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Suppressors Debunk the Bullshit!

Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hotcupojoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 40 cal is a pice of shit,,rickoshays---off tin--
--has no power left at all,,,,barely left a bruse....traded it next day... </div></div>

Uh Huh...

Maybe I'd be doing the world a service by throwing my .40s away; wouldn't
want to risk endangering some dumbass stupid enough to buy them. What with
them being impotent (harmless) firearms and all...

There isn't a handgun cartridge made that guarantees a one shot stop.
Does this nonsense ever stop?
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hotcupojoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 40 cal is a pice of shit,,rickoshays---off tin--
--has no power left at all,,,,barely left a bruse....traded it next day... </div></div>


Does this nonsense ever stop? </div></div>

NO. If there wasn't a pissing contest to be held, I would have to hold my piss. Do you know how hard that could become?
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

ahahahah none of you guys took this seriously. Did that link from the top not work? New post: Who's seen a round deform that well? And hey jack ass,(Harold Dale) this isnt Telephone,... It's a forum you can READ the details. Nobody said 1-2 inches... Try 9"
You're fired.
Guys take this balistic talk seriously, thats what guys on SnipersHide are good at.
Thanks in advance.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That being said however, looks at this from a physics point of view: Mega stated the important factors earlier of a slightly heavier bullet than a .40 travelling significantly faster than a .40 which means this .50GI has significantly more muzzle energy than the .40. That this round came to a stop in the BG after such a short penetration means that it managed to transfer all of it's energy into the BG very quickly which means a significant amount of trauma had to occur. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm, typical man measures somewhere between 10" - 14" from sternum to spine. 9" of penetration by a .50 that expands to 1" will cause a lot of hydastatic shock.
In the cavity of the gel, note the larger opening as well as the cracks that illuminate from center outward around the expanded point. That has to be a radiation of somewhere around 5 - 6 inches.
That is where that big bullet shines. It causes major havoc inside. You are talking about major movement and trauma to the heart, liver, lungs, spleen, possibly kidneys. </div></div>

I was hoping someone was going to catch and figure out the dynamic physics aspect to the ballistics "chart" I posted.
I owe you both a beer.



Well, let's see now...
image2443.jpg


And now with the help of an ultrasophisticated plotting and marking application (MS Paint
wink.gif
)
image2443a.jpg


<span style="color: #FF0000">RED </span> is the permanant wound cavity
<span style="color: #33CCFF">BLUE </span> is the temporary wound cavity
<span style="color: #33FF33">GREEN </span> highlights the ruler under the block. I see about 8 3/8" of penetration

Anyone care to guess what happens to anything that was previously occupying the <span style="color: #33CCFF">BLUE </span>area before impact? The temporary cavity is just that. Temporary. Anything residing there, heart, lungs, arterys, veins, etc, are going to blown out away from the point of energy dumping. These "items" will also be blown into anything situated OUTSIDE of the temporary cavity, i.e. : ribs, diaphragm, trachea, etc. Think they will just spring back into their original positions unharmed? Want a good demonstration? Fill up a tub with water, and slap the surface as hard as you can.
That round dumped all of it's energy in a span of only about 4 to 4 1/2 inches. That is a MASSIVE energy expenditure, in a very short distance, with a very large diameter radiating shockwave (about 6 1/2").

Bottom line?
I'll even lose the big technical words.

That bullet will straight fuck you up.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ahahahah none of you guys took this seriously. </div></div>
Interesting. I see a few "serious" posts concerning that round in this thread. You don't?



Jack







 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Jack,

Nice presentation. I can think of a few subjects I'd like to test the .50 GI on-Like the pigs I saw coming home from the Hernando County machine gun shoot today. I think it would have been adequate!
laugh.gif


BTW,

You'll note I did not bring Monica B., or her photo, into this discussion as it would have been unnecessary overkill. Until now that is!
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hotcupojoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 40 cal is a pice of shit,,rickoshays---off tin----has no power left at all,,,,barely left a bruse....traded it next day... </div></div>

englishdoyouspeakitdemo.jpg





Jack


 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

(( hijack )) Does anyone have anything to say about fragmenting bullets like these? I've always been curious.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nPgcVhENbos&NR=1"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nPgcVhENbos&NR=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(( hijack )) Does anyone have anything to say about fragmenting bullets like these? I've always been curious.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nPgcVhENbos&NR=1"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nPgcVhENbos&NR=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object></div></div>

This round ratained 100% of it's weight believe it or not. Not a fragmenting round.
I'm seeing a lot about "energy dumping" I rather thought that talk went to the way side...
Wound channel, and an immediate lose of blood, I.E. drop in blood presure-affecting the brain (causing the 300lb crack head to drop) I thought was the only reliable cause to produce a casuality.
Any thoughts?
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Two Shoes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He wasn't shot w/the RIGHT .40 then................
grin.gif
</div></div>
Ha!

