers, SF, and the Teams.
That's not to take anything away from the Marines as a Branch, but I see what you mean that not using forces correctly is not the fault of the men sent on the mission.
It's not empathy I (that we all) would expect from Marines, it's the ability to follow orders. Because this is not about the 'panties' of the uninitiated, it's about the discipline upon which the Marines pride themselves.
Re: Congressman Allen West Comments on the Marines....
Marines are trained to kill their enemy. However, they also are trained to do so professionally, with discipline and with honor. Is it hard to switch it on and off? Of course, but that's what is required and demanded.
I understand that combat puts extraordinary pressures on those placed in it, and that ordinary people cope with those pressures in ways that in normal situations could seem perverse or abnormal. That said, there is no excuse for their behavior (regardless of if they filmed it or not).
I may now be a civilian, but I expect more from my armed forces. While I’m not naive enough to think it doesn’t happen, Americans shouldn’t act like that. I especially expect more from my Marines…even more so from Scout Snipers.
The argument that the enemy is guilty of worse and that therefore it is a justification for desecrating corpses is a false one. Bottom line, if our dead were treated that way, the justifiable hue and cry would be deafening. Americans should not lower themselves to the actions of criminals and terrorists. If our benchmark for conduct and discipline is that we’re at least better than the Taliban…well then that is a sad day indeed.
Marines today would be well served to remember our history…more than once it has been public opinion that has saved us from being absorbed into the other services or deemed redundant.
Marines are trained to kill their enemy. However, they also are trained to do so professionally, with discipline and with honor. Is it hard to switch it on and off? Of course, but that's what is required and demanded.
I understand that combat puts extraordinary pressures on those placed in it, and that ordinary people cope with those pressures in ways that in normal situations could seem perverse or abnormal. That said, there is no excuse for their behavior (regardless of if they filmed it or not).
I may now be a civilian, but I expect more from my armed forces. While I’m not naive enough to think it doesn’t happen, Americans shouldn’t act like that. I especially expect more from my Marines…even more so from Scout Snipers.
The argument that the enemy is guilty of worse and that therefore it is a justification for desecrating corpses is a false one. Bottom line, if our dead were treated that way, the justifiable hue and cry would be deafening. Americans should not lower themselves to the actions of criminals and terrorists. If our benchmark for conduct and discipline is that we’re at least better than the Taliban…well then that is a sad day indeed.
Marines today would be well served to remember our history…more than once it has been public opinion that has saved us from being absorbed into the other services or deemed redundant.
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