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">[size:14pt].</span>40[/size]</span>... <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">S</span></span>hort <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">&</span></span><span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-size: 14pt">W</span></span>eak
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This round ratained 100% of it's weight believe it or not. Not a fragmenting round.
I'm seeing a lot about "energy dumping" I rather thought that talk went to the way side...
Wound channel, and an immediate lose of blood, I.E. drop in blood presure-affecting the brain (causing the 300lb crack head to drop) I thought was the only reliable cause to produce a casuality.
Any thoughts? </div></div>

Do you happen to be the same "killoften" from the 50GI forum, by any chance?

The massive shock that the trauma causes to the "target" is also a paramount cause to the incapacation, not just blood loss or blood pressure drop.

I have seen/heard mixed results about the XS rounds. I, however, am not one to simply dismiss something because it is "new". Check out the line of Barnes copper bullets and they trauma they cause. I'm all for new technology improving sport/defense. Hell, I pack a g26 with 147gr +P+ rounds. I'm all for a new "Big Bang" theory about handgun ammunition, lol.



Jack


 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

yeh, same guy. ahahah I'm double dippin.
Like you, I'm all about a round that breaks the ceiling we all thought we lived under. You used to get put in jail if you said the world wasn't flat. 45ACP is simply NOT the best round we can protect ourselves with.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

The best round we can protect ourselves with does not come from a handgun. Period.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Harold Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an opening stipud question like that,I think bottle suckers hit again!</div></div>
Thanks for the great input, Dale. Why don't you tell us how you really feel?
Yeh, I may suck on a bottle, but it seems clear to me you prefer to suck on somethin else. Fagot.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">45ACP is simply NOT the best round we can protect ourselves with. </div></div>

Nor is the 50 GI. It is simply just another handgun caliber.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

I am sorry, but some of you just don't seem to realize how retarded this argument has become.

Let me ask you this. For you guys arguing about caliber......how many rounds did you put downrange in pistol TRAINING last month? I am not talking about banging away at soda cans with a .22. I am talking about training with a goal. Fixing a problem or becoming faster/smoother/more accurate with a combat sidearm.

You can walk down the street with your .460....500...6579598x100....etc wunder pistol and think you have the baddest combat handgun known to man. I hate to tell you, it don't mean shit if the programming to use it has not been installed and debugged.

Enthusiasts argue over caliber. Professionals argue training.

How much training will you be doing with a .50GI? How much more could you do with the same budget and a 9mm? At the end of the day, who do you think would be more prepared to defend their life in a gunfight?
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

And how much does that friggin .50GI ammo cost. I roll off .45acp by the hundreds on pleasant afternoons and shoot it with the knowledge that practice makes reasonably proficient!

I've got my cans of .40, 9mm, .38., .357, .357 sig, and .45 Colt brass, ready for me to swap out tool heads and run them off as well. I don't want to get shot with any of them. But I feel pretty familiar with them by shooting them often. Thus theoretical discussions pertaining to expensive new super rounds or pissing matches about various service calibers are equivocal exercises that waste bandwidth.

On the other hand, work is crawling slow and I have time on my hands
laugh.gif
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

LW, your post is perfect. Is it better to have a 9mm with 20k rounds through it during training sessions, or have a 50AE with a single 50 box through it so you could get used to the way it hurt your hand when you empty a mag into a silhouette at 10 feet? Agree 100%. I wouldn't want to face down any trained shooter, regardless of whether he's holding a .454 or a .380. I want to be a trained and prepared shooter (I use that term and mean a person who shoots guns at targets, not at people) regardless of what caliber I'm holding.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

+100!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry, but some of you just don't seem to realize how retarded this argument has become.

Let me ask you this. For you guys arguing about caliber......how many rounds did you put downrange in pistol TRAINING last month? I am not talking about banging away at soda cans with a .22. I am talking about training with a goal. Fixing a problem or becoming faster/smoother/more accurate with a combat sidearm.

You can walk down the street with your .460....500...6579598x100....etc wunder pistol and think you have the baddest combat handgun known to man. I hate to tell you, it don't mean shit if the programming to use it has not been installed and debugged.

Enthusiasts argue over caliber. Professionals argue training.

How much training will you be doing with a .50GI? How much more could you do with the same budget and a 9mm? At the end of the day, who do you think would be more prepared to defend their life in a gunfight? </div></div>
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry, but some of you just don't seem to realize how retarded this argument has become.

Let me ask you this. For you guys arguing about caliber......how many rounds did you put downrange in pistol TRAINING last month? I am not talking about banging away at soda cans with a .22. I am talking about training with a goal. Fixing a problem or becoming faster/smoother/more accurate with a combat sidearm.

You can walk down the street with your .460....500...6579598x100....etc wunder pistol and think you have the baddest combat handgun known to man. I hate to tell you, it don't mean shit if the programming to use it has not been installed and debugged.

Enthusiasts argue over caliber. Professionals argue training.

How much training will you be doing with a .50GI? How much more could you do with the same budget and a 9mm? At the end of the day, who do you think would be more prepared to defend their life in a gunfight? </div></div>


amateurs practice until they get it right...

Professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong...

great post LW... somebody gets it!

-Wil
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Gents,
Relax, Nobody is arguing training here. Doesn't that go without saying? I agree 100% about repetition, repetition, repetition.

EXCUSE ME! if I want to debate caliber. What a fuckface I must be eh? Good greif, please don't jump down my or OUR throats to whom choose to debate all things being equal, (even shot placement) WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE ROUND? I think you made your point about the need to train untill it's a natural reflex. Boy-o-Boy did you guys come jumpin out the wood-work on that one! (hahaah easy gents, easy) But fuck-it, go carry around a BB gun. Doesn't a box of 2000 go for $5 or somethin? There ya go! Have at it boys. And in there lies MY point, it DOES matter what hits the body. And you yourself HAVE HAD many a debate about what round is more damaging or else you WOULD all be rockin a 22 as your daily cary.
So quit being such a hater gents when somebody wants to know if a quick expanding 50 hollow point is better than a 45acp.
Shit. It's a good, valid, balistic, question. <--- Did you see the period?

Debating between other shooters with a care and knowledge is what every other person on this site does. It aint no differnt than arguing which rifle round holds a better group, or drops a buck quicker than another. So... Again, good on YOUR point, about the training, but perhaps that belongs in another post. Try the search bar.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Lw said it.

All things considered? perfect shot placement etc etc. The best round is which ever one went through the money spot IE heart, brain stem. Doesn't matter if it expands or not, energy has little to do with killing power IMO, and 9mm ball through the heart kills just the same as any other projectile through the same place. I load what is reliable in my gun and can practice with as much as possible.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Seems like the Maximum energy transfer subject hasn't come up. I have quite a few years in LE. It appears to me the photo has had a shit load of energy transferred through it, or into it. I don't care for exit wounds, with exits there is lost energy. The old .45 is so effective due to slower speeds, heavier bullets transferring more energy. The 9mm's everyone complained about were going in and out without shocking the shit out of internals. 9mm will kill as quick as anything made, just have to be more precise with bullet placement. Bullet placement is critical, but so is getting the greatest energy transfer possible.

Mike
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

I have to maintain one thing about pistol ballistics. There have been two schools of thought since old Cowboy and Policeman have been arguing the point(Hint, Cowboy is Wiley Clap). One school says fast and small bullet, the other says big bullet slower. The big bullet slower usually works real well when one considers the 10mm and .45 with a big fat HP, or Flying Ashtray as we called them back in the day. The new hottie that seems to be losing for some unknown reason is the .357Sig. What other round do you know of that is capable of making swiss cheese out of IIIA?
Remember, the .45 was the end all be all some time ago, but many competitors made the .38Super, and it did pretty darn well. One can argue the merits of a certain caliber all day long. We ALL know though, that it is shot placement that rules the day. We also know that the larger the Hydrostatic shock the round offers, the faster the target is stopped. Take your pick. Shoot 'em with about four or five .357Sigs, or hit 'em once or twice with a 10mm or a .45+P+ or a .50GI.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Agreed, I do believe shock would be cause by a shitload of energy hitting the nervous system causing an overload that shuts the brain down until body can overcome the shock. If done right the body expires prior the the shock being overcome. Sounds good to me. What do you think SB45?

Mike
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

PLace a .45, 10mm, or .50GI dead center in or right next to the heart, it's a done deal. Do it with a .357Sig, same outcome. If enough hydrastatic shock is delivered to do enough damage and shut down the main functions the point of caliber becomes moot.
Of course one could forget about center mass, and just go for a head shot where again, caliber(worthy combat calibers) won't matter too much
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Growing up,I recall the police had a six shot revolver in a .357 shooting 125 grains bullets. That's what made the .357 so wicked. But I'll agree with you on big,heavy bullets though. I quess selections and placements shots are key.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Guncrafter Industries now makes the same SCHP in 230gr. At 1000fps!
That extra weight ought to really carry the round further in, and the slightly slower speed should keep the exspansion down just a tad, again helping with penatration... To that 'all might' 12" the FBI says is required. (While still expanding more than any other handheld SD round). (I've ever seen). Keep in mind the original post was about a 185gr. At 1200fps. With 8-10 inches of penatration.
$1,000,000 if anybody can name a better SD round "CENTER MASS"
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$1,000,000 if anybody can name a better SD round "CENTER MASS" </div></div>

Pretty much any rifle round.

I will PM you my address so you can send a check.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He's a nay sayer over the price and trying to convince me the round isn't deadly because it doesnt penatrate far into gelatin.</div></div>

.22's are deadly. .44's are deadly. Bullshit is arguing over the internet on if a firearm will kill you.
</div></div>

Why didn't this end here?
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Because it is a rhetorical debate that is endless.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There have been two schools of thought... One school says fast and small bullet, the other says big bullet slower... </div></div>
The .50GI will do.

Switch nails two of the thought schools, but there are a lot more. There is the gravel belly vs. tactical rifleman fight, the precision vs. volume fight, and on and on it goes…

But it is hard to debunk bullshit because it has been going on for so long. I have tried to read on it and follow it for many years. KO, since you are a Marine you should start with the history of the AR-15/M-16, because it is there that you easily see that there is yet another school of thought that involves people making this decision for you based on reasons other than why you asked.

It is an interesting debate, no matter how you pose it. If you were to experiment on 10 targets (people), it is likely that no 2 results would be alike.

I was drawn to S.L.A. Marshall’s work early in life, as a fireteam leader, especially “Men Against Fire.” In this book, he made claims that his studies in WWII revealed that many men did not fire their rifles, and that crew served weapons teams were more likely to use all of their ammo and then start taking weapons from the riflemen in order to keep fighting. Years later, I asked Maj. Dick Winters, of “Band of Brothers” fame, what he thought of S.L.A. Marshall’s claims in respect to these claims. His reply, “Total bullshit; my men fired their weapons and many more.” Fast forward several years. HBO is airing Band of Brothers and I am enjoying each episode. I find myself on High Street, Chapel Hill, NC one day just enjoying ales and lagers to watch the time pass when I wonder upon a booth set up to recruit people for the VFW. I stop and engage in conversation with an elderly gentleman, and after stating that I was a Marine and a life member, asked him about his service. He had jumped in Normandy as a Screaming Eagle. Wow. I asked him if had seen any of the “Band of Brothers” series on HBO. He said, “I watched 2 episodes and then turned it off. Total Bullshit.” One is then forced to consider: same planet - different worlds.

Switchblade’s comment took me back to something I had read when I first entered the Corps, about a battle over weapons and calibers that continues, even now. I do not think it is available online, but I will email it to anyone that PM’s me asking for it.

And the debate will continue.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Something to remember is 80 percent of all handgun wounds are non fatal. We had a guy shot through a windshield in the head. Round went into his forehead above his left eye. (Winchester 180 gr SXT .40 cal) Round penetrated approximately 2 to 3 inches. Guy stopped trying to run over the shooter but he is still alive today. They say he has a little different since of humor now but he is definately alive and well and still drinking at the same bar.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

Some posters here can't seem to detect some pretty obvious sarcasm in others' posts.

Silly, sez I.

That .50 GI looks like it *should* be a solid performer for straight-on CM shots. Possibly a bit weak for side shots on 300+lb attackers. But hey, didn't even the Glaser Safety Slug do okay for straight-on torso hits?

Penetration is not that much short of the worshipped 12 inches.

Still need to see denim and leather covered penetration.

Remember, the 12 inches of Jello standard already takes into account the penetration/velocity loss from piercing the skin.
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

it can not b said better, so ill steal it......

victory said:
It sneaks in through the night, so very well disguised, almost like a cute little bunny, then rears it's ugly head like the offspring of a tyrannosaurus slash chupacabre, with maybe a hint of 70's pimp.

Oh this is not a "how tight should I torque my rings" thread. It is the most vial and evil thread. You can not; i repeat, you can not defeat the which caliber is better topic. It will drive all who try mad and tear out their souls, leaving them broken down internet warriors, with nothing left but facts and personal experiences that no one will listen too.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Debunk the Bullshit!

lol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: killoften</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He's a nay sayer over the price and trying to convince me the round isn't deadly because it doesnt penatrate far into gelatin.</div></div>

.22's are deadly. .44's are deadly. Bullshit is arguing over the internet on if a firearm will kill you.
</div></div>
 
